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#3515209 - 02/09/12 08:16 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Lanzfeld113 Offline
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Well if they don't fix it there is always OFF P4 which looks outstanding.

Soon I hope. To tell you the truth the whole beta career in ROF has been a bit of a flop for me. Really leaves me wanting. I don't want to sound negative but they would have to fix SO much and it sounds like from Jason its not going to happen.

Last edited by Lanzfeld113; 02/09/12 08:19 PM.
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#3515225 - 02/09/12 08:47 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Bandy]  
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PatrickAWilson Offline
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Tx
Quote:
The AI is not going to be totally overhauled. Impossible. You need to get off that horse. And a better career is impossible to define.
Jason


@Bandy: IMHO a very badly worded question by the original poster and - hopefully Jason doesn't mind too much - maybe not the best response. For myself I am NOT talking about an AI overhaul. I am talking about incremental,evolutionary progress. Every little bit is a good thing. There is no reason to make this an all or nothing thing.

Last edited by PatrickAWilson; 02/09/12 08:48 PM.
#3515239 - 02/09/12 09:11 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Bandy]  
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RoFfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bandy
I fly with Criquet's mod, while there is a slight improvement, it isn't much at this time.


Of course, but it's best to slow the bleeding while you wait for a suture. Small improvements are highly welcome in the absence of bigger improvements.

Last edited by RoFfan; 02/09/12 09:49 PM.
#3515529 - 02/10/12 09:20 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Bandy Offline
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Wishing I was in the La Cloche
I agree fellows, I've seen enough posts and responses to have known better. It is so easy to react to a poorly worded post.

Evolution is fine, and I'm sure we'll all find out what is in store for this year very soon. At the same time, as was stated later in that thread, I think we can all agree that 'wishing' or 'dreaming' of a fine-featured day is part of being a flight sim pilot within the community.

If we didn't voice wishes we'd still have terminator AI following us through clouds, and so on...


4x2.66 GHz Xeons, XFX 4870 1 GB, 11 GB DDR2 RAM, Win7 Pro x64, 120 GB OCZ Vertex2 (MLC, Sandforce)
26" VIZIO 1920x1200, Logitech FF 3D Pro, CH pedals, Track IR4
#3517958 - 02/13/12 09:44 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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apexGP Offline
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Some excellent posts here, so far I agree with basically everything that's been stated. Without a doubt, the most significant issue that I feel is keeping this sim from achieving pure excellence right now, are the matters concerning the AI's unrealistic behavior. Personally, I feel this is the greatest immersion killer. A problem that resonates through both single-player and online co-op. And like Patrick's OP, I feel some of these issues are completely feasible to improve upon if they are given appropriate attention, like;

1) Superhuman AI scout gun accuracy in all regimes except when trailing from dead 6, where they are largely ineffective.
2) Superhuman AI gunner/turret accuracy, particularly from distances well outside of realistic effective combat ranges.
3) Superhuman AI situational awareness. They know where you are at all times when you're in range, regardless of their orientation or preoccupation with another opponent.
4) Superhuman AI visibility. With the exception of clouds, they can see through all objects to track the player's a/c and never lose sight of it.
5) No AI self-preservation or damage assessment to initiate RTB protocol.
6) Enemy AI's fixation on player's a/c regardless of accompanying AI wingmen or tactical situation.
7) AI wingmen's complete disregard for multiple AI opponents attacking player's a/c when they're not themselves engaged and in a position to assist.
8) AI wingmen's complete disregard for maintaining formation discipline or for executing direct orders.

These fixes alone would be a huge improvement on the entire RoF experience and open the door to a flood of immersive mission and campaign possibilities.

Teaching the AI basic and acceptable ACM on the other hand is a difficult proposition, but can also be accomplished, as has already been demonstrated by the work Team Diadalos has done with the 4.11 patch for IL2. Personally I believe that certain well scripted scenarios with some appropriate variability for AI pilot skill, a/c, and spatial circumstance could give a very convincing impression of AI understanding and reaction to a given tactical situation. Games from several different genres have managed to accomplish this in the past, and gave off the impression of superb AI, when really it was well executed script.

It's difficult to gauge how important 777 believes looking into the AI matter is. They've addressed a few issues already, and I'm sure everyone is thankful for that. However as far as I'm concerned, the AI issue should take precedence over a host of other matters. Obviously, priorities among players will always be split, and I also respect that 777 has a business model they believe will sustain them into the future... but I really feel they should improve upon what they already have, starting with the AI. As it stands now for me and the people I fly with, as impressive as RoF is in other departments, it's difficult to stay interested in it when these issues surface immediately upon first contact with the AI. It takes us straight out of the beautiful and convincing atmosphere that RoF accomplishes so well, and makes us feel like we're just wasting our time playing some console arcade game for the masses.

Anyway, that's my 2.

#3518174 - 02/14/12 05:19 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Redwolf2 Offline
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Well, I would happily trade the seaplanes for AI improvement work and even forgo the Channel map for a major dynamic campaign upgrade - these things are more worthy of my $$$ and are much more desirable to me.

Last edited by Redwolf2; 02/14/12 05:19 AM.
#3518347 - 02/14/12 01:29 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Yes, but they're far less tangible. Those are more in the realm of "things people believe should already be in the game." Harder to justify selling that. Besides, the AI improvement would be global, part of the free version, so you can hardly charge for that.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3518495 - 02/14/12 05:40 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: RoFfan]  
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redpiano Offline
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
Originally Posted By: Bandy
I fly with Criquet's mod, while there is a slight improvement, it isn't much at this time.


Of course, but it's best to slow the bleeding while you wait for a suture. Small improvements are highly welcome in the absence of bigger improvements.


I've only been playing since like July and I'm bled dry, I still love rise of flight but I'm picking up Over flanders fields since it's a far superior game in it's current state when compared to the totally lack luster package that is Rise of flight at that moment, combined with it's awful AI and crappy career mode. I've been playing nothing but PWCG for months with the AI and gunner mod and I'm just sick of it now, time for an overhaul but Jason says an overhaul isn't going to happen so I'll go elsewhere.

#3523922 - 02/22/12 05:05 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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R_Suppards Offline
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melb australia
I love this game, had it for two years and have been one of it's vocal fans but I'm becoming frustrated. The AI's are not just aces, they are super shots. I fly a Camel and can handle it reasonable confidently. There isn't a manoevre I do in which I spin.Flying against one ace I have no trouble. Get above and stay above and behind. But against two aces the fight is a farce. No matter what manoevre I make, I only have to be in one of their sights for a fleeting moment and I'm downed. I've had one stand on it's hind legs like a begging dog and at an impossible range take me out with around five to ten rounds max. As I was coming from behind and fairly high above him, the situational awareness was more than astounding. I've recorded several fights and watched them carefully to analyse my mistakes. I can't see any. I do not waste energy turning at max, I change direction quickly, switching from one bank to the other. I change height erratically to fox the opponent and then five enemy rounds and I've got the order of the wooden cross.
I've had OFF for the same time and never used it. I don't want to do so but I think it's time I did.


Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
#3524397 - 02/22/12 11:09 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Tbag Offline
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1. Stupid wingmen (or even flight leaders) that do not engage in a fight that you as the player is involved in a few hundred meters away
2. Enemy aircraft just turning in tight circles to the deck most of the time


The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
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