To be honest, I don't think that there really is a huge market of "casual flight simmers" out there.
There are not even many people interested in arcade style flying games. While the Ace Combat series on the PS2 sold well, with two of the titles earning the "Greatest Hits" label they are still rather unknown and low profile. The latest entry, Assault Horizon, have to shift its focus towards being a CoD style clone with jets because the team was told they were not selling enough copies of the previous Ace Combat style. It would also explain why the few arcade flight games released were done by smaller companies. And the number of these games (Lethal Skies, Aero Elite) have been deceasing steadily over the years.
If casual gamers do not have enough interest in Ace Combat style games, I don't see how something more realistic will sell extremely well. They probably would have a more solid market if they stuck with FSX style realism/gameplay.
While I agree that the 'casual flight sim' market is a bit of a risk for mainstream adoption, your cited AC series numbers look a bit off. The AC6:AH alone has sold about 500,000 units world-wide, with the AC6 before that (just Xbox exclusive) being around 900,000 - and AH still has some more legs in it - plus this is console titles at $60 a pop.
To put it in to perspective, Namco/PA have made more money in 'flight sims' (chuckle) than Maddox Games, Eagle Dynamics and any other of the sims we love to play by a factor of about 10 (guessing, unless the DCS series made more than $20 million and they just keep quiet about it lol). Ironically, Microsoft FSX was the last 'mainstream' money-maker for a large publisher (if you ignore Ubisoft's hands-off approach of SH and CloD)
Microsoft will make a profit on Flight, and might have a new franchise to attract console players (perhaps not the 360, but the one after it) - and the idea of 'putt putt'ing around Maui on the 50' TV with friends' could appeal in large numbers.
Personally it's not what I like, i.e. I'd prefer chess over checkers, but I don't see the harm in a world where lots of different types of players exist. Maybe some of them will go on to wanting a more 'hardcore' experience - and all boats float up etc. Given that FSX was dead, and that Prepare3d exists, there's no harm in Microsoft Flight for our hobby.
I'm just saying that despite the series being popular, and for it is (aside from AH) a perfect game, the sales are still very low compared to other genres. For example, Dead Space 2 sold two million copies and that is hardly a year old. And the Ace Combat series has not had any competition for some years. HAWX 1/2 were very poor. Wings of Prey and Apache Air Assault might count, though I believe those fall more into the Strike Fighters category as a "light sim".
I seem to recall the AC AH devs claiming that Namco was considering to stop funding the series, which is largely the reason for the gameplay change, which did not work out so well.
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#3516166 - 02/11/1202:06 AMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: MedinaES]
How many people have purchased ONE addon for FS... in the history of the game. I am wiling to bet that 100,000 would be a GROSS overstatement. But even if it were, No software publisher is interested in Developing a significantly complex simulator for 100,000 potential customers.
Now, how many have purchased 2... 3... 4 or more addons. Those numbers are falling precipitously.
Face it, gentlemen (and ladies if there are any of you out there).... we are a lousy customer base.
FS became what is it because twenty some odd years ago, before ABSOLUTE corporate interest took over, a bunch of geeks with mad coding skillz and a passion for aviation created FS and all its progeny. They made an engine that was fairly open and mod friendly that allowed the cottage industry of addons to sprout of and flourish (I did not say prosper). FSX is the culmination of years, if not decades of development. To think that somebody could make something as good today from scratch is folly.
As far as Flight is concerned, I look at it as the logical (albeit distasteful to many of us) progression of the genre in a world where its all about the bottom line.
Last edited by LawnDartLeo; 02/13/1205:16 AM.
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#3516193 - 02/11/1203:01 AMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: MedinaES]
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 9,703Blade_RJ
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Blade_RJ
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Hotshot
we are not a lousy consumer base, they are the one wasting money on huge adds for a game and then wanting those ads to be paid, i said many times, if they lower the budget for marketing,games wouldnt need to get so much sales and could even be cheaper. back in the day you saw a magazine add, some banner on the retail, and at most a tv add, now we have trailers and more trailers,adds everywhere in every gaming site, etc.
#3516201 - 02/11/1203:15 AMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: MedinaES]
Joined: Jan 2001 Posts: 3,868Duchess
(Formerly Joe Stallin')
Im thinking maybe we'll have to have an active input in flight Sims of the future? Perhaps paying a company to do the coding, but have us the simmers do some of the research legwork.
#3516207 - 02/11/1203:22 AMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: MedinaES]
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 9,703Blade_RJ
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Blade_RJ
Simhq Weather man, dropping rain in your parade
Hotshot
are you kidding stalin ? dont you remember il-2 ? how vocal one group was that flight model should be this, while the other disagree and so forth..the game wouldnt ever get made,lol.
#3516268 - 02/11/1206:41 AMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: MedinaES]
It's not aimed at a bunch of gripey old guys that have been hanging around the same forum for a decade and have been playing sims since the 80's.
Remember the microsoft sticks planes in the 80's? What are we playing now?. What will the new generation that will pick up microsft flight be playing in a decades time?, Photo real sims in their 360 degree gaming visors?.
The more flight sims on the market the better, keeps the genre buoyant .
#3516344 - 02/11/1211:26 AMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: WileECoyote]
As others said, the market that they are targeting doesn't exist, and won't exist. Period.
Absolutely agree. But MS seems to have the best marketing team in the world. Maybe they see something we don't. I don't like whatever they're seeing, though..
"It ebbs and flows, shipmate. A hot woman and a cold beer will put all this in proper perspective."
#3516416 - 02/11/1202:36 PMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: Rodney]
WileECoyote is correct. The market doesn't exist for Flight, although the game will sell initially brcause of simplayers who are desperate for something completely new, and their curiousity will get the better of them. Then they'll realize how lame Flight is, how totally inadequate it is to real flight simulation - You can only fly around Hawaii, and there are no A.I. aircraft! Some will hang on to Flight because they are embarrased to have purchased it, and will rationalize their purchase by saying "well, MS plans to reproduce the rest of the world (not true) and A.I. aircraft (also, not true).
I love both FS9 and FSX. I usually fly low and slow GA aircraft for visual treats, and thats what I get with FSX, GEX, REX2, and the graphics and autogen sliders pushed all the way to the max. And I want to fly over any major city in the world. I fly over the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Africa, Antartica, and a hundred different locales in the USA. I WANT THE WHOLE DOGGONE WORLD! And sometimes I do want to get into a 737 and fly from Montreal to MExico City, or from Reykavik, Iceland to Rome, Italy. And I want the option to do that OUT OF THE BOX. I want the option to fly lots of different aircraft, including helicopters, OUT OF THE BOX.
i don't want a game; I want a simulation. Flight sucks.
Last edited by Plainsman; 02/11/1202:57 PM.
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#3516469 - 02/11/1204:25 PMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: MedinaES]
Joined: Oct 2010 Posts: 2,231HogDriver
Retired Flight Simmer
Plainsman, MS Flight is free to play. The only thing you buy is the addons.
I agree with what has been said before. The market they are aiming at doesn't exist, and casual gamers will get bored after 5 minutes with nothing to shoot at.
Even if a casual gamer found some interest in flight sims after this, where would he go next? 6 year old FSX, if you can still find it instore? X-Plane 10, which would probably put them off flight sims? (not very noob friendly is what I mean) Strike Fighters 2, which is only available online and they probably won't be aware of it? I can't see them going for DCS A-10C because of the complexity.
I'm sorry, but I can't see Flight being in any way GOOD for the flight sim business. If Flight fails spectacularly, it's probably going to make other publishers even more scared to make a flight sim.
I refuse to buy a flight sim that I have no interest in playing, on the off chance that MAYBE someday they'll make the one I really want to play.
#3516533 - 02/11/1206:48 PMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: HogDriver]
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,603malibu43
Senior Member
Can you guys site the data/research to back this up?
As for me I only use logic and observing people I know (my friends and the local gaming community in which I'm a member). Flight seems to be too boring to the casual gamers and will still be too complicated. These are the people who say that landing airplanes in Strike Fighters difficult, anyway. As for hardcore simmers, many here have stated the reasons why.
"It ebbs and flows, shipmate. A hot woman and a cold beer will put all this in proper perspective."
#3516561 - 02/11/1207:38 PMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: magicalflyer]
The problem is, some people assume hardcore simmers won't buy addons for Flight. If these addons are realistic enough, I have no problem at all. In fact I find that way much easier, with everything in just one marketplace.
Besides, Strike Fighters is not a hardcore simulator and there it is people buy it and having fun.
MS Flight developers have already said there is no limitation on what they can do. It's just a matter of support. If people say I want them to fail, no matter what, then of course MS Flight will fail.
This is the same story since any version of FS, when FSX was about to be released people complaint about the missions saying it was arcadish. So nothing new here. In fact FSX has same arcade features as MS Flight has but people seem to forget it.
On the success of MS Flight, It will all depend on the support we give to it and what we demand. If people start asking for realistic planes and they see we are willing to pay for them then, I don't see why it should fail at all.
I think we should at least download it and give it a try.
#3516590 - 02/11/1208:45 PMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: MedinaES]
I've stopped worrying about arcade FM in Flight since someone here said it was actually on par with FSX. My biggest worry is the lack of the whole wide world as a playground. While it's true that there are always addons in the future, I can only imagine how much money is needed to put in the rest of the world in Flight. Oh, I wont blindly close the door for it. I'll certainly download and try it. But I have a feeling I'll get back to FS9 and iFly 737 in a hurry.
"It ebbs and flows, shipmate. A hot woman and a cold beer will put all this in proper perspective."
#3516600 - 02/11/1209:09 PMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: malibu43]
Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,814Plainsman
Senior Member
... The market they are aiming at doesn't exist, ...
Can you guys site the data/research to back this up?
Point to a CIVILIAN flight game that has succeeded with the console/gamepad/casual crowd MS thinks exists? The casual crowd is a short attention span crowd. With nothing to bomb or shoot or kill, their attention won't last long.
And MS will not respond to the expressed desires of simmers and produce more realistic flight models, etc. That's a fantasy. If they cared about simmers they would've done the next iteration of Flight Simulator instead of Flight. They don't give a flying f!@#$ about simmers. Sometimes the truth hurts, people.
Acer: XB 280HK 28" 3840 X 2160, 1ms, w/Nvidia GSync Corsair: White Graphite 760T Full Tower Corsair: 16GB Vengeance LPX 2800MHz RAM Corsair: SP2500 2.1 Gaming Speaker System INTEL: Six-Core, i7 5820K CPU @4.2Hz ASUS RTX OC 2080 Logitech 920 Wheel and Pedal System with Wheel Stand Pro Saitek Pro Flight Control System with Wheel Stand Pro Saitek X55 HOTAS XBOX One S Track IR5
#3516620 - 02/11/1209:59 PMRe: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
[Re: MedinaES]