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#3529319 - 03/01/12 07:45 AM Re: Friday update [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Oleg said alot of things back in the day Chivas, alot has changed since then. I bet he didn't say "by the way im bailing out of all this on day 1 of release"

You can take all of that with a pinch of very Russian salt.


Oleg has kept us in the loop much more than he should have, but the business model and what they were trying to achieve is still the same. It may be a pinch of very Russian salt in your eyes, but how is that WW2 aircombat sim being developed in your country doing?


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#3529395 - 03/01/12 10:51 AM Re: Friday update [Re: kilosierra]  
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All of this conjecture is well and good, but what happens if this business with the crewable stuff doesn't go over? If it doesn't bring in the flood of new players and their cash because it's "too hard" or "too arcade"? Will it have been a huge waste of time and effort? Just because we assume that it will go over, doesn't mean that it will.


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#3529405 - 03/01/12 11:24 AM Re: Friday update [Re: kilosierra]  
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That's indeed a risk they are into DaveP63,
In my little universe as a projectleader I'd put all goodies on hold after this extreme mess of a launch and thrown all possible resources into getting Dover accepted by the fan-base.

I have this feeling they lost more potential flyers from online squads than they'll achive with drivable tanks.

We'll get there but in a very slow pace.

#3529577 - 03/01/12 03:55 PM Re: Friday update [Re: Chivas]  
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: FIScott
It takes about 10 minuts from the release of an update post for the pertinent facts to be lost in a sea of opinions and 'old chestnuts' getting a public roasting again. It is indications like the physics re-work for ground vehicles that actually matter in terms of where the developers are trying to take the sim.

I've pondered (admittedly not extensively due to having a life) the ground vehicles inclusion and by the looks of the clip it reminds me a lot of Red Orchestra/ Darkest Hour. I had many hours enjoyment in those games so if I can do it again at some stage in the future in a decent flightsim I would be happy. I don't think I would be alone in that by any stretch of the imagination and I do not think that the wave of anti tank sentiment is an objection to that concept. Instead I think that the larger proportion of those daft enough to dip their toes in the toxic swamps of Cliffs of Dover forums are holding their breath for the major update that we all hope will set this game on the road to success. Anything that is perceived (rightly or wrongly) to derail or delay that is an instant target for hostility.



This pertinent fact about the "Destroyed ground objects have inertia" was in the first post in the latest update thread.

I agree some people could be concerned that the ground vehicle detail could take away from the air combat detail. Personally I don't see it as a concern.

Oleg has hinted a few times on the direction he wants to take his new game engine. Heres a post from kendo65 where he post a translated Oleg interview.


Originally Posted by kendo65
Regarding the debate on controllable tanks, AA, etc, I came across a pdf file I'd saved with an interview with Oleg from Feb 2009. It's an English translation of an interview originally posted on a Russian site - spread-wings.ru (?). English translation is by Luthier

http://spread-wings.ru/content/view/154/1/

Although obviously out of date there is some interesting talk about the goals they had in mind back then about SOW/COD future development. I can't post the pdf as it's 2.66MB (don't know if the pdf is still available online?), but here are some interesting excerpts (my highlights in bold)

Q: Youve stated many times in previous interviews that BoB will be drastically different from the
Il-2 series. What do you mean by that?

Oleg: Not a very easy question to answer, but Ill try to respond the best I can without divulging some secret information.

1. The engine and the system were developing is built from the ground up to allow future expansions. Each new product can be stand-alone, or it can plug in with the others starting with BoB, following the success of Pacific Fighters which proved that this model can be viable.

2. Were developing a system that is more than just a flight sim, but can be a sub sim, PT boat sim, tank sim, helicopter sim, etc. By the way, we just might have a flyable autogyro in BoB.

3. Were also writing a completely new, drastically improved online code with multiple modes and features. It can even support a server-based MMO with a monthly fee. This of course wont happen with BoB itself, but is possible on its engine, possibly made by other teams that further develop into this direction.

4. Quality level for ground and air objects is ages beyond what was one with Il-2. I dont think that such a huge leap will be possible after BoB; the only changes that can happen is increase in polycount or texture size, or more detailed interior details. Even Il-2 was often used as a reference by other developers, and BoB will even have uses for movies.

5. Were working on an add-on and expansion module that will not affect the online playing field. After BoB is released we plan to publish a set of tools that will allow end-users to:
* Create new planes;
* Create new vehicles, tanks, ships, etc;
* Create new static objects, such as building, bridges, equipment, etc;
* Create new maps, with limits on total size. Well leave large maps for ourselves, for our own new sims.


Q: And now Oleg, please go into more details on your thoughts of the future of Storm of War
compared to Il-2, given the potential youve built into the engine from the start.

Oleg: Considering what Ive said already, and given an initial commercial success of BoB, heres what I see:

1. Some number of developers internationally that worked with MSFS, and probably a large part of them too, will convert to our side. This is especially to be expected considering the recent closing of Aces studio. So these add-on developers might just start making add-ons for Storm of War. I think this might even include jets, including modern ones. At the very least I would expect someone to do Vietnam, not to mention WWI. This
should happen too. Generally WWI aircraft are easier to model and program, since they dont have such complex aerodynamics, no retractable landing gear, propeller pitch, and other advanced devices. Theres also no radio, which means theres no need to develop and record radio chatter.

2. Korea, in conjunction with RRG. Its development is now in background mode. Their
team is now working with us finishing up planes for BoB, and also modeling ships.

3. Africa, Malta, USSR. These are most appealing choices for us. Even though we know for sure that the Pacific is the most interesting subject matter for the international market, besides Battle of Britain that is. Generally the Eastern Front is a bit easier for us to do since we have loads more data on it, and theres less variety of vehicles and aircraft to model than all the other fronts.

4. Continuing combat around the English Channel, which will largely be made via expansions since well already have the main map.

5. Cooperation with other teams to create other games (perhaps by selling the engine). For example, an MMO with controllable soldiers and submarines etc. Or even a space sim around planet surfaces with somewhat realistic physics.

6. Console variants with simplified features.


You do realize this is no longer Oleg's company, run by Oleg, or headed by Oleg right? This new bunch does not have the track record earned by Oleg in my book.

Now they are nearly 1 year in, and still no look at FMs, AI, CTD, stupid DM (1 wing flying), but instead we get screens of IL-2s, and crewable tanks...

Chivas is like the last guy arguing the earth is still flat....

#3529617 - 03/01/12 04:30 PM Re: Friday update [Re: kilosierra]  
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Okay Icarus, but we will hold you to it. If we find out you are flying this sim post patch, we'll have to report you wink

Or do you mean given up on speculating ?


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#3529737 - 03/01/12 06:34 PM Re: Friday update [Re: cheesehawk]  
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Chivas Offline
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Originally Posted By: cheesehawk
Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: FIScott
It takes about 10 minuts from the release of an update post for the pertinent facts to be lost in a sea of opinions and 'old chestnuts' getting a public roasting again. It is indications like the physics re-work for ground vehicles that actually matter in terms of where the developers are trying to take the sim.

I've pondered (admittedly not extensively due to having a life) the ground vehicles inclusion and by the looks of the clip it reminds me a lot of Red Orchestra/ Darkest Hour. I had many hours enjoyment in those games so if I can do it again at some stage in the future in a decent flightsim I would be happy. I don't think I would be alone in that by any stretch of the imagination and I do not think that the wave of anti tank sentiment is an objection to that concept. Instead I think that the larger proportion of those daft enough to dip their toes in the toxic swamps of Cliffs of Dover forums are holding their breath for the major update that we all hope will set this game on the road to success. Anything that is perceived (rightly or wrongly) to derail or delay that is an instant target for hostility.



This pertinent fact about the "Destroyed ground objects have inertia" was in the first post in the latest update thread.

I agree some people could be concerned that the ground vehicle detail could take away from the air combat detail. Personally I don't see it as a concern.

Oleg has hinted a few times on the direction he wants to take his new game engine. Heres a post from kendo65 where he post a translated Oleg interview.


Originally Posted by kendo65
Regarding the debate on controllable tanks, AA, etc, I came across a pdf file I'd saved with an interview with Oleg from Feb 2009. It's an English translation of an interview originally posted on a Russian site - spread-wings.ru (?). English translation is by Luthier

http://spread-wings.ru/content/view/154/1/

Although obviously out of date there is some interesting talk about the goals they had in mind back then about SOW/COD future development. I can't post the pdf as it's 2.66MB (don't know if the pdf is still available online?), but here are some interesting excerpts (my highlights in bold)

Q: Youve stated many times in previous interviews that BoB will be drastically different from the
Il-2 series. What do you mean by that?

Oleg: Not a very easy question to answer, but Ill try to respond the best I can without divulging some secret information.

1. The engine and the system were developing is built from the ground up to allow future expansions. Each new product can be stand-alone, or it can plug in with the others starting with BoB, following the success of Pacific Fighters which proved that this model can be viable.

2. Were developing a system that is more than just a flight sim, but can be a sub sim, PT boat sim, tank sim, helicopter sim, etc. By the way, we just might have a flyable autogyro in BoB.

3. Were also writing a completely new, drastically improved online code with multiple modes and features. It can even support a server-based MMO with a monthly fee. This of course wont happen with BoB itself, but is possible on its engine, possibly made by other teams that further develop into this direction.

4. Quality level for ground and air objects is ages beyond what was one with Il-2. I dont think that such a huge leap will be possible after BoB; the only changes that can happen is increase in polycount or texture size, or more detailed interior details. Even Il-2 was often used as a reference by other developers, and BoB will even have uses for movies.

5. Were working on an add-on and expansion module that will not affect the online playing field. After BoB is released we plan to publish a set of tools that will allow end-users to:
* Create new planes;
* Create new vehicles, tanks, ships, etc;
* Create new static objects, such as building, bridges, equipment, etc;
* Create new maps, with limits on total size. Well leave large maps for ourselves, for our own new sims.


Q: And now Oleg, please go into more details on your thoughts of the future of Storm of War
compared to Il-2, given the potential youve built into the engine from the start.

Oleg: Considering what Ive said already, and given an initial commercial success of BoB, heres what I see:

1. Some number of developers internationally that worked with MSFS, and probably a large part of them too, will convert to our side. This is especially to be expected considering the recent closing of Aces studio. So these add-on developers might just start making add-ons for Storm of War. I think this might even include jets, including modern ones. At the very least I would expect someone to do Vietnam, not to mention WWI. This
should happen too. Generally WWI aircraft are easier to model and program, since they dont have such complex aerodynamics, no retractable landing gear, propeller pitch, and other advanced devices. Theres also no radio, which means theres no need to develop and record radio chatter.

2. Korea, in conjunction with RRG. Its development is now in background mode. Their
team is now working with us finishing up planes for BoB, and also modeling ships.

3. Africa, Malta, USSR. These are most appealing choices for us. Even though we know for sure that the Pacific is the most interesting subject matter for the international market, besides Battle of Britain that is. Generally the Eastern Front is a bit easier for us to do since we have loads more data on it, and theres less variety of vehicles and aircraft to model than all the other fronts.

4. Continuing combat around the English Channel, which will largely be made via expansions since well already have the main map.

5. Cooperation with other teams to create other games (perhaps by selling the engine). For example, an MMO with controllable soldiers and submarines etc. Or even a space sim around planet surfaces with somewhat realistic physics.

6. Console variants with simplified features.


You do realize this is no longer Oleg's company, run by Oleg, or headed by Oleg right? This new bunch does not have the track record earned by Oleg in my book.

Now they are nearly 1 year in, and still no look at FMs, AI, CTD, stupid DM (1 wing flying), but instead we get screens of IL-2s, and crewable tanks...

Chivas is like the last guy arguing the earth is still flat....


You do realize Oleg couldn't get it done and now Luthiers giving it a go, but their basic strategy has stayed the same.
Just because you can't see the Patch, AI, FM fixes, doesn't mean they aren't being worked on.
I'm the guy telling the earth is round, but you can't see it, so you don't believe it.


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#3529749 - 03/01/12 06:47 PM Re: Friday update [Re: kilosierra]  
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Well...party time tomorrow, pictures of a IL2, can hardly wait.

#3529761 - 03/01/12 07:01 PM Re: Friday update [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Chivas Offline
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Well...party time tomorrow, pictures of a IL2, can hardly wait.



Yes that's unfortunate, not what I was hoping for. I'm sure the developer would much rather release a patch that would make everyone happy. There is little doubt in my mind that their beta testing has shown bugs they want or need to fix before releasing it to the public for testing.

That said the cockpit of the IL-2 will be interesting to look at. Maybe they will also say a few words about other progress.


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#3529769 - 03/01/12 07:11 PM Re: Friday update [Re: DaveP63]  
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Originally Posted By: DaveP63
All of this conjecture is well and good, but what happens if this business with the crewable stuff doesn't go over? If it doesn't bring in the flood of new players and their cash because it's "too hard" or "too arcade"? Will it have been a huge waste of time and effort? Just because we assume that it will go over, doesn't mean that it will.


You have to take chances in business sometimes. The current financial situation in the genre is not good otherwise we wouldn't have to rely totally on Eastern companies to develop decent combat flight simulators. I'm hoping the new strategy of building a game engine with multiple uses will provide a substantial financial base to keep building features and addons to this combat flight sim series and future series for years.


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#3529792 - 03/01/12 07:34 PM Re: Friday update [Re: Chivas]  
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Well...party time tomorrow, pictures of a IL2, can hardly wait.



Yes that's unfortunate, not what I was hoping for. I'm sure the developer would much rather release a patch that would make everyone happy. There is little doubt in my mind that their beta testing has shown bugs they want or need to fix before releasing it to the public for testing.

That said the cockpit of the IL-2 will be interesting to look at. Maybe they will also say a few words about other progress.


What would settle people down is just to know they have fixed the CTD, its much much more important than the FPS boost.
then a few words on the FM,AI and other fixes.

Then some video of the boost in FPS because so far ive noticed slow downs and stutters in the videos from the last few weeks.

But again i guess that's too much to ask...though hope springs eternal.

#3529895 - 03/01/12 09:31 PM Re: Friday update [Re: Chivas]  
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DaveP63 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: DaveP63
All of this conjecture is well and good, but what happens if this business with the crewable stuff doesn't go over? If it doesn't bring in the flood of new players and their cash because it's "too hard" or "too arcade"? Will it have been a huge waste of time and effort? Just because we assume that it will go over, doesn't mean that it will.


You have to take chances in business sometimes. The current financial situation in the genre is not good otherwise we wouldn't have to rely totally on Eastern companies to develop decent combat flight simulators. I'm hoping the new strategy of building a game engine with multiple uses will provide a substantial financial base to keep building features and addons to this combat flight sim series and future series for years.


Maybe that should have been their focus from the beginning (marketing) instead of BoB simulator. At this late date, it almost feels like an afterthought whether it's been there all along or not.


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#3529990 - 03/01/12 11:33 PM Re: Friday update [Re: kilosierra]  
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edited for whatever smile

at least you guys are keeping the forum alive because it basically tumbleweed city regarding anything to do with actual flying here and at 1c.


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#3530000 - 03/01/12 11:57 PM Re: Friday update [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Well...party time tomorrow, pictures of a IL2, can hardly wait.



Yes that's unfortunate, not what I was hoping for. I'm sure the developer would much rather release a patch that would make everyone happy. There is little doubt in my mind that their beta testing has shown bugs they want or need to fix before releasing it to the public for testing.

That said the cockpit of the IL-2 will be interesting to look at. Maybe they will also say a few words about other progress.


What would settle people down is just to know they have fixed the CTD, its much much more important than the FPS boost.
then a few words on the FM,AI and other fixes.

Then some video of the boost in FPS because so far ive noticed slow downs and stutters in the videos from the last few weeks.

But again i guess that's too much to ask...though hope springs eternal.


I'm still quite sure the next patch with the increased frame rates will fix the CTD's issues etc. BlackSix said as much in one of his posts lost in pages of one of the update threads. Another BlackSix post lost in an update thread was that they will be adding a collision model to the trees eventually. They don't want to jump up and down and say they fixed anything unless they're absolutely sure. I think the first vehicle video was run on the old graphic engine and suspect the second one was too. Although everything is taking so long I'm just not sure anymore. As far as the slow downs and stutters they could have just as easily be caused by Youtube as the game engine.


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#3530004 - 03/02/12 12:03 AM Re: Friday update [Re: DaveP63]  
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Chivas Offline
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Originally Posted By: DaveP63
Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: DaveP63
All of this conjecture is well and good, but what happens if this business with the crewable stuff doesn't go over? If it doesn't bring in the flood of new players and their cash because it's "too hard" or "too arcade"? Will it have been a huge waste of time and effort? Just because we assume that it will go over, doesn't mean that it will.


You have to take chances in business sometimes. The current financial situation in the genre is not good otherwise we wouldn't have to rely totally on Eastern companies to develop decent combat flight simulators. I'm hoping the new strategy of building a game engine with multiple uses will provide a substantial financial base to keep building features and addons to this combat flight sim series and future series for years.


Maybe that should have been their focus from the beginning (marketing) instead of BoB simulator. At this late date, it almost feels like an afterthought whether it's been there all along or not.


It may feel like an afterthought but it has been discussed for years. Its quite a complex game engine thats taking them a considerable amount of time to get right. When its finally working they should be able to start pumping out quality addons and features. Its been a tough slogg for the developers, if they can get over the hump, things could start to look up quickly.


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#3530148 - 03/02/12 03:46 AM Re: Friday update [Re: kilosierra]  
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So...I have to wonder is it going to be the patch tomorrow or more vehicles to drive? Okay everybody say it with me now...,
patch, Patch, PATCH!!!
edit:
Sorry it's been a boring day

Last edited by KRT_Bong; 03/02/12 03:47 AM.

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#3530166 - 03/02/12 04:18 AM Re: Friday update [Re: kilosierra]  
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I prefer biatch, biatch, biatch.....!!! smile


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#3530196 - 03/02/12 06:01 AM Re: Friday update [Re: Robusti]  
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Originally Posted By: Icarus1
Originally Posted By: FIScott
Instead I think that the larger proportion of those daft enough to dip their toes in the toxic swamps of Cliffs of Dover forums are holding their breath for the major update that we all hope will set this game on the road to success. Anything that is perceived (rightly or wrongly) to derail or delay that is an instant target for hostility.



Ok, I'm daft, but you got my interest peaked, so I went over to the toxic swamp. All I saw today was a few in denial drooling over how good it was going to be when/if the patch ever shows. Seems pretty dead over there compared to two months ago. It looks like most have given up like myself.


Firstly I'm sorry I was the cause of your going over there! CoD opinions are prety much all in the trenches and I suspect that if there is an update today and its focus is on a plane for an expansion that hasn't been announced there are going to be numerous (and often unintentionally hilarious) meltdowns from grown men whose toy plane is broke.

I'm interested to see what comes out as much as anybody (actually probably not- I haven't been up since 00.01Hrs hitting my F5 key) but it seems pretty clear to me that for the time being they can't get the game fixed and will have to tinker away until they can. In the meantime the CoD Crazies will gleefully fly their forum fighters instead.

As for me I'm really enjoying RoF at the moment.

#3530198 - 03/02/12 06:07 AM Re: Friday update [Re: kilosierra]  
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All a I really want is a WWII flight sim game that works, where I can fly a combat career more or less as a real pilot would have. The minute CloD does that, I'm going to buy it.

But, in lieu of that at the moment, I making do with SF2 and RoF.

#3530202 - 03/02/12 06:23 AM Re: Friday update [Re: Chivas]  
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
..if they can get over the hump, things could start to look up quickly.

I most usually disagree with you but right here we're definately on the same page.
Not sure we/they will get there seeing how some bugs return every 2nd patch but if they do get the basics straight - oh mama.

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An Interesting Discussion on Simulations
by F4UDash4. 05/20/17 08:32 PM
Duh images
by KraziKanuK. 05/20/17 12:22 PM
Newest addition to our family
by Dart. 05/20/17 05:35 AM
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