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#3516342 - 02/11/12 03:15 AM Re: SAM Simulator **** [Re: Hpasp]
Hpasp Online   grunt
Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 950
Loc: Hungary, Europe
You will have the possibility to fight through the Linebacker-II champaign from the Vietnamese SAM crew point of view.
From the early successes, till the hopeless battles at the end of December against the full wrath of the USAF.



7:45pm 18th of December, 1972. Eightyfour plane is participating in the firs wave, during Night-1 of the Linebacker-II raid against Hanoi, the biggest bombardment of a city since World War-II. 48 B-52 will deliver carpet bombing against the Hoa Lac, Kep, and Phuc Yen AFB's, beside Kinh No Industrial Complex, and Yen Vien Railroadyard. The supporting force consist of 36 F-4E Phantom-II, 6 F-105G Wild Weasel, 2 EB-66B Destroyer, 2 EA-6B Prowler, 1 EC-135 Looking Glass and 1 EC-121H AWACS. The nine SA-2 battery, defending Hanoi is firing 20 missiles during 11 engagements. B-52G `Charcoal-01` is shot down by the 59th SAM Battery, Lt Col Donald Louis Rissi, Lt Robert James Thomas, Sgt Walter Lee Ferguson dies. Maj Richard Edgar Johnson, Cpt Robert Glenn Certain, and Cpt Richard Thomas Simpson are survives the ejection. Four other B-52's are hit (56-0678, 56-0583, 56-0592, 58-0254), but able to fly back to base.

4:40am 19th of December, 1972. Hundred plane is participating in the third wave, during Night-2 of the Linebacker-II raid against Hanoi, the biggest bombardment of a city since World War-II. 51 B-52 will deliver carpet bombing against the Kinh No Industrial Complex (18 B-52), Gia Lam Rail Road Yard (12 B-52), and the Hanoi Radio (21 B-52). The supporting force consist of 36 F-4E Phantom-II, 6 F-105G Wild Weasel, 2 EB-66B Destroyer, 2 EA-6B Prowler, 1 EC-135 Looking Glass and 1 EC-121H AWACS. The nine SA-2 battery, defending Hanoi is firing 35 missiles during 16 engagements. B-52D `Rose-01` is shot down, Cpt. Richard Cooper, and TSgt. Charlie Poole dies. Cpt. Hal Wilson, Cpt. Charles Brown, Maj. Fernando Alexander, and Cpt. Henry Barrows are survives the ejection. B-52D `Rainbow-01` is also hit, but able to fly back to base.

13:45 19th of December, 1972. SR-71 bomb damage assessment flight number one.

14:40 19th of December, 1972. SR-71 bomb damage assessment flight number two.

26th of December 1972, the largest formation of B-52s ever assembled into a single wave (120 B-52's along with 101 support planes, EB-66 & EA-6B ECM, F-4 Chaff/CAP, F-105 & A-7 Iron Hand) attacking 9 targets within North Vietnam.The 361st Air Defense Divisions three SAM regiments defending Hanoi, launched 45 missiles during the attack. B-52D No.56-0584 Ash-01 was hit by 261/93 SAM Battery, and crashed at U-Tapao. B-52D No.56-0674 Ebony-02 was shot down by 257/76 SAM battery. B-52D No.55-0062 Cream-01 was hit, but safely Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. B-52D No.55-0090 Cream-02 was hit, safely landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. B-52D No.56-0629 Black 03 was hit, landed at U-Tapao. 63 manhours to repair fourteen external holes plus three dents.

11:00pm 27th of December, 1972. 161 plane is participating in the bombing of Hanoi during Night-9. 39 B-52 will deliver carpet bombing against three SAM sites, Duc Noi, Trung Quang Railroad Yard, and Van Dien Supply. The nine SA-2 battery, defending Hanoi is firing 30 missiles during 17 engagements. B-52D 56-0605 Cobalt-01 is shot down by the 72nd SAM battery, Maj Allen Louis Johnson, and Lt Bennie Lamar Fryer dies. Cpt Frank Douglas Lewis, Cpt Samuel Bolden Cusimano, Maj James Carrol Condon, and MSgt James Wayne Gough are survives the ejection. B-52D 56-0599 Ash-02 is also hit and lost all 4 engines on left wing, all crew members were bailed out over Laos, and rescued.

10:15pm 28th of December, 1972. 135 plane is participating during Night-10 of the Linebacker-II raid against Hanoi. 36 B-52 will deliver carpet bombing against two SAM sites, the SAM missile storage base, and Duc Noi. The SA-2 battery's, defending Hanoi is firing only 6 missiles during 4 engagements.

11:20pm 29th of December 1972, the last night of Linebacker-II. 162 plane is participating in the raid against Hanoi. 27 B-52 will deliver carpet bombing against the Phuc Yen SAM missile storage. The SAM battery's, defending Hanoi is firing only 6 missiles during 3 engagements.
After this bombing, North Vietnamese agreed to release a total of 591 American prisoners of war.


Edited by Hpasp (02/11/12 03:42 AM)

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#3516526 - 02/11/12 10:25 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
Lonewolf357 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 59
Waiting impatiently!

I'm still quite surprised, though, how few of B-52's were shot down there, compared to our results in SAM Sim. It looks that we're still missing something important... I guess, jamming in reality was more effective, and we're still don't have chaff clouds on our radar screens - they only affect missile's proximity fuzes - they would not allow us to track the targets by burning through their active jamming, since Dvina lacks the SDC mode, unlike Volhov. Maybe, that's the case... Or maybe something else...

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#3516532 - 02/11/12 10:44 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
piston79 Online   sleepy
Member

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 395
I guess, jamming in reality was more effective, and we're still don't have chaff clouds on our radar screens - they only affect missile's proximity fuzes - they would not allow us to track the targets by burning through their active jamming, since Dvina lacks the SDC mode

I think you're right... thumbsup

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#3516556 - 02/11/12 11:26 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lonewolf357]
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 3065
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357
Waiting impatiently!

I'm still quite surprised, though, how few of B-52's were shot down there, compared to our results in SAM Sim. It looks that we're still missing something important... I guess, jamming in reality was more effective, and we're still don't have chaff clouds on our radar screens - they only affect missile's proximity fuzes - they would not allow us to track the targets by burning through their active jamming, since Dvina lacks the SDC mode, unlike Volhov. Maybe, that's the case... Or maybe something else...


Well I for one don't agree with this (at least I don't agree 100%):
-> First, SAM Simulator while extremelly realistic is still like any other realistic simulation a GAME which together with all realism is also suposed to be FUN! Like any game, concessions must be made in order to make simulations FUN and one of those concessions is exactly the fact that the player can ALWAYS kill more enemies than in real life would be possible. Don't forget that there are scenarios in SAM simulator where NO enemy plane was shot down in real life (some "war of attrition" scenarios for example) so if the action in those scenarios happened 100% like it happened in real life than what's the fun and point of playing these simulations?
-> Jamming (ECM) and Chaff aren't and were never "magical" solutions - Planes deploying ECM and Chaffs have been shot down in the past and will be in the future! "Home on Jam" modes and "burn through" are there to limit the effectiveness of ECM and Chaffs! Note that 100% effective countermeasures is a thing that doesn't exist at all! And all radar and systems are capable of "burning through" enemy ECM and this certainly includes the Dvina! The Volhov is more effective in burning through enemy ECM not because of SDC modes but because of it's LORO mode (narrow beam which concentrates more energy on a spot and thus being able to defeat ECM at longer ranges and the Dvina for example). So in the end the "burning through enemy ECM" is only a matter of distance/range which the target is from the radar emmiter - some systems are able to defeat ECM at longer ranges than others but every system is able of "burning through" enemy ECM.

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#3516587 - 02/11/12 12:40 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lonewolf357]
Hpasp Online   grunt
Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 950
Loc: Hungary, Europe
I'm still quite surprised, though, how few of B-52's were shot down there, compared to our results in SAM Sim. It looks that we're still missing something important... I guess, jamming in reality was more effective, and we're still don't have chaff clouds on our radar screens - they only affect missile's proximity fuzes - they would not allow us to track the targets by burning through their active jamming, since Dvina lacks the SDC mode, unlike Volhov. Maybe, that's the case... Or maybe something else...

Yes we are missing one thing...
... in reality they had only ONE CHANCE.

No possibility to retry any situation.

If we compare our performance the first time in a new situation, with the historical one...

And still we are not in life or death situation at our computer.
Some of the most brave officers had a mental breakdown during battle, and fell into hopeless panic before their instruments in real wartime...

Do you recognize this van?
Can you imagine yourself sitting in it?







Edited by Hpasp (02/11/12 12:43 PM)

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#3516594 - 02/11/12 12:48 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
PN79 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 59
ONE CHANCE

That is exact. The first time I tried Vietnam scenario after training and some War of Attrition missions I looked at board and P-18 screen (Volkhov) - what the hell - I was destroyed by ARM without downing any aircraft.


Edited by PN79 (02/11/12 12:49 PM)

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#3516606 - 02/11/12 01:19 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
piston79 Online   sleepy
Member

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 395
Do you recognize this van?
Can you imagine yourself sitting in it?


Looks like SA-3...
Where is this? Serbia?

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#3516621 - 02/11/12 02:00 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 3065
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Yes we are missing one thing...
... in reality they had only ONE CHANCE.

No possibility to retry any situation.

If we compare our performance the first time in a new situation, with the historical one...

And still we are not in life or death situation at our computer.
Some of the most brave officers had a mental breakdown during battle, and fell into hopeless panic before their instruments in real wartime...


Excelent points Hpasp and I completly agree with you!

For example the first time that I tried a LinebakerII scenario (one of the two B-52 bombings missions) I also wasn't able to shoot down anyone and I was destroyed very soon by an enemy ARM (Shrike if I'm not mistaken).

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#3516632 - 02/11/12 02:25 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
wasfa Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 123

it's an SA-3 Ynk cabin.
is seems more like an road accident
really lucky to not be burned inside


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#3516650 - 02/11/12 02:50 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]
Lonewolf357 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 59
Indeed, the psychological factor is the key one (been in nasty situation once, where my life was in danger, and will totally agree that when adrenaline flows over the edge, precision operations, such as those behind the SAM console, would be very difficult), as well as our ability to replay any mission as much times as we want. It would be interesting to try all the new missions for the first time, to see, which results we might achieve in these situations, at totally unknown environments. I also bet if the real SAM operators would have such a simulator, with all the bells and whistles, such as jamming, ARMs, "smart", responding, targets, for their practice, they could also achieve more impressive results.

It is noteworthy however, that we didn't had any previous training when we started to play SAM simulator, unlike real-world operators, which were taught how to do that - albeit that training was highly inadequate at many times and was lagging behind the technical progress, especially in case with Vietnam, where Soviet advisors and their Vietnamese "students" had to learn simultaneously in battles to new countermeasures and tactics. That's why I would like to see more and more combat situations in the first place, to diversify the combat environments.

I also disagree with Ricnunes when he says that the "fun factor" should exist. That's what makes Simulator different from Game, a realism. Even if we will be able to shot down one enemy aircraft in conditions where real-world operators downed none, that would certainly be a highly rewarding experience, as in case with SR-71, for example.

Hpasp, thank you for your superb work, for your dedication and your willingness to listen to us and explain all the things to us! Eagerly waiting for new versions!


Edited by Lonewolf357 (02/11/12 02:55 PM)

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