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#3515209 - 02/09/12 08:16 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Well if they don't fix it there is always OFF P4 which looks outstanding.

Soon I hope. To tell you the truth the whole beta career in ROF has been a bit of a flop for me. Really leaves me wanting. I don't want to sound negative but they would have to fix SO much and it sounds like from Jason its not going to happen.

Last edited by Lanzfeld113; 02/09/12 08:19 PM.
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#3515225 - 02/09/12 08:47 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Bandy]  
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Tx
Quote:
The AI is not going to be totally overhauled. Impossible. You need to get off that horse. And a better career is impossible to define.
Jason


@Bandy: IMHO a very badly worded question by the original poster and - hopefully Jason doesn't mind too much - maybe not the best response. For myself I am NOT talking about an AI overhaul. I am talking about incremental,evolutionary progress. Every little bit is a good thing. There is no reason to make this an all or nothing thing.

Last edited by PatrickAWilson; 02/09/12 08:48 PM.
#3515239 - 02/09/12 09:11 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Bandy]  
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Originally Posted By: Bandy
I fly with Criquet's mod, while there is a slight improvement, it isn't much at this time.


Of course, but it's best to slow the bleeding while you wait for a suture. Small improvements are highly welcome in the absence of bigger improvements.

Last edited by RoFfan; 02/09/12 09:49 PM.
#3515529 - 02/10/12 09:20 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Wishing I was in the La Cloche
I agree fellows, I've seen enough posts and responses to have known better. It is so easy to react to a poorly worded post.

Evolution is fine, and I'm sure we'll all find out what is in store for this year very soon. At the same time, as was stated later in that thread, I think we can all agree that 'wishing' or 'dreaming' of a fine-featured day is part of being a flight sim pilot within the community.

If we didn't voice wishes we'd still have terminator AI following us through clouds, and so on...


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#3517958 - 02/13/12 09:44 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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apexGP Offline
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Some excellent posts here, so far I agree with basically everything that's been stated. Without a doubt, the most significant issue that I feel is keeping this sim from achieving pure excellence right now, are the matters concerning the AI's unrealistic behavior. Personally, I feel this is the greatest immersion killer. A problem that resonates through both single-player and online co-op. And like Patrick's OP, I feel some of these issues are completely feasible to improve upon if they are given appropriate attention, like;

1) Superhuman AI scout gun accuracy in all regimes except when trailing from dead 6, where they are largely ineffective.
2) Superhuman AI gunner/turret accuracy, particularly from distances well outside of realistic effective combat ranges.
3) Superhuman AI situational awareness. They know where you are at all times when you're in range, regardless of their orientation or preoccupation with another opponent.
4) Superhuman AI visibility. With the exception of clouds, they can see through all objects to track the player's a/c and never lose sight of it.
5) No AI self-preservation or damage assessment to initiate RTB protocol.
6) Enemy AI's fixation on player's a/c regardless of accompanying AI wingmen or tactical situation.
7) AI wingmen's complete disregard for multiple AI opponents attacking player's a/c when they're not themselves engaged and in a position to assist.
8) AI wingmen's complete disregard for maintaining formation discipline or for executing direct orders.

These fixes alone would be a huge improvement on the entire RoF experience and open the door to a flood of immersive mission and campaign possibilities.

Teaching the AI basic and acceptable ACM on the other hand is a difficult proposition, but can also be accomplished, as has already been demonstrated by the work Team Diadalos has done with the 4.11 patch for IL2. Personally I believe that certain well scripted scenarios with some appropriate variability for AI pilot skill, a/c, and spatial circumstance could give a very convincing impression of AI understanding and reaction to a given tactical situation. Games from several different genres have managed to accomplish this in the past, and gave off the impression of superb AI, when really it was well executed script.

It's difficult to gauge how important 777 believes looking into the AI matter is. They've addressed a few issues already, and I'm sure everyone is thankful for that. However as far as I'm concerned, the AI issue should take precedence over a host of other matters. Obviously, priorities among players will always be split, and I also respect that 777 has a business model they believe will sustain them into the future... but I really feel they should improve upon what they already have, starting with the AI. As it stands now for me and the people I fly with, as impressive as RoF is in other departments, it's difficult to stay interested in it when these issues surface immediately upon first contact with the AI. It takes us straight out of the beautiful and convincing atmosphere that RoF accomplishes so well, and makes us feel like we're just wasting our time playing some console arcade game for the masses.

Anyway, that's my 2.

#3518174 - 02/14/12 05:19 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Well, I would happily trade the seaplanes for AI improvement work and even forgo the Channel map for a major dynamic campaign upgrade - these things are more worthy of my $$$ and are much more desirable to me.

Last edited by Redwolf2; 02/14/12 05:19 AM.
#3518347 - 02/14/12 01:29 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Yes, but they're far less tangible. Those are more in the realm of "things people believe should already be in the game." Harder to justify selling that. Besides, the AI improvement would be global, part of the free version, so you can hardly charge for that.




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#3518495 - 02/14/12 05:40 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
Originally Posted By: Bandy
I fly with Criquet's mod, while there is a slight improvement, it isn't much at this time.


Of course, but it's best to slow the bleeding while you wait for a suture. Small improvements are highly welcome in the absence of bigger improvements.


I've only been playing since like July and I'm bled dry, I still love rise of flight but I'm picking up Over flanders fields since it's a far superior game in it's current state when compared to the totally lack luster package that is Rise of flight at that moment, combined with it's awful AI and crappy career mode. I've been playing nothing but PWCG for months with the AI and gunner mod and I'm just sick of it now, time for an overhaul but Jason says an overhaul isn't going to happen so I'll go elsewhere.

#3523922 - 02/22/12 05:05 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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I love this game, had it for two years and have been one of it's vocal fans but I'm becoming frustrated. The AI's are not just aces, they are super shots. I fly a Camel and can handle it reasonable confidently. There isn't a manoevre I do in which I spin.Flying against one ace I have no trouble. Get above and stay above and behind. But against two aces the fight is a farce. No matter what manoevre I make, I only have to be in one of their sights for a fleeting moment and I'm downed. I've had one stand on it's hind legs like a begging dog and at an impossible range take me out with around five to ten rounds max. As I was coming from behind and fairly high above him, the situational awareness was more than astounding. I've recorded several fights and watched them carefully to analyse my mistakes. I can't see any. I do not waste energy turning at max, I change direction quickly, switching from one bank to the other. I change height erratically to fox the opponent and then five enemy rounds and I've got the order of the wooden cross.
I've had OFF for the same time and never used it. I don't want to do so but I think it's time I did.


Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
#3524397 - 02/22/12 11:09 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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1. Stupid wingmen (or even flight leaders) that do not engage in a fight that you as the player is involved in a few hundred meters away
2. Enemy aircraft just turning in tight circles to the deck most of the time


The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - Douglas Adams
#3524457 - 02/23/12 01:09 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: redpiano]  
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Originally Posted By: redpiano
Jason says an overhaul isn't going to happen so I'll go elsewhere.


I took that to mean that there couldn't be a ground-up rebuilding, not to mean that nothing else would be
looked at, adjusted, fixed, as time and resources permit.
I'll leave it to Jason to correct me there if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain I have it right.

#3524463 - 02/23/12 01:21 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Gambit21]  
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Originally Posted By: Gambit21
Originally Posted By: redpiano
Jason says an overhaul isn't going to happen so I'll go elsewhere.


I took that to mean that there couldn't be a ground-up rebuilding, not to mean that nothing else would be
looked at, adjusted, fixed, as time and resources permit.
I'll leave it to Jason to correct me there if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain I have it right.


I suspect and hope so; I find it hard to believe that Jason and 777 would consider the current state of the AI acceptable in the long haul . . .

Last edited by Nimits; 02/23/12 01:21 AM.
#3524472 - 02/23/12 01:31 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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I'm not so sure, take a look at the banner plastered on the main site.



"superb AI"?

The blog update at least mentioned "future improvements on things such as AI" but it's obviously not a focus of theirs which is what gets me, the AI is such an important thing and effects nearly everyone that plays ROF, even the multiplayer guys often fight against the absurd AI gunners.

#3525380 - 02/24/12 04:54 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Ai improvment?

I would like to see REAL WWI tactics!

- German ruse: multi altitude protection of heavies and reco
- German ruse (and later used by allies): the false spin down to the deck
- Defensive circles for the heavies and reco
- Better and more intelligent Ace behaviors
- Better protection for aces
- Lone wolf aces
- German pilots trying to stay/fight over their own territories
- 1918 tactic: multi-squadron large sweep
- Advantage-only engagements

Last edited by SHar82; 02/24/12 04:59 PM.

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#3525384 - 02/24/12 05:01 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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I have played a lot of flying games and the AI in RoF is really good. The problem is the longer you play the better you get and then you start to notice all the problems with the AI and you start to take advantage of those problems.

AI will always be the weakest part of a flight simulation. There is no way around that but to be fair to RoF they have a pretty good AI all things considered.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3525485 - 02/24/12 07:17 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Frankly, AI is the weakest part of any game that relies on it, from chess to racing to strategic combat.



The Jedi Master


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#3525641 - 02/24/12 10:37 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Master
I have played a lot of flying games and the AI in RoF is really good. The problem is the longer you play the better you get and then you start to notice all the problems with the AI and you start to take advantage of those problems.

AI will always be the weakest part of a flight simulation. There is no way around that but to be fair to RoF they have a pretty good AI all things considered.


Good how?

You mean cheap? Super accurate and able to fly the aircraft perfectly without fault? Then yes, the AI is amazing.

But as this thread and about a thousand others made by people complaining, shows that the AI is rather crap. Especially compared to other flight sims out there, OFF has surprisable AI that has blind spots, IL2's recent user made update has surprisable AI with blind spots and then there's WOV BOB2 which supposedly has the best AI ever.

Rise of flight's AI can't even sustain a horizontal turn, they don't boom and zoom anymore, they don't try to maneuver for a better position, they just turn at you and shoot when you happen to be in their sights.

#3528457 - 02/29/12 06:37 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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melb australia
Over on ROF forum the problems of the unrealistic AI's has generated the longest post ever. So it is a real problem. Tom Cundall and I have both flown many hours in Tiger Moths. These are very close in performance to the SE5a. Tom raised the issue of engine vibration affecting accuracy. There has been input from some who have had a great deal of experience with firing military weapons. Modern ammunition has more projectile punch than the old 303 and so a straighter trajectory. Yet they still experienced a low rate of hits per round. Everything Pat Wilson says I agree with. Situational awareness, accuracy etc are more than uncanny. As I said earlier, in QMB I can take a single ace DVa with no trouble. I can wipe the floor with two veterans, but so far I have never survived two aces. Why? Because the second I get in the sights of one, no matter what distance, no matter what manoevre he and I are in I'm cat's meat. Someone earlier invoked the Dicta Boelke. I never get down to my opponent's level. The old Mick Mannock always above, seldom on the same level, never below is part of my DNA, Yet no matter how far away I am, one will rear up like an angry cobra and bite me. Today it happened again. Ten rounds from a plane standing on it's tail and in the flight record I viewed later, so far away it was almost impossible to locate it.
On the matter of accuracy I suggest you read Tom's analysis of the death of MVR. Nothing shows the absurdity of the AI's accuracy better than this. As Tom is, I believe, writing a thesis on WW I aerial combat believe me he is cluey. He points out MVR was flying straight and head on the the ground fire, so no deflkection shooting, was being hammered by multiple guns, many on fixed ground tripods and yet ONLY ONE BULLET struck the plane.
As I said earlier I am more than frustrated and have installed OFF. Just going over to sorting out the controls and fly it.It's a pity it has come to this as I have been an enthusiastic advocate for ROF.

edited note. Master, I like your comment, the longer you fly the better you get. I have around 600 hours in RL Tiger moths, I have been flying ROF for two years, I can do any manoevre with impunity in a Camel, yet I can't dodge an ace AI. Please tell me what I'm doing wrong.
If Jason is serious in even keeping present users I hope and pray he will listen to disgruntled users and do something to rectify this absurd situation

Last edited by R_Suppards; 02/29/12 06:42 AM.

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#3528498 - 02/29/12 08:58 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Heya R_S,

Quote:

Master, I like your comment, the longer you fly the better you get. I have around 600 hours in RL Tiger moths, I have been flying ROF for two years, I can do any manoevre with impunity in a Camel, yet I can't dodge an ace AI. Please tell me what I'm doing wrong.


I think it means the longer you fly RoF, the easier it is to predict the AI ( as with any sim,really ).

But I find it strange that you can't dodge 2 Ace AI in Alby DVas - and since you mentioned your apparent skills in a Camel, I thought I'd fire up a QMB to see what you mean.

Well, 2 Albies down and a prefectly fine Camel brought back to base.

I imagine your question is rhetorical....but, What are you doing wrong?

Simplest answer is: "Not what everyone else is doing that doesn't have a problem with 2 Ace AI".

...doesn't help much, but without a track attached to your post, kinda' hard to give you a better answer then that.

Other than maybe, your hours and hours of Tiger Moth time doesnt seem to be doing you any favors or give you that advantage you think you have.

I recorded the mission of you'd like to swap tracks.

S!


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#3528607 - 02/29/12 02:22 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Quote:
1918 tactic: multi-squadron large sweep


This.

Only way it will happen (and it probably never will) is if they go back to how the game was in the beginning. One could fly with 4 AI wingman online. So 3 players could get 15 planes in formation, like IL2.

Not enough people in MP servers to do this as it is now, and offline AI formation are limited to 5 planes, so these large (historical) squadron sweeps will never be seen in this game.

Also, rear turret guns are absolute pain in the ass to use. They're buggy as hell. If the pilot controls were as buggy, I'm sure they would fix them. It's beyond me why they wont fix turret guns. I dont fly, or buy, 2 seaters anymore.

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