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#3515794 - 02/10/12 12:49 PM Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise"
jt_medina Offline
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Full interview here.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/te...ht_boss_on.html

Staff EDIT: Article repost removed.

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#3515816 - 02/10/12 01:12 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Tigerwulf Offline
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Quote:

Q: It seems like the tradeoff you made - building richer, smaller locales to explore in the game - is the loss of the full, open world that could be explored in "Flight Simulator"?

A: The bet we've made is that to the non-hardcore simmer, flying the whole world isn't as interesting when there's nothing really interesting to see or do. I do get that for some segment of the audience that was one of the values - I can fly anywhere, into any airport, 25,000-odd airports was crazy.

But I think as you try to broaden and you want to bring in not the next million or two but the next 20 million or 30 million people, you say I will err on the side of more interesting area that's dense than the same amount of content spread all over the globe. There's a lot to do in Hawaii, and Hawaii is gorgeous.


I'm so sick of this, hey lets appeal to everyone. Yeah they'll make more money but they're creating an ethos of a shallow, pick up and play mentallity to flight simming. Why couldn't they have progressed with FSX taking it one stage further? they could add all the crap that they are doing with this to an actual flight sim so that when people get a taste for it they can progress within the sim. It seems as though Flight will just be a dead end for casual gamers that pick it up because where will they go when they need depth and true simulation?

And no, fly anywhere into any airport isn't crazy it's aviation and it's what people that bought Flight Simulator wanted. I'm sure Hawaii is gorgeous, but there isn't 'alot to do' in aviation terms. There is in a car, or a micro light or v small GA aircraft. There's a little sight seeing.

Everything is getting so watered down.

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#3515830 - 02/10/12 01:22 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
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#3515881 - 02/10/12 02:24 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Snapdad2112 Offline
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Glad the franchise hasn't gone the way of the Dodo, like it appeared it might have a couple years ago.

Looking forward to this!

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#3515895 - 02/10/12 02:49 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Tigerwulf]
Weaponz248 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tigerwulf
Quote:

Q: It seems like the tradeoff you made - building richer, smaller locales to explore in the game - is the loss of the full, open world that could be explored in "Flight Simulator"?

A: The bet we've made is that to the non-hardcore simmer, flying the whole world isn't as interesting when there's nothing really interesting to see or do. I do get that for some segment of the audience that was one of the values - I can fly anywhere, into any airport, 25,000-odd airports was crazy.

But I think as you try to broaden and you want to bring in not the next million or two but the next 20 million or 30 million people, you say I will err on the side of more interesting area that's dense than the same amount of content spread all over the globe. There's a lot to do in Hawaii, and Hawaii is gorgeous.


I'm so sick of this, hey lets appeal to everyone. Yeah they'll make more money but they're creating an ethos of a shallow, pick up and play mentallity to flight simming. Why couldn't they have progressed with FSX taking it one stage further? they could add all the crap that they are doing with this to an actual flight sim so that when people get a taste for it they can progress within the sim. It seems as though Flight will just be a dead end for casual gamers that pick it up because where will they go when they need depth and true simulation?

And no, fly anywhere into any airport isn't crazy it's aviation and it's what people that bought Flight Simulator wanted. I'm sure Hawaii is gorgeous, but there isn't 'alot to do' in aviation terms. There is in a car, or a micro light or v small GA aircraft. There's a little sight seeing.

Everything is getting so watered down.


+1

I agree with you bud. I play a flight sim for the sim aspect and to fly into different airports and to fly different airplanes. I do some sight seeing but I like the ability to load up a airport anywhere and just fly.

I will be honest I was going to stick with FSX but I did some research and decided to go with X plane 10. It helped that the wife let me!

Microsoft will probably lose some hardcore simmers but in the end the massive gain of casual gamers will end up helping Microsoft make more money.
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#3515901 - 02/10/12 02:54 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Para_Bellum Offline
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It's kinda sad when you realize you're not in the targeted audience group for what used to be THE PC flightsim anymore.
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#3515902 - 02/10/12 02:54 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Weaponz248]
PanzerMeyer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Weaponz248
Microsoft will probably lose some hardcore simmers but in the end the massive gain of casual gamers will end up helping Microsoft make more money.


This is exactly the scenario that will happen and ultimately is really the only thing that MS cares about. I can't say I really blame them though. MS is a multi-billion dollar company so why would they waste their time and resources in making a product that only a relatively small number of consumers will buy when instead they can make something that will potentially attract a much larger group of consumers?


Edited by PanzerMeyer (02/10/12 02:59 PM)
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#3515924 - 02/10/12 03:16 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
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It's just too bad the program can't do both.



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#3515928 - 02/10/12 03:19 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Weaponz248]
Johan217 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Weaponz248

Microsoft will probably lose some hardcore simmers but in the end the massive gain of casual gamers will end up helping Microsoft make more money.
I very much doubt that the average gamer will find the idea of flying through hoops appealing. Now if MS had come up with "Red Bull Air Racing 2012" or "Air Rescue Squad", then I could see their point, and it would probably even have appealed to part of the flightsimmer crowd.


Edited by Johan217 (02/10/12 03:19 PM)
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#3515936 - 02/10/12 03:28 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Cold_Gambler Offline
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To be honest, I don't think that there really is a huge market of "casual flight simmers" out there.

There are actually a lot of other flight sims that are less complex than MS FS and X-Plane, many of them are free, some of them can be played on the iPad and NONE of them has garnered a huge slice of the "gaming market".

Let's face it, flying appeals to us but not to a large percentage of the population.

Those who DO like flight simming primarily enjoy it for its realism and immersion and a big part of that immersion is that its NOT a simplification of reality, its an effort to recreate reality with all its complexity.

In short, I feel MS has got the wrong end of the stick and has let go of a bird in the hand in the hopes of catching two illusory birds in the bush.
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#3515938 - 02/10/12 03:29 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
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I will probably download it just to see what it's all about.

Will I buy anything for it? No.
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#3515945 - 02/10/12 03:35 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
jt_medina Offline
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Flight will be a copy of FSX but with smaller maps. Cockpits, flight model will be even improved with respect to FSX stock planes.

I think that's the only way to make some money. With FSX they just made money from selling its sim but no money at all through addons. I see what they are doing a logical step.

I only hope their addons keep a decent quality which is the one of the things that really concerns me.
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#3515957 - 02/10/12 03:48 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Johan217]
ricnunes Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johan217
I very much doubt that the average gamer will find the idea of flying through hoops appealing. Now if MS had come up with "Red Bull Air Racing 2012" or "Air Rescue Squad", then I could see their point, and it would probably even have appealed to part of the flightsimmer crowd.


I completly agree with you!

I could be wrong but I don't see "arcade" flight games (where I certainly include this Flight game) being that sucessfull even if compared with "hi-fidelity" or "realistic" fligth simulators (like FSX for example). What I'm saying is that I don't see or rarelly see kiddies or casual gamers or usual gammers playing flight games even if they are arcadish but regarding to realistic flight sims I do see people playing them (even if they are rather "few" in numbers). Note that "arcade" flight games are nowhere near as sucessfully as "arcade" FPS games such as Call of Duty and I think many devs such as Microsoft simply don't understand this!
And also, Microsoft flight SIMULATOR sims seem to be a little diferent from other sims where Microsoft earned with this several MILLIONS of dollars a feat that VERY FEW game series/franchises including arcade FPS games can or will be able to match or claim!
So that I'm saying is that IMO, Microsoft will shoot themselfs on the foot on this one since the vast majority of Microsoft flight SIMULATOR copies sold were to people who really are aircraft enthusiasts and some of them real pilots and I doubt that most of these public will have an interest in this latest Microsoft Flight game.
The only advantage that I see in the Microsoft Flight game compared to Microsoft flight SIMULATOR is that the former one will probably be less costly to develop than the later one but I doubt that the sales of Microsoft Flight game will be even near to those achived with Microsoft flight SIMULATOR.

Many here, wish sucess to Microsoft but I don't!! -> I hope Microsoft shoots itself in the foot regarding this one and that's because I see it as one of the few ways for our hobby (flight simulations) to "survive".

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#3515982 - 02/10/12 04:23 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
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But do casual gamers really want to fly the Seabee or the Stearman through hoops over Hawaii ? No, they want to do crazy things in a 747, F-18 or Extra 300. Wait, couldn't you do just that in FSX ?

They're trying to make some sort of civilian Ace Combat or HAWKs, but these titles were more (or less, depending on the point of view) than just dumbed-down versions of Lock-On on a pocker-size map.

I sense and epic fail coming...

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#3515986 - 02/10/12 04:27 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: ricnunes]
jt_medina Offline
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Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Originally Posted By: Johan217
I very much doubt that the average gamer will find the idea of flying through hoops appealing. Now if MS had come up with "Red Bull Air Racing 2012" or "Air Rescue Squad", then I could see their point, and it would probably even have appealed to part of the flightsimmer crowd.


I completly agree with you!

I could be wrong but I don't see "arcade" flight games (where I certainly include this Flight game) being that sucessfull even if compared with "hi-fidelity" or "realistic" fligth simulators (like FSX for example). What I'm saying is that I don't see or rarelly see kiddies or casual gamers or usual gammers playing flight games even if they are arcadish but regarding to realistic flight sims I do see people playing them (even if they are rather "few" in numbers). Note that "arcade" flight games are nowhere near as sucessfully as "arcade" FPS games such as Call of Duty and I think many devs such as Microsoft simply don't understand this!
And also, Microsoft flight SIMULATOR sims seem to be a little diferent from other sims where Microsoft earned with this several MILLIONS of dollars a feat that VERY FEW game series/franchises including arcade FPS games can or will be able to match or claim!
So that I'm saying is that IMO, Microsoft will shoot themselfs on the foot on this one since the vast majority of Microsoft flight SIMULATOR copies sold were to people who really are aircraft enthusiasts and some of them real pilots and I doubt that most of these public will have an interest in this latest Microsoft Flight game.
The only advantage that I see in the Microsoft Flight game compared to Microsoft flight SIMULATOR is that the former one will probably be less costly to develop than the later one but I doubt that the sales of Microsoft Flight game will be even near to those achived with Microsoft flight SIMULATOR.

Many here, wish sucess to Microsoft but I don't!! -> I hope Microsoft shoots itself in the foot regarding this one and that's because I see it as one of the few ways for our hobby (flight simulations) to "survive".


MS Flight is as simulator as FSX is. MS Flight includes full realistic start up procedures which makes it a SIMULATOR.
They have made it more appealing for the masses by adding missions and other things but when flown in full realism settings, the Flight model and start up procedures as far as I could see on the beta are at the same level and even better than on FSX.
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#3516001 - 02/10/12 05:00 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Johan217 Offline
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Originally Posted By: jt_medina

MS Flight is as simulator as FSX is. MS Flight includes full realistic start up procedures which makes it a SIMULATOR.
They have made it more appealing for the masses by adding missions and other things but when flown in full realism settings, the Flight model and start up procedures as far as I could see on the beta are at the same level and even better than on FSX.
I'm happy to hear that, but for me that is not enough. I want to see AI traffic (even if only in fictional liveries) and follow ATC instructions. This is why I chose Flight Unlimited over MSFS for a long time. Flight may have functional circuit breakers for all I care, but without AI traffic (among other things) it will feel like being set back 15 years.

I would love to believe that MS will be producing ORBX-quality scenery, Accusim-quality aircraft, and other features such as AI traffic, flight instruction, flight planners of the quality that we have in FSX free- and payware. But honestly I doubt this is going to happen.


Edited by Johan217 (02/10/12 05:06 PM)
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#3516026 - 02/10/12 05:32 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Weaponz248]
SkateZilla Offline
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Originally Posted By: Weaponz248
Originally Posted By: Tigerwulf
Quote:

Q: It seems like the tradeoff you made - building richer, smaller locales to explore in the game - is the loss of the full, open world that could be explored in "Flight Simulator"?

A: The bet we've made is that to the non-hardcore simmer, flying the whole world isn't as interesting when there's nothing really interesting to see or do. I do get that for some segment of the audience that was one of the values - I can fly anywhere, into any airport, 25,000-odd airports was crazy.

But I think as you try to broaden and you want to bring in not the next million or two but the next 20 million or 30 million people, you say I will err on the side of more interesting area that's dense than the same amount of content spread all over the globe. There's a lot to do in Hawaii, and Hawaii is gorgeous.


I'm so sick of this, hey lets appeal to everyone. Yeah they'll make more money but they're creating an ethos of a shallow, pick up and play mentallity to flight simming. Why couldn't they have progressed with FSX taking it one stage further? they could add all the crap that they are doing with this to an actual flight sim so that when people get a taste for it they can progress within the sim. It seems as though Flight will just be a dead end for casual gamers that pick it up because where will they go when they need depth and true simulation?

And no, fly anywhere into any airport isn't crazy it's aviation and it's what people that bought Flight Simulator wanted. I'm sure Hawaii is gorgeous, but there isn't 'alot to do' in aviation terms. There is in a car, or a micro light or v small GA aircraft. There's a little sight seeing.

Everything is getting so watered down.


+1

I agree with you bud. I play a flight sim for the sim aspect and to fly into different airports and to fly different airplanes. I do some sight seeing but I like the ability to load up a airport anywhere and just fly.

I will be honest I was going to stick with FSX but I did some research and decided to go with X plane 10. It helped that the wife let me!

Microsoft will probably lose some hardcore simmers but in the end the massive gain of casual gamers will end up helping Microsoft make more money.



Prepar3d...
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#3516085 - 02/10/12 06:49 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Cold_Gambler]
Flogger23m Offline
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Originally Posted By: Cold_Gambler
To be honest, I don't think that there really is a huge market of "casual flight simmers" out there.



There are not even many people interested in arcade style flying games. While the Ace Combat series on the PS2 sold well, with two of the titles earning the "Greatest Hits" label they are still rather unknown and low profile. The latest entry, Assault Horizon, have to shift its focus towards being a CoD style clone with jets because the team was told they were not selling enough copies of the previous Ace Combat style. It would also explain why the few arcade flight games released were done by smaller companies. And the number of these games (Lethal Skies, Aero Elite) have been deceasing steadily over the years.

If casual gamers do not have enough interest in Ace Combat style games, I don't see how something more realistic will sell extremely well. They probably would have a more solid market if they stuck with FSX style realism/gameplay.

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#3516102 - 02/10/12 07:20 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Flogger23m]
FearlessFrog Offline
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Registered: 01/08/09
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Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
Originally Posted By: Cold_Gambler
To be honest, I don't think that there really is a huge market of "casual flight simmers" out there.



There are not even many people interested in arcade style flying games. While the Ace Combat series on the PS2 sold well, with two of the titles earning the "Greatest Hits" label they are still rather unknown and low profile. The latest entry, Assault Horizon, have to shift its focus towards being a CoD style clone with jets because the team was told they were not selling enough copies of the previous Ace Combat style. It would also explain why the few arcade flight games released were done by smaller companies. And the number of these games (Lethal Skies, Aero Elite) have been deceasing steadily over the years.

If casual gamers do not have enough interest in Ace Combat style games, I don't see how something more realistic will sell extremely well. They probably would have a more solid market if they stuck with FSX style realism/gameplay.


While I agree that the 'casual flight sim' market is a bit of a risk for mainstream adoption, your cited AC series numbers look a bit off. The AC6:AH alone has sold about 500,000 units world-wide, with the AC6 before that (just Xbox exclusive) being around 900,000 - and AH still has some more legs in it - plus this is console titles at $60 a pop.

To put it in to perspective, Namco/PA have made more money in 'flight sims' (chuckle) than Maddox Games, Eagle Dynamics and any other of the sims we love to play by a factor of about 10 (guessing, unless the DCS series made more than $20 million and they just keep quiet about it lol). Ironically, Microsoft FSX was the last 'mainstream' money-maker for a large publisher (if you ignore Ubisoft's hands-off approach of SH and CloD)

Microsoft will make a profit on Flight, and might have a new franchise to attract console players (perhaps not the 360, but the one after it) - and the idea of 'putt putt'ing around Maui on the 50' TV with friends' could appeal in large numbers.

Personally it's not what I like, i.e. I'd prefer chess over checkers, but I don't see the harm in a world where lots of different types of players exist. Maybe some of them will go on to wanting a more 'hardcore' experience - and all boats float up etc. Given that FSX was dead, and that Prepare3d exists, there's no harm in Microsoft Flight for our hobby.

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#3516130 - 02/10/12 07:48 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: FearlessFrog]
Trident Offline
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Originally Posted By: FearlessFrog
Given that FSX was dead, and that Prepare3d exists, there's no harm in Microsoft Flight for our hobby.


Agree. While a larger choice of realistic civilian sims would certainly never go amiss, Flight being what it is will at least not be a particularly great loss.

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#3516135 - 02/10/12 07:54 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: FearlessFrog]
Flogger23m Offline
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Registered: 12/06/02
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Originally Posted By: FearlessFrog
Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
Originally Posted By: Cold_Gambler
To be honest, I don't think that there really is a huge market of "casual flight simmers" out there.



There are not even many people interested in arcade style flying games. While the Ace Combat series on the PS2 sold well, with two of the titles earning the "Greatest Hits" label they are still rather unknown and low profile. The latest entry, Assault Horizon, have to shift its focus towards being a CoD style clone with jets because the team was told they were not selling enough copies of the previous Ace Combat style. It would also explain why the few arcade flight games released were done by smaller companies. And the number of these games (Lethal Skies, Aero Elite) have been deceasing steadily over the years.

If casual gamers do not have enough interest in Ace Combat style games, I don't see how something more realistic will sell extremely well. They probably would have a more solid market if they stuck with FSX style realism/gameplay.


While I agree that the 'casual flight sim' market is a bit of a risk for mainstream adoption, your cited AC series numbers look a bit off. The AC6:AH alone has sold about 500,000 units world-wide, with the AC6 before that (just Xbox exclusive) being around 900,000 - and AH still has some more legs in it - plus this is console titles at $60 a pop.

To put it in to perspective, Namco/PA have made more money in 'flight sims' (chuckle) than Maddox Games, Eagle Dynamics and any other of the sims we love to play by a factor of about 10 (guessing, unless the DCS series made more than $20 million and they just keep quiet about it lol). Ironically, Microsoft FSX was the last 'mainstream' money-maker for a large publisher (if you ignore Ubisoft's hands-off approach of SH and CloD)

Microsoft will make a profit on Flight, and might have a new franchise to attract console players (perhaps not the 360, but the one after it) - and the idea of 'putt putt'ing around Maui on the 50' TV with friends' could appeal in large numbers.

Personally it's not what I like, i.e. I'd prefer chess over checkers, but I don't see the harm in a world where lots of different types of players exist. Maybe some of them will go on to wanting a more 'hardcore' experience - and all boats float up etc. Given that FSX was dead, and that Prepare3d exists, there's no harm in Microsoft Flight for our hobby.


I'm just saying that despite the series being popular, and for it is (aside from AH) a perfect game, the sales are still very low compared to other genres. For example, Dead Space 2 sold two million copies and that is hardly a year old. And the Ace Combat series has not had any competition for some years. HAWX 1/2 were very poor. Wings of Prey and Apache Air Assault might count, though I believe those fall more into the Strike Fighters category as a "light sim".

I seem to recall the AC AH devs claiming that Namco was considering to stop funding the series, which is largely the reason for the gameplay change, which did not work out so well.

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#3516166 - 02/10/12 09:06 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
LawnDartLeo Offline
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Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 158
How many people have purchased ONE addon for FS... in the history of the game. I am wiling to bet that 100,000 would be a GROSS overstatement. But even if it were, No software publisher is interested in Developing a significantly complex simulator for 100,000 potential customers.

Now, how many have purchased 2... 3... 4 or more addons. Those numbers are falling precipitously.

Face it, gentlemen (and ladies if there are any of you out there).... we are a lousy customer base.

FS became what is it because twenty some odd years ago, before ABSOLUTE corporate interest took over, a bunch of geeks with mad coding skillz and a passion for aviation created FS and all its progeny. They made an engine that was fairly open and mod friendly that allowed the cottage industry of addons to sprout of and flourish (I did not say prosper). FSX is the culmination of years, if not decades of development. To think that somebody could make something as good today from scratch is folly.


As far as Flight is concerned, I look at it as the logical (albeit distasteful to many of us) progression of the genre in a world where its all about the bottom line.


Edited by LawnDartLeo (02/13/12 12:16 AM)
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#3516193 - 02/10/12 10:01 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Blade_RJ Offline
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we are not a lousy consumer base, they are the one wasting money on huge adds for a game and then wanting those ads to be paid, i said many times, if they lower the budget for marketing,games wouldnt need to get so much sales and could even be cheaper. back in the day you saw a magazine add, some banner on the retail, and at most a tv add, now we have trailers and more trailers,adds everywhere in every gaming site, etc.

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#3516201 - 02/10/12 10:15 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Duchess Offline
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Im thinking maybe we'll have to have an active input in flight Sims of the future? Perhaps paying a company to do the coding, but have us the simmers do some of the research legwork.
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#3516207 - 02/10/12 10:22 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Blade_RJ Offline
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are you kidding stalin ? dont you remember il-2 ? how vocal one group was that flight model should be this, while the other disagree and so forth..the game wouldnt ever get made,lol.

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#3516268 - 02/11/12 01:41 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
magicalflyer Offline
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It's real simple. Take the guns away, casual gamers run away. Sightseeing appeal? Try take the killing away from GTA and TES and see if it works.
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#3516283 - 02/11/12 02:21 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
BeachAV8R Offline
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Welcome to the new way to play your flight games...



I want to see him eject..
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#3516296 - 02/11/12 03:20 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
WileECoyote Offline
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Oh man, I know we look lame with TrackIR attached to our heads, but this?!

On the topic. As others said, the market that they are targeting doesn't exist, and won't exist. Period.
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#3516303 - 02/11/12 04:01 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Rodney Offline
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It's not aimed at a bunch of gripey old guys that have been hanging around the same forum for a decade and have been playing sims since the 80's.

Remember the microsoft sticks planes in the 80's? What are we playing now?. What will the new generation that will pick up microsft flight be playing in a decades time?, Photo real sims in their 360 degree gaming visors?.

The more flight sims on the market the better, keeps the genre buoyant .

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#3516344 - 02/11/12 06:26 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: WileECoyote]
magicalflyer Offline
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Originally Posted By: WileECoyote
As others said, the market that they are targeting doesn't exist, and won't exist. Period.
Absolutely agree. But MS seems to have the best marketing team in the world. Maybe they see something we don't. I don't like whatever they're seeing, though..
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#3516416 - 02/11/12 09:36 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Rodney]
jt_medina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rodney


The more flight sims on the market the better, keeps the genre buoyant .


+1
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#3516422 - 02/11/12 09:50 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Plainsman Offline
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WileECoyote is correct. The market doesn't exist for Flight, although the game will sell initially brcause of simplayers who are desperate for something completely new, and their curiousity will get the better of them. Then they'll realize how lame Flight is, how totally inadequate it is to real flight simulation - You can only fly around Hawaii, and there are no A.I. aircraft! Some will hang on to Flight because they are embarrased to have purchased it, and will rationalize their purchase by saying "well, MS plans to reproduce the rest of the world (not true) and A.I. aircraft (also, not true).

I love both FS9 and FSX. I usually fly low and slow GA aircraft for visual treats, and thats what I get with FSX, GEX, REX2, and the graphics and autogen sliders pushed all the way to the max. And I want to fly over any major city in the world. I fly over the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Africa, Antartica, and a hundred different locales in the USA. I WANT THE WHOLE DOGGONE WORLD! And sometimes I do want to get into a 737 and fly from Montreal to MExico City, or from Reykavik, Iceland to Rome, Italy. And I want the option to do that OUT OF THE BOX. I want the option to fly lots of different aircraft, including helicopters, OUT OF THE BOX.

i don't want a game; I want a simulation. Flight sucks.


Edited by Plainsman (02/11/12 09:57 AM)
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#3516469 - 02/11/12 11:25 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
HogDriver Offline
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Plainsman, MS Flight is free to play. The only thing you buy is the addons.

I agree with what has been said before. The market they are aiming at doesn't exist, and casual gamers will get bored after 5 minutes with nothing to shoot at.

Even if a casual gamer found some interest in flight sims after this, where would he go next? 6 year old FSX, if you can still find it instore? X-Plane 10, which would probably put them off flight sims? (not very noob friendly is what I mean) Strike Fighters 2, which is only available online and they probably won't be aware of it? I can't see them going for DCS A-10C because of the complexity.

I'm sorry, but I can't see Flight being in any way GOOD for the flight sim business. If Flight fails spectacularly, it's probably going to make other publishers even more scared to make a flight sim.
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#3516533 - 02/11/12 01:48 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: HogDriver]
malibu43 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Plainsman
...The market doesn't exist for Flight,


Originally Posted By: HogDriver
... The market they are aiming at doesn't exist, ...


Can you guys site the data/research to back this up?
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#3516543 - 02/11/12 02:05 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
magicalflyer Offline
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Quote:
Can you guys site the data/research to back this up?

As for me I only use logic and observing people I know (my friends and the local gaming community in which I'm a member). Flight seems to be too boring to the casual gamers and will still be too complicated. These are the people who say that landing airplanes in Strike Fighters difficult, anyway. As for hardcore simmers, many here have stated the reasons why.
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#3516561 - 02/11/12 02:38 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: magicalflyer]
jt_medina Offline
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The problem is, some people assume hardcore simmers won't buy addons for Flight. If these addons are realistic enough, I have no problem at all. In fact I find that way much easier, with everything in just one marketplace.

Besides, Strike Fighters is not a hardcore simulator and there it is people buy it and having fun.

MS Flight developers have already said there is no limitation on what they can do. It's just a matter of support. If people say I want them to fail, no matter what, then of course MS Flight will fail.

This is the same story since any version of FS, when FSX was about to be released people complaint about the missions saying it was arcadish. So nothing new here. In fact FSX has same arcade features as MS Flight has but people seem to forget it.

On the success of MS Flight, It will all depend on the support we give to it and what we demand. If people start asking for realistic planes and they see we are willing to pay for them then, I don't see why it should fail at all.

I think we should at least download it and give it a try.
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#3516590 - 02/11/12 03:45 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
magicalflyer Offline
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I've stopped worrying about arcade FM in Flight since someone here said it was actually on par with FSX. My biggest worry is the lack of the whole wide world as a playground. While it's true that there are always addons in the future, I can only imagine how much money is needed to put in the rest of the world in Flight. Oh, I wont blindly close the door for it. I'll certainly download and try it. But I have a feeling I'll get back to FS9 and iFly 737 in a hurry.
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#3516600 - 02/11/12 04:09 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: malibu43]
Plainsman Offline
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Originally Posted By: malibu43
Originally Posted By: Plainsman
...The market doesn't exist for Flight,


Originally Posted By: HogDriver
... The market they are aiming at doesn't exist, ...


Can you guys site the data/research to back this up?


Point to a CIVILIAN flight game that has succeeded with the console/gamepad/casual crowd MS thinks exists? The casual crowd is a short attention span crowd. With nothing to bomb or shoot or kill, their attention won't last long.

And MS will not respond to the expressed desires of simmers and produce more realistic flight models, etc. That's a fantasy. If they cared about simmers they would've done the next iteration of Flight Simulator instead of Flight. They don't give a flying f!@#$ about simmers. Sometimes the truth hurts, people.
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#3516620 - 02/11/12 04:59 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Evil Flower Offline
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Pilotwings has been around since at least the late 80's.

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#3516752 - 02/11/12 08:36 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Evil Flower]
jt_medina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Evil Flower
Pilotwings has been around since at least the late 80's.


And Flight Simulator too. smile
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#3517031 - 02/12/12 12:32 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
f15sim Offline
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"realistic start up procedures" makes a simulator about as much as sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.

If you really want to be the target demographic for this stinking pile of digital fail, I strongly suggest you dig out your frontal lobe with a melon baller. (That part is especially helpful if you want to get an MBA too!)

Some derp-tastic manager type got his claws into the ACES studio and destroyed it. Period. The result is "Flight", a game that caters to the "smack the big red button and get a food pellet" crowd and not the "can make squiggles on an EEG" crowd.

If you want a really good payware flight simulator, I'd recommend you take a peek at Ilan Papini's Vehicle Simulator - you can download a demo at http://www.hangsim.com. It covers sea, land and air. The water dynamics is just astonishing.
It's a bargain at $30, especially considering what it does.

If you want free, check out FlightGear (http://www.flightgear.org). Version 2.6.0 is going to be released very soon.

g.
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#3517078 - 02/12/12 01:33 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: f15sim]
jt_medina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gene Buckle
"realistic start up procedures" makes a simulator about as much as sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.


Then DCS A-10 and DCS Blackshark are not simulators I must assume?.

Originally Posted By: Gene Buckle

If you really want to be the target demographic for this stinking pile of digital fail, I strongly suggest you dig out your frontal lobe with a melon baller. (That part is especially helpful if you want to get an MBA too!)


I guess you are beta tester and have already tried it?.
Which aspects of MS Flight do you think are a failure?. Flight procedures, Weather, no AI, no ATC, Flight model, small maps?.


Originally Posted By: Gene Buckle

If you want a really good payware flight simulator, I'd recommend you take a peek at Ilan Papini's Vehicle Simulator - you can download a demo at http://www.hangsim.com. It covers sea, land and air. The water dynamics is just astonishing.
It's a bargain at $30, especially considering what it does.

If you want free, check out FlightGear (http://www.flightgear.org). Version 2.6.0 is going to be released very soon.

g.


I tried them both, and it's nothing to do compared to MS Flight.
Flight Gear is way inferior to MS Flight and Papini's product is nice and cheap but nothing compared to MS Flight.
Again, MS Flight is completely based on FSX with an improved multicore graphic engine and physics. So stop whining about what you don't know.

Before you start biasing about MS Flight, you should first install it, try it for a while and then use your frontal lobe to try to analyze it objectively and not with anger and bias.

Have a nice day. smile





Edited by jt_medina (02/12/12 01:34 PM)
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#3517188 - 02/12/12 04:17 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Plainsman Offline
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None of the MS Flight fanboys can point to a single CIVILIAN flight game that was a hit with the casual crowd. Where is the evidence such a market exists?
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#3517197 - 02/12/12 04:30 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
f15sim Offline
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I suspect there isn't one. They're so steeped in their little Jobsian Reality Distortion Field that they can't see the forest for the trees. smile

FlightGear wipes the floor with MS Flight. Maybe not from an eye-candy standpoint, but certainly everywhere else. You're of course welcome to call NASA and let them know how bad FG is though. I'm sure they'll be horrified to find out they're using such an inferior product in some of their research programs. Might want to contact the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, they'll be sure to want to dump all their research tools in favor of MS Flight.

The DCS products are indeed true flight (and systems) simulators. They _require_ the "can make squiggles on an EEG" type.

At best MS Flight is a *game* that simulates being a flight simulator (and screws that up badly. "Hey let's go zoom through some light loops so we can get teh achieeeeevments!")

g.
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#3517226 - 02/12/12 05:21 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Plainsman]
jt_medina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Plainsman
None of the MS Flight fanboys can point to a single CIVILIAN flight game that was a hit with the casual crowd. Where is the evidence such a market exists?


Oh that's new. Now we are fanboys.
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#3517241 - 02/12/12 05:34 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Johan217 Offline
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Looking in my crystal ball my view is that MS Flight will be too limited to attract simmers, but, more importantly, that it will be too "boring" to attract gamers in any significant numbers. Why fly through hoops when you can buzz skyscrapers and blow stuff up in an airplane or helicopter in GTA5?

The flightsimmer audience they may still be able to recuperate somewhat if they deliver a good amount of high quality DLC (not just aircraft and scenery!), but the gamers they will never catch.
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#3517242 - 02/12/12 05:36 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: f15sim]
jt_medina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gene Buckle
I suspect there isn't one. They're so steeped in their little Jobsian Reality Distortion Field that they can't see the forest for the trees. smile
g.


There is one, but you are not in it.
Oh!! and I never liked Steve Jobs.


Originally Posted By: Gene Buckle
At best MS Flight is a *game* that simulates being a flight simulator (and screws that up badly. "Hey let's go zoom through some light loops so we can get teh achieeeeevments!")

g.


SO, have you already tried it?. What do you think about flight model while landing with crosswind. Can you tell me why flight procedures look arcadish to you?.
You have NO CLUE.

Originally Posted By: Gene Buckle
FlightGear wipes the floor with MS Flight. Maybe not from an eye-candy standpoint, but certainly everywhere else. You're of course welcome to call NASA and let them know how bad FG is though. I'm sure they'll be horrified to find out they're using such an inferior product in some of their research programs. Might want to contact the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, they'll be sure to want to dump all their research tools in favor of MS Flight.
g.


And Who do you think is developing MS Flight, 3rd grade kids?.
They are highly qualified programmers who have a passion and also have to pay bills and a mortgage. Feel glad they are still willing to make a flight simulator and not a call of duty.
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#3517257 - 02/12/12 05:50 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Johan217 Offline
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Originally Posted By: jt_medina
Besides, Strike Fighters is not a hardcore simulator and there it is people buy it and having fun.

I'll bet that a large majority of SF players are flightsimmers, not gamers, who appreciate the game in spite of rather than because of its simplicity. Where else can you fly a Phantom or Mirage in the Vietnam or 6 Days War? And SF has another major thing going for it: its large modding community. It seems that if MS has its way, we won't be seeing this for Flight.

Looking in my crystal ball my view is that MS Flight will be too limited to attract simmers, but, more importantly, that it will be too "boring" to attract gamers in any significant numbers. Why fly through hoops when you can buzz skyscrapers and blow stuff up in an airplane or helicopter in GTA5?

For example: the missions in FSX. I liked the idea, and some of them were interesting. The concept of having goals, a storyline, dialogue and scripted events opened up possibilities in the civ flightsim genre. But compared to what you see in the average FPS or action game, they were often clumsy and bland.

The flightsimmer audience they may still be able to recuperate somewhat if they deliver a good amount of high quality DLC (not just aircraft and scenery!), but the gamers they will never catch.
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#3517273 - 02/12/12 06:08 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Johan217]
jt_medina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johan217
Originally Posted By: jt_medina
Besides, Strike Fighters is not a hardcore simulator and there it is people buy it and having fun.

I'll bet that a large majority of SF players are flightsimmers, not gamers, who appreciate the game in spite of rather than because of its simplicity. Where else can you fly a Phantom or Mirage in the Vietnam or 6 Days War? And SF has another major thing going for it: its large modding community. It seems that if MS has its way, we won't be seeing this for Flight.

Looking in my crystal ball my view is that MS Flight will be too limited to attract simmers, but, more importantly, that it will be too "boring" to attract gamers in any significant numbers. Why fly through hoops when you can buzz skyscrapers and blow stuff up in an airplane or helicopter in GTA5?

For example: the missions in FSX. I liked the idea, and some of them were interesting. The concept of having goals, a storyline, dialogue and scripted events opened up possibilities in the civ flightsim genre. But compared to what you see in the average FPS or action game, they were often clumsy and bland.

The flightsimmer audience they may still be able to recuperate somewhat if they deliver a good amount of high quality DLC (not just aircraft and scenery!), but the gamers they will never catch.


Agree SF is a great game/sim no doubt about that. Agree too there is a large modding community behind.

But You have to understand MS Flight can be the same. The main difference is MS developers will be making money from the addons they'd sell.
I believe the success of MS Flight will be determined by the support they receive from the simmers community and the quality of their addons. I partially agree with you in that some gamers will get bored of MS Flight very soon, but I think MS Flight can be a new alternative for those who want to try something new and different and more focused on multiplayer.
I see MS Flight like a general aviation sim, something similar to what we can see on Aerofly FS. Selling planes and maps separately.



Edited by jt_medina (02/12/12 06:09 PM)
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#3517281 - 02/12/12 06:20 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
FlyingMonkey Offline
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Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 261
It's ridiculous to think that they're going to jump from 1 or 2 millions to 20 or 30 millions with Flight! Especially if the assumption the world coverage is not something casual players want, this the number ONE thing all my friends who casually tried FSX asked: they all ask "Can I fly at *insert your local airfield here*?", and usually they ask for a whole bunch of airfields until they even start to care about which plane is used (unless they're aviation fans, but I'm talking 100% casual non aviation interest people here). I remember back in the days where I could show off Fly or MS Flight Sim, people would always want to see Flight Sim just because you could pick any location you wanted. I think Microsoft totally underestimate the sort of casual "Atlas of the world" aspect of Flight Sim.

Anyway, I certainly think they scrapped too many key things from Flight Sim (in my case, I like my airliners, go fly a PMDG 747 from one end of Hawaii to the other end, yay...). I won't even download it (heck, I don't need to try I already know they killed my favourite features) because I hope stats will show them that their new formula will bring them less money than the old one.

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#3517282 - 02/12/12 06:26 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Scoobe Offline
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I think MS Flight will have an audience. I think it will be sucessful. If MS markets it right, there is an audience of people out there who want to fly and not deal with the more mondane things of Flying.

I have the Beta, and I think the flight modeling is quite good in Flight. Graphics also look on par with Orbx type of scenery and frame rate is very good even at higest settings. I think most who try it will be impressed. Having said that, I got bored with it rather quickly, But then again, Im not part of the target audience. I dont know what type of missions the DLC will have. The ones that came with the beta need a little more imagination to keep people interested.

Right now, I have FSX (with tons of addons), Xplane 10 with a few addons and the flight Beta (not to mention IL2 COD & ROF), and they all offer a different experience. All good in their own way. If you love flight sims (like I do), get em all!!

Rob
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#3517514 - 02/13/12 03:47 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Tigerwulf Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 1800
Loc: Wolverhampton, UK
For those thinking Flight is such a great idea. Pilot Wings was mentioned, wasn't that a console game? The primary market for casual games is the console. This is not being released on a console, what casual gamer is going to spend the money on a rig to run Flight? I'm assuming it has very complex calculations going on in the background if the flight model is so good as you suggest. There's also the graphics we have all seen.

Yes there are casual gamers out there with monster rigs that mummy and daddy bought them, but they are playing run and gun games and screaming at each other via comms.

But as people have said it will get millions of players. I agree and the reason is because it is free. So you are going to get lots of our happy little spoilt run and gunners downloading this great little multiplayer flight game in which they realise ther ate now guns and nothing to blow up. They'll get bored and subsequently they start flying into each other for fun.

Add-on packs will not be purchased by this audience because they're bored of the game already. A few may keep it and actually enjoy the free part but wont play because they will keep getting flown into.

The flight simmers that do try won't stick around for long for the reasons stated above.

Do you know why I know this will happen? It was all seen in multiplayer on FSX. All the people who actual enjoy flight sims witnesed the above when they joined multiplayer. So back to the massive free world that gave them what they wanted. There's a reason AI packs sell so well. We want lots of aircraft but not ones being flown into us by spoilt brats.

This is the reason people say there is no market and this is the reason flight simmers won't stick around.

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#3517523 - 02/13/12 04:31 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
magicalflyer Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 481
Loc: Indonesia
Ah, screw the casual gamers. The only group who can save Flight is us, flightsimmers. It's good that FM is no problem. It realistic enough. And, of couse, graphics is more than good. I think I have to give up the world wide map, though. Even if there is addon scenery for every other airport, the cost won't justify the purchase. What important now is good, interesting missions. Like flying police chopper to help units on the ground. Or fly as an aerial tour pilot. No, it won't make Flight a worthy successor of MSFS, but it will be just another good flightsim we fly every now and then.
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#3517531 - 02/13/12 05:14 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Duncan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 7
Hi all,

could we see military DLC which would make Flight also a combat flight simulator ?
Combat flight simulators are more regional focused so lack of whole world is less important.
And for a wide audience dogfights and bombing missions are attractive.

Any info about such feature ?

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#3517547 - 02/13/12 06:41 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Skybird Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/00
Posts: 741
I think they fall for two huge miscalculations.

1st, having the choice between X-plane and FS, most flight simmers preferred FS due to the easiness by which to change and add content. The argument is the great modular structure that allows users to replace everything: local sceneries and airports, weather textures and clouds, whole continental design, 3D exterior models, flightdeck modules. Not only seems flight not to offer the technical ability to allow that, it would also violate their business model. And for quite some users, FS was more about experimenting and creating new planes and sceneries, than flying themselves. For them, it was what the small miniature railway in the cellar has been for our fathers - a work constantly going on,l never finished. The travel is the goal.

2nd, there have been occasional small little flight games focussing on for example rescue helicopters or traffic monitoring - and they all remained to stay as that: small little flight games, they were not any noticably successful, nor were taken note of by a wide public. They popped up, disappeared relatively quickly, and the speed by which they usually enter the smile price stage of their shelf lives, tells something on how popular they were - not very.

Flight's argument seems to be exclusively the eye fodder provided the landscape. But even that argument already is being rivalled by - Google. What Flight seems to offer in principle is the flight "simulator" included in Google Earth. Maybe a bit more polished and with better flight dynamics, weather engine, day-night-cycle, but in principle that's what Flight seems to be: a polished Google Earth/Flight. Just that Google Earth offers you the whole globe. How often do you use Google Earth-Flight Simulator? Where was the challenge in flying it? Right - there was none.

The challenge provided by a civilian flight simulator is to operate the cockpit. That'S what it is about. Not to start at point A and get to point B. It either is successful in providing that challenge - or it is not.

Personally, I never made use of the missions in FSX. It'S not my taste and not my way of operating FS. I am with the PMDG flight deck stuff. People like me - and we are not few, Flight1 and Aerosoft still make a good living by our buys - are at a total loss with Flight.

The whole concept of Fight to me is just a business stunt, or better, an advertising campaign for the pushed concept of cloud computing. Users are hesitent about cloud computing, and rightly so, while Microsoft wants to almost impose it on everybody. I have big issues with such concepts, like I already am critical of data online storage and security and DRM regading Steam, needs to stay online all the time, Facebook and other (anti)social networks. There may be a bright, social future laying ahead, although I somewhat doubt that, but well, I could be wrong. However, these schemes above are it CERTAINLY NOT. Their success come at a massive human price. But i stray off here, so: full stop.

It has already been said that Flight seems to copy game models for consoles and handhelds. If that is the sim model young players get used to, there is good reason to worry about the future of quality simulations on PC. Even if quality sims would get provided by some enthusiastic developer, people and customers less and lesser would even be able to appreciate it - they have been trained to embrace concepot more simplicstic. That way, the economic failure of such software projects already gets preprogrammed today.


Edited by Skybird (02/13/12 07:11 AM)

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#3517798 - 02/13/12 12:52 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
malibu43 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 1953
Loc: Belmont, CA
I still don't think Flight is such a big "miss" like a lot of people think. I still see a lot of misinformed posts (anything that calls flight a console/arcade game). Anyone who says that obviously hasn't spent much/any time with the beta.

Flight is FSX with the following differences:

*edit* - probably shouldn't/can't say what they are. Bottom line - Flight isn't all flying through rings using the mouse like the trailers show.

So, if you like flying 747's from one continent to another, Flight isn't for you. If you like GA flying in smaller, more detailed areas, then I think you will like Flight. And, based on the success of ORBX (and similar companies/sceneries that speicialize in highly detailed smaller areas), I think there's a market there. Obviously, Microsoft (who probably has a lot of people that get paid a lot to do market research) think there's a mareket there as well.

I have spent the last week or so looking for any and all Hawaii scenery addons for FSX (pay-ware and free-ware) and trying to compare the best FSX Hawaii experience possible to the Flight Hawaii experience. I am eagerly awaiting Feb 29th.*

* - Actually (and ironically), I will be in Maui on Feb 29th! So, I eagerly await March 5th.
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#3517811 - 02/13/12 01:12 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
jt_medina Offline
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Talking about Pilot Wings?. smile
Not meant to flame just as a reminder.

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#3517812 - 02/13/12 01:12 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Skybird]
malibu43 Offline
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Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 1953
Loc: Belmont, CA
Originally Posted By: Skybird
...

The challenge provided by a civilian flight simulator is to operate the cockpit. That'S what it is about.

...


That is one of the challenges provided; not the only challenge provided. I think it would be a huge mistake to assume that that's the only reason someone fires up a flight simulator on their PC. I would even question the assumption that it is the reason the majority of folks fire up a flight simulator.

As a real life pilot*, I never use flight simulators for the challenge of cockpit systems management. I enjoy things like nailing a challenging landing, exploring, completing a mission or a task (whether it's combat or civillian oriented), or just pretending that I'm flying and enjoying myself. Often I like to try stuff that would be dangerous or illegal in real life. I think I am part of Flights targat market, and I would guess there a lots of people like me out there. Keep in mind they may not be the most vocal members at SimHQ or AVSIM.

* - The only reason I threw the pilot thing in there was to demonstrate that I appreciate the challenge (and fun) of cockpit systems management and the more tedious tasks associated with flying. I'm not just some "noob" who's idea of flying is launching a thousand missiles at a time while inverted pulling -25 g's in HAWX. I don't think that me being a pilot makes my opinion on Flight worth more than the opinion of any other flight sim veteran.
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#3517815 - 02/13/12 01:14 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
jt_medina Offline
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Loc: Destination Unknown...
The thing that worries me most about MS Flight is the lack of a world wide map. That's the most disappointing thing of all.
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#3517824 - 02/13/12 01:30 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
malibu43 Offline
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Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 1953
Loc: Belmont, CA
Originally Posted By: jt_medina
The thing that worries me most about MS Flight is the lack of a world wide map. That's the most disappointing thing of all.


Yeah. That's the one thing that will keep FSX on my hard drive for a while. But, after having the ORBX PNW Demo, PW Carribean Sceneries, and BlueSkyScenery stuff installed recently, I've found that the default FSX scenery in a lot of areas just doesn't look good enough. The defaul landclass and autogen can look really weird in places that didn't get some special attention. So, I'm only flying right now in areas I have addon scenery installed for. Therefore, the lack the entire world in Flight doesn't really bother me.
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#3517861 - 02/13/12 02:45 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Tigerwulf Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 1800
Loc: Wolverhampton, UK
My reference to pilot wings was because someone used pilot wings as evidence that flight games can be aimed at casual gamers. You can read my post in context above.

Yes FSX had those tutorials, but if you read my first post (post 2 i think) i have no issue with missions etc. My issue is the fact that they feel it's ridiculous, crazy i think was said in the interview, that the whole world should be modelled with lots of airports.

My opinion is that they should have taken FSX to the next level and left scenery add ons to orbx and the like wink

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#3518652 - 02/14/12 04:01 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Tigerwulf]
oscarklein Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 75
Originally Posted By: Tigerwulf
Quote:

Q: It seems like the tradeoff you made - building richer, smaller locales to explore in the game - is the loss of the full, open world that could be explored in "Flight Simulator"?

A: The bet we've made is that to the non-hardcore simmer, flying the whole world isn't as interesting when there's nothing really interesting to see or do. I do get that for some segment of the audience that was one of the values - I can fly anywhere, into any airport, 25,000-odd airports was crazy.

But I think as you try to broaden and you want to bring in not the next million or two but the next 20 million or 30 million people, you say I will err on the side of more interesting area that's dense than the same amount of content spread all over the globe. There's a lot to do in Hawaii, and Hawaii is gorgeous.


I'm so sick of this, hey lets appeal to everyone. Yeah they'll make more money but they're creating an ethos of a shallow, pick up and play mentallity to flight simming. Why couldn't they have progressed with FSX taking it one stage further? they could add all the crap that they are doing with this to an actual flight sim so that when people get a taste for it they can progress within the sim. It seems as though Flight will just be a dead end for casual gamers that pick it up because where will they go when they need depth and true simulation?

And no, fly anywhere into any airport isn't crazy it's aviation and it's what people that bought Flight Simulator wanted. I'm sure Hawaii is gorgeous, but there isn't 'alot to do' in aviation terms. There is in a car, or a micro light or v small GA aircraft. There's a little sight seeing.

Everything is getting so watered down.


Yes , yet another real SIM reduced to an arcade game for 12 year olds , justin beaber fans , and console gamers.

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#3520511 - 02/17/12 07:15 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Duncan]
Whammo Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 453
Originally Posted By: Duncan
Hi all,

could we see military DLC which would make Flight also a combat flight simulator ?
Combat flight simulators are more regional focused so lack of whole world is less important.
And for a wide audience dogfights and bombing missions are attractive.

Any info about such feature ?






This is a good question. This is why Flight will also fail! Will I download it? Yes, because it's free. Will I pay for add-ons? I doubt it.

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#3520633 - 02/17/12 09:54 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
magicalflyer Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 481
Loc: Indonesia
Why would a "civilian flight simulator" need bombs and guns just to make it attractive to "wide audience"?
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#3520652 - 02/17/12 10:18 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Plainsman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 3445
Loc: In a Blue state, thank God
Originally Posted By: jt_medina
Originally Posted By: Plainsman
None of the MS Flight fanboys can point to a single CIVILIAN flight game that was a hit with the casual crowd. Where is the evidence such a market exists?


Oh that's new. Now we are fanboys.


Once again, no one has provided a single CIVILIAN flight game title that was a hit with the casual crowd, as evidence such a market exists. Flight will be a COLOSSAL BLUNDER by MS. Their "market" is a fantasy. That's why they hedge in their description in the hope that the flight SIM crowd will be fooled enough to buy this...this thing, when the market they really want proves to be nonexistent.

MS would make far more money providing a serious, multi-core graphics update to current FSX - with upgraded airports, more A.I., more and better flyables, AND CHARGING FOR IT - instead of building a civilian flight game for a market (casual gamers) that only likes blow em up, arcade flight games with unrealistic physics like Ace Combat, and rarely plays games on a PC anyway.

FSX owners is an INSTALLED market. It actually exists! You don't need to speculate. Flight's alleged casual market is a fantasy! It doesn't exist. Isn't it better from a business perspective to pursue a verifiable market than an imaginary one? There are millions of current FSX owners. Why would you not want to target them?

Obviously MS in their delusion thought they could capture BOTH markets with "Flight." Maybe 5% of FSX owners will buy content for Flight. Maybe 2% of so-called casual gamers who even bother to try Flight (and there could be only 45 such people--remember it's on a computer not a console) will purchase additional content for it. Add it up and you've got EPIC FAIL!


Edited by Plainsman (02/17/12 10:22 AM)
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#3520799 - 02/17/12 01:06 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
LarryHookins Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 22
Loc: Texas
I think everyone would lke to have the whole world. If there have been any posts against the idea on any forum I've visited, I don't remember them. I'd like to have the whole world myself.

Flight does have a lot going for it. Excellent frame rates with good grapics even on mid-end computers. A much more sophisticated flight model than FSX. Lots of serious simmer stuff that hasn't made it into the videos that Microsoft has released.

I never did much with the FSX missions, but loved the ones in Flight. I flew through some hoops, collected some coins, and learned a bit about precision flying in the process. Landing challenges were as good as anything I've ever encountered in a flight sim. I really enjoyed the aerocaches, as they took me to places I'd have gone anyway if I'd known about them.

Flight gave me a feeling of flying an actual aircraft, something that I never really got in 30 some years since the Apple 2. I'm still trying to figure out why.

One thing you might find interesting. Two different beta testers said that almost half the people they encountered while playing online had never heard of FSX. But they thought flying was really cool, a change from driving or shooting things. These guys had dozens of games and were very serious about them. There's a big market out there.

I won't be giving up FSX any time soon (unless somehow I get the rest of the world to fly in), but I won't be giving up Flight either. It's really compelling, even doing just 'serious' GA flying around Hawaii and ignoring the "gamier" aspects.

Hook

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#3520894 - 02/17/12 02:47 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Plainsman]
malibu43 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 1953
Loc: Belmont, CA
Originally Posted By: Plainsman


...

Once again, no one has provided a single CIVILIAN flight game title that was a hit with the casual crowd, as evidence such a market exists. Flight will be a COLOSSAL BLUNDER by MS. Their "market" is a fantasy. That's why they hedge in their description in the hope that the flight SIM crowd will be fooled enough to buy this...this thing, when the market they really want proves to be nonexistent.

...

Maybe 5% of FSX owners will buy content for Flight.

...



I'm just curious if you were able to try the Beta...?

The reason I ask is that (in my opinion) your assumption that Flight won't appeal to the existing FSX market (or that only 5% will buy any content) is incorrect. Just my opinion. You, of course, are entitled to yours. But I was just curious what experience you're basing that opinion on.


Edited by malibu43 (02/17/12 02:49 PM)
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#3521019 - 02/17/12 04:37 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
magicalflyer Offline
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Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 481
Loc: Indonesia
Just treat Flight as a whole different flightsim than being the "next-gen MSFS", and I believe most of us veteran MSFS users will be able to welcome it without prejudice. As I said before, Flight's future fate is in our hands. Rejecting it just because it's not the next MSFS will only make us responsible for the murder of a potentially good civilian flightsim.
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#3521028 - 02/17/12 04:56 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: magicalflyer]
Plainsman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 3445
Loc: In a Blue state, thank God
Originally Posted By: magicalflyer
Just treat Flight as a whole different flightsim than being the "next-gen MSFS", and I believe most of us veteran MSFS users will be able to welcome it without prejudice. As I said before, Flight's future fate is in our hands. Rejecting it just because it's not the next MSFS will only make us responsible for the murder of a potentially good civilian flightsim.


It can't be potentially good without the entire earth to fly in immediately! Right now, I'm enjoying the hell out of Antarctica X in FSX. How many years will it take at MS' pace before they make Antarctica available? Iran? Egypt? Israel? Brazil?

All they've got is Hawaii? And what about a variety of planes? Airliners? Where are they? Airports? Air traffic? Where is all that? A hope and a dream?
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#3521069 - 02/17/12 05:33 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Plainsman]
malibu43 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 1953
Loc: Belmont, CA
Originally Posted By: Plainsman
Originally Posted By: magicalflyer
Just treat Flight as a whole different flightsim than being the "next-gen MSFS", and I believe most of us veteran MSFS users will be able to welcome it without prejudice. As I said before, Flight's future fate is in our hands. Rejecting it just because it's not the next MSFS will only make us responsible for the murder of a potentially good civilian flightsim.


It can't be potentially good without the entire earth to fly in immediately! Right now, I'm enjoying the hell out of Antarctica X in FSX. How many years will it take at MS' pace before they make Antarctica available? Iran? Egypt? Israel? Brazil?

All they've got is Hawaii? And what about a variety of planes? Airliners? Where are they? Airports? Air traffic? Where is all that? A hope and a dream?


Yes, of course. Because for it to be considered "good" by anybody, it needs all those things you listed. rolleyes Just because those are your requirements for a "good" flightsim doesn't mean that's what other require for a "good" flightsim.

"Real Life" flying doesn't require that you fly all over the globe in large airliners, so why would a flight simulator require all of those things? I fly in "Real Life" and I've only flown one type of plane and haven't gone any more than 100 miles from my home airport.

I'm still curious if you've tried the beta or not...


Edited by malibu43 (02/17/12 05:33 PM)
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#3521077 - 02/17/12 05:39 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
magicalflyer Offline
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Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 481
Loc: Indonesia
You're still treating Flight as FSX follow-up, plainsman. I was as angry as you when I first heard about Hawaii-only, no-AI issues. But some people say it's not bad at all, simulation-wise. Then I tried to look at it as a whole new, different sim, disassociating it from MSFS completely. And it works. Hawaii only? Fine. It's not MSFS, and I enjoy flying Huey in Vietnam Med+Evac just as much as flying any chopper in MSFS world. No AI? Well, now this is problem. Hopefully an addon will fix this later. YMMV, of course.
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#3521157 - 02/17/12 07:10 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: magicalflyer]
Duncan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By: magicalflyer
Why would a "civilian flight simulator" need bombs and guns just to make it attractive to "wide audience"?

Because Hawai today in an icon is so boring but on 1941 7th december with a P51 it could be fun.

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#3521181 - 02/17/12 07:47 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Duncan]
magicalflyer Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 481
Loc: Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Duncan

Because Hawai today in an icon is so boring but on 1941 7th december with a P51 it could be fun.
I'm sorry, Duncan, but this is a civilian flightsim. It has an appeal of its own, it doesn't have to whore itself away like that. Besides, there's already a perfect sim available if you want to shoot something over Hawaii in 1940s.
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#3521189 - 02/17/12 07:58 PM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: Duncan]
malibu43 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 1953
Loc: Belmont, CA
Originally Posted By: Duncan
Originally Posted By: magicalflyer
Why would a "civilian flight simulator" need bombs and guns just to make it attractive to "wide audience"?

Because Hawai today in an icon is so boring but on 1941 7th december with a P51 it could be fun.


If folks think M$ is taking heat now, imagine what it will be like if they have a P-51 fighting Zeros over Pearl Harbor in 1941. behindcouch


Edited by malibu43 (02/17/12 07:59 PM)
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#3521413 - 02/18/12 05:54 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: magicalflyer]
Duncan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By: magicalflyer
I'm sorry, Duncan, but this is a civilian flightsim. It has an appeal of its own, it doesn't have to whore itself away like that. Besides, there's already a perfect sim available if you want to shoot something over Hawaii in 1940s.

Sorry if i miss that but did MS officially tell it will be limited to a civilian flight game ?
They also released CFS in the past which was rather well received.
With the DLC logic they could unify miltarian and civilian games in one.



Edited by Duncan (02/18/12 05:55 AM)

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#3521428 - 02/18/12 06:51 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
magicalflyer Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 481
Loc: Indonesia
Honestly, never came across official statement that says Flight is "civilian only". Neither have I ever found one about MSFS and X-Plane. But at least we all know they're designed as civilian flightsims. IMHO, it takes more than DLCs to make a military sim out of Flight (and MSFS and XPlane, for that matter). They have to consider things like, most importantly, weapons ballistic, AI (pilots, missiles, etc), damage modelling and campaign, among others. VRS did a great job bringing F/A-18E and all its weapons and enemies to MSFS world. But not enough. Not even close. I never use it for anything other than carrier qual and air refueling "missions".
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"It ebbs and flows, shipmate. A hot woman and a cold beer will put all this in proper perspective."

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#3521433 - 02/18/12 07:10 AM Re: Microsoft Flight boss on "rebooting franchise" [Re: jt_medina]
Duncan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 7
You're right, of course, about "it's not just a question of DLC", but MS is not simply an add-on publisher, they built and own the Flight engine so they could implement whatever they want if they think there is a demand of players.
I am just curious about that.

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