So I had set up this very lengthy mission plan that was going to take more then an hour to pull off a deep incursion behind enemy lines. I'm bobbing up to take out some SAM sights right near the FARP in the High Azer (3,0) map/terrain and I can barely stay at a hover without being over-torqued. I also noticed that I was sluggish and heavy feeling while I was flying around ducking for cover from Havocs and Hokums right at the start of the mission. I was like WTH...why is my Longbow(R) so sluggish and why am I over-torquing so much?

So I started paying attention to my Engine Torque Readout on the IHADSS and also on the Engine MFD and noticed its max was around 113%. I distinctly have memories of playing years ago and being able to over-torque to 121%.

I open my longbow anthology manual, and sure enough the description of the Engine MFD and HUD all show pics of over-torque going to 121%. It even says the range is from 0%-120%.

But then I realize I am weighted down with a full armament load and then I start to wonder if the game calculates your waypoint distances and loads you with fuel accordingly; thus, I am flying heavy at mission start since I've got such a long flight path ahead of me. I also discover that my max torque value changes with altitude and because I am in the 'High Azer' map, my max over-torque is reduced just by the effects of altitude. Thus I start to think that I have explained it away, and I am impressed that the sim is so realistically designed!


But, being the good troubleshooter that I am, I of course have to go and load other maps to see if I can get a low enough elevation map to allow me to fly at or near sea level and see if my torque goes to 121% like I remember.


The most I could get was 118%. I wonder why I remember over-torquing years ago to my full max of 121%? Was I incorrectly recalling LB1? Anyone else notice this?


Thanks ahead of time for any input you might have!
~Victor1_9er

You know, Victor1_9er, you're the sort of guy (I assume you're a guy, if you're a girl, even better!) that I would love to have a face-to-face conversation with. From your other post and this one, you clearly have an attention to detail surpassed only by my own!

As I was always bogged down with the rotor RPM bug, on my Win7 PC, I never tried to over-torque. So from recent memory, I can't recall what the situations were with varying top-end torque. In fact I can't ever remember seeing varying top-end torque limits over different terrain/altitudes, so you may have discovered something there that I never did!

Do you adjust your collective with a throttle controller or have a built-in throttle on your joystick? I know that there have been many reports (in many heli sims) with people only being able to achieve a certain torque number because they don't have their joysticks/throttles calibrated correctly. As you may be aware, if you don't calibrate your throttle, you may not be getting the full use of its range. For example, you may be pushing/pulling the throttle as far as it will go and only getting like 80% torque. On the other hand, it's surely also possible to only move the throttle lever half-way and achieve maximum over-torque.

This may not be the case but I do know, from my own experiences, that on Windows 7 (and I assume Vista) that I had to re-calibrate my joystick just about every time before I had a session of LB2. For some reason, the game would need the joystick to be re-calibrated before each session otherwise when the joystick was left centered, the heli would sideslip or nose-down or something. This *may* be the case with your throttle.

Another possibility - and in fact the most likely - is that you are flying undamaged, with both engines. I seem to remember seeing 124% or 125% torque readouts when I played. Try turning off one engine and then max-out your collective. When only one engine is running, it has to work harder, therefore more over-torque is allowed. And yes the game is very realistic, and especially for its time, as if you leave that one engine running at max torque for a length of time, it will become damaged.

You know this reminds me of the time when I was in those high mountains of Azerbaijan, and I once reached 215 knots and was at 100% torque (I have the screenshot to prove it)... after a few seconds I was reliably informed by Betty that I had damaged my main rotor! Luckily, I was coming down the steep side of a mountain range towards my FARP. I'd like to say that I landed safely, but I can't remember.

I apologize for all that talk on joysticks/throttles, I typed that in before I thought about the engines. I reckon that you have a good chance of seeing your over-torque numbers with this 'one engine' test. I've just left in the throttle text to serve as another possible explanation and for reference.

One of the bugs in running LB2 on fast systems (in addition to the useless rockets) is excessive ROTOR RPM LOW when descending rapidly or when making sudden large collective changes. I choose to call it inadvertent modelling of Vortex Ring State or Settling with Power, and try to guard against it.

Along with the bug is the SUPER ENGINES... You can get that thing up to over 160 knots in level flight that was never possible before. Climbing the heights of Azerbaijan, though, is still a chore for the straining engines.

I never paid that much attention to the maximum over-torque as I try to avoid it. 120% sounds about right to me...but it still doesn't help the 'fast cpu rotor rpm low' issue.

Indeed, I am a guy. lol. And yes I have a very intense attention to detail. I'm the one who wrote up an analysis chart for what value I need to run Turbo at back in 2010 when I first joined the forum and got LB2 up and running:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3045081/Constant_Blade_Stalls_dgvoodoo.html#Post3045081
So thanks for noticing Flyboy!

And thanks Recluse, using Turbo on my system I have been able to mitigate the CPU too fast problems and don't have rotor stalls anymore (or low rotor RPM), nor do I have super engines or HE rocket aiming problems. But this is different then being a CPU too fast problem, and I am not inclined to believe it is a too fast problem since all the other too fast issues are not bothering my game. It's more like an incorrect throttle assignment to the keyboard and joystick or exagerated altitude effect (or even more accurate effect actually), from what the game was like years ago when I played on my old system.

So here is the low-down on the top-end torque limits. I also don't have a lot of memories of their being altitude affects to over-torque limits from back in the win98 days. But sure enough now when I climb to my max altitude on any map, my over-torque value is reduced. It gets down to about 110% when I am at the highest points over the highest terrain. As for realism it makes perfect sense since at lower elevations the air is denser and the rotor lift greater for a given collective, thus the engines work harder at a given angle of attack of the rotor blades. I seriously wonder if my Anthology version of LB2 (it's version 2.09F btw) has some differences then what everyone else is using. I know the patch only brings you to version 2.09E. Would love to see someone else confirm this.

Anyway, I use my Saitek Cyborg X to control throttle and I am very careful about calibration and deadzones both in the joystick control panel and in the [alt]-[o] options menu in-game. So I am certain I am maxing the throttle and not being handicapped by settings. As far as having to re-map or recalibrate the joystick controls before playing LB2, that is a negative, Sir. The cool thing about this joystick on my system is that the profiler software automatically calibrates and then auto-loads your key-mapping profile even if you unplug and re-plug the USB mid-game. I've had to do that at times when for some reason the buttons get glitchy and stick.

I do remember going above 121% while on one engine (even as high as 124%) in the old days -- just as you said -- but I also remember being able to easily go to 121% too and that is something that I cannot do at all now. And here is something else that makes me think it is a slight bug. I uninstalled my joystick entirely to insure that the drivers were not messing up any of the throttle limits. When I played the game on "keyboard only" I made a shocking discovery. The keyboard number buttons are for quickly setting engine torque values; [1] = 10%, [2] = 20%, ... [9] = 90%, and so on and so forth with [0] = 100% (as stated in the manual). Well when I push the keyboard throttle numbers on my system here is what I get: [1] = 11%, [2] = 23%, [3] = 34%, [4] = 45%, [5] = 57%, ... [9] = 105% [0] = 117%. It is supposed to be that hitting [0] gets you to 100% and you have to manually adjust higher using [+] key to go into over-torque. But in this case the over-torque amount has been averaged into the entire number range, since as you can see that each increment is about 1.7% over what it should be, thus adding 17% to the total and getting me to 117% when I hit [0].

One might be tempted to say 'Who cares, it is only 4% difference from 121%?!' but I tested this on the lower elevation maps. When in the High Azer maps my max is only 113%, and that is a big enough difference to matter.

I'll let you know about the one engine test. And yes plunging downhill into a valley FARP after ripple launching hellfires and trying to escape a Mig-29, I've reached those high speeds and had Betty tell me 'main rotor is damaged sir.' And if you listen closely the rotor sound changes to reflect the rotor damage -- just awesome!

I had forgotten all about that. That stuff is just borderline geek!


Example of insane attention to detail:


Example of insane lack of attention to detail:


I caught you out. LOL.

Betty never says sir

Oh dear God...indeed you have caught me!!!

Bit<hing Betty never says that, but the CPG does!

Talking about your collective (throttle) observations, reminded me of some rather geeky calculations that I came up with years ago.

Extract from my Flyboy's Strategy Guide for Jane's Combat Simulations Longbow 2

Yup Yup Yup...That is so something I would do. In fact in my latest exploration of LB2, I wrote out my own personal install guide (specific to my setup); wrote up a detailed playing guide -- as in what to do an not to do to keep everything running smoothly with minimal crashes; and I wrote up a bug report to catalogue instances of crashes and what may have caused them so I could nail down what I was doing differently.

I even have a log of my debrief crashes that I have been taking note of so that perhaps I can try and see what is causing it if possible. My observations are of course anecdotal but alas they give me a sense of hope, that maybe just maybe I'll find the reason why.

I was so disgusted last night, because I played out a crazy mission where I snuck up behind two different sets of enemy Helios, switched from FCR to TADS and lazed them for accuracy right before I lit them up with my chain gun. Was so satisfying to see them explode or have their tail section break off just as I am overtaking them. Close range kills are Suh-Weeeet! But that's not why I was disgusted. Not only did I later survive a missile hit from a Mig-29 (whom I killed with a stinger), but also I took some AAA hits from a 2S6 guarding a refueling convoy. Took them out too! Then I went on to clean up a major SAM site atop a mountain and even destroyed my primary objective, which was a SAM site/communication center. My cockpit was damaged and marginal and I was limping home on one engine. Landed at my FARP and was expecting a hero’s welcome, but instead I got a crash to desktop! Grrrrr!!!

I wonder if it crashed at mission end because I changed my 'MaxCamDist' in my CA.ini file. Probably not, but oh well. That I guess is the breaks when you play a 14-year-old game. Good grief! Lol

Sounds like you're having a good time in the Azer2000 campaign, apart from the debrief crashes.

After a rather lengthy, on-off test I actually narrowed down the debrief crash on my PC to my joystick. It is a Logitech Attack3 joystick, not that that really matters. What matters is the fact, I think, that it's USB. I found that whenever I had it plugged in, I'd get a mission debrief crash to desktop - but with it unplugged I wouldn't get the crash. This is of coure a lose-lose situation, as with it plugged in - I get the crash, with it unplugged - I can't damn well fly!

Well, I say about USB, but it might be a combination of Windows 7 and USB. When I had Windows XP I was using the same joystick and didn't get the crashes.

I recall trying mightily to get TURBO to fix my rockets back on the old Win 98 P3-550 machine (with V5 5500). Never quite found the balance you have, in fact even accepting crappy frame rates, I still couldn't get rockets to work over any range approaching the ones possible with an older system. Not sure TURBO even works on my new machine, even though it is 'only' creaky old E6600 Core2Duo. Maybe it is worth a try, though. I tried assigning only a single core, but that didn't seem to do much. Almost seems like cheating to always load out with Hellfires. Due to the rocket bug, it is pretty much suicide to even TRY to do a campaign with limited armament.