Well, in for a penny, in for pound ( uh, Euro, no wait, pound, yeah that's it. )

While perusing the DAW scenario I noticed that there aren't that many flyable planes. We've come a long way since this was put together so it's really no surprise.

My guess is it's time to pack as much 1.28 goodness into this it as possible without it becoming the all consuming project that SPAW turned into. In other words, I'm not going to spend a year working on it with four other guys from the ModSquad.

Be that said, I wouldn't mind upgrading the targets, TMOD's and plane set.

I'm fine upgrading the targets and TMOD's on my own. In fact, it's better that way as I don't have to debate what goes where with anyone else.

But the plane set is a different story. I can put a lot of it together from existing inventory and what I can't I'm sure I can cajole Iron Mike into doing. ( Right Mike? )

So here's what I think would make a good plane mix. It is open for discussion and amendment as needed:

NOTE - *** = new plane for DAW

Whirlwind Mk I *** ( c'mon, I gotta have ONE "what-if" )
Beaufighter Mk VI
Martlet III
Gladiator II
Halifax II
Liberator II
Marauder I
Kittyhawk Ia
Tomahawk IIb
Spitfire Vb
Hurricane IIb
Hurricane IIc
Hurricane IId ***
Wellington I

109 E-7
109 F-4
109 F-2
109 G-2
110 D-3
110 E-1
MC 200
MC 202
CR 42
210 A-1
Ju-88 A-10
Ju-52 /m3
Ju-87 D-3
He111 H-6

I have two slots open on the allied side. I'm thinking about a P-39, some version of the A-20 or an early P-38

Also, with the addition of the Hurricane IId we have three different Hurricane models. If we take one out what would go in it's place? Maybe an A-36 Apache?

On the Axis side there are four different 109's. If we take one or two out what would go in their places? Some FW190 model? How about an HS129?

So, have some fun, think outside the box and post what you'd like to see.

Not strictly planes but no doubt you are looking at

246 HMS Illustrious
247 HMS Ark Royal

and replacing them with 1.28 carriers on real sea tiles.

Jel

Sea Planes?

Sunderland, and Walrus
Blohm & Voss Bv 138

Yep, I'll be looking into adding carriers similar to the SPAW setup.






Hmmm, hadn't thought about seaplanes.

I just checked out the carriers.

Right next to them is a land tile by name but a water tile in appearance.
On the tilemap one is located in col 209 row 114 and the other in col 32 row 81.

I changed them to real water tiles, and flew a groundstart from the Illustrious.
As I expected there was a crash and explosion as soon as I started the engine.
This was the old and very clever bodge to even get carriers, but now we can have "real" which are on water tiles and take off from them.

Jel

Well Ray, we have sea plane bases as an option, but very few seem to think they are worth flying. Time to change minds? Maybe a U-boat to attack, for the Brits to attack and a convoy for the Axis? Don't forget Malta convoys all had carries and a lot of destroyer cover to protect the convoys from attack.

How far West does the map cover? Any chance of Gibraltar being on it?

The map covers from Sicily on the northwest to the Nile river on the southeast.

It does include most of Greece and even has some targets on that peninsular.





I suppose adding seaplanes would be OK for single missions and online play but I find myself wondering if the effort would be worth the results. The problem with seaplanes is that they can't compete with land based planes so there's no way to complete a campaign.

Just because we CAN do something in the game doesn't mean we SHOULD do something.

I feel the same way about flyable bombers. Not much fun to sit there flying formation waiting for the target to come in range while the enemy picks off your mates one by one.

Same for the 15rpm spinners that some models have.

Just one man's opinion.

That's the thing though Ray, if you stick with the most popular aircraft all the time, life gets very boring. During WWII there were hundreds of interesting aircraft doing various missions, so try to think out side the normal default planes, which are no doubt important, to make the game more interesting.

If the map had been further West, with Gib on the western end Malta on the Eastern side, it would have made for an interesting theater.

I agree about the variety of planes.

Heck that's why I produce so many lesser known craft.

Feedback from the community tells me that the online players only want historically accurate aircraft which limits what I can add for variety.

Fortunately, offline players are more adventurous. They are more inclined to look for the various odd planes and "what-if" type stuff.





Another problem is that the game engine is not set up for lesser missions like recon, search and rescue or level bombing.

I mean, I could build a new Hudson but who's going to fly around over the open water for hours at a time looking for u-boats, probably not finding any and returning to base with a zero score?

What I've found from experience is that if you produce something unusual the players will give it a go, say "that's nice" and return to regular game play pretty quickly.

For example, Woody and I got about 85% finished with a troop glider scenario when we realized that it had limited playability and no way to judge success. Lots of fun to bring your powerless glider to a landing in a field but then what?

Hi Ray,

Pretty good list. As far as Allied a/c are concerned you might want to look at a B25 Mitchell, probably B25C and perhaps an A20. Surely you need to add an SM79 to the Italians and a Fiat G50 at the very least with a SM 81, BR20 and a Cant Bomber as possibilities, instead of duplicated Me 109/110 and the Me 210 was only I think in Italy for a short time before being replaced with the 410. Of course if you add carrier aircraft it gets far more complicated - Fulmar, Sea Hurricane and Seafire as well as Swordfish and Albacore to go with the Martlet (Wildcat),

Cheers,

Pete

I can paint up a bunch of skins but I'm not sure of the time involved. Also, since the types fall into different slots (the Hurricane IIc is in slot 12, the Spit 14) the FMs would need to be reassigned buy Ralf if he is willing.

The B-26A flew in desert colors too.

The anti shipping bit is a huge part of the greater campaign. Ju88 torpedo bombers from Sardinia and Sicily for example. The air transport portion is another facet. The use of the Me 363 (?) Giant and Ju 52s need to be factored in.

Interesting aint't it?

Hi,

in our planes folder we have this FM´s right away.

P38F
P40N
Martlet III
P40E
P51A
P40C
A20B
B24
Beaufighter Mk IVC-1
Hurri1A (Hurri IIb is fast done)
SpitVb
Gladiator II
Spitfire Vc
SpitIXc Merlin61
Hurricane IIc
Blenheim V

109 E-7
109 F-2
109 F-4
110 C-4
110 F-4
Me210A
Fiat G50bis
190A4
109 G-2
Ju-88 A-4
Ju-88 C-3
Ju-87 D-7
He111 H-6
Do17z

Hi guys,

With southern Italy and the southern adriatic on the map there is certainly scope for torpedo attacks on Italian naval units too.... Taranto here I come and of course we need a Crete campaign too with paradrops




cheers,


Pobs

Well that helps out quite a bit, thanks Ralf.




Anyone have a problem if I take out the biplanes?

I first developed the paratroopers mod years back for one of The Firm's very early downloads. Recently I've been looking at the paratroop loadouts in Dunkirk as I'm making a cockpit/wingview for a flyable Ju52 in that mod.

The paras are currently effectively a bomb loadout and they tend to explode on impact and turn into craters.

I'm wondering if it would be feasible to have an OAW-loadable alternative set of files for para missions only that would for example get rid of the bomb explosion sprite and crater 3dz and replace them with a simple standing/crouching paratrooper 3dz.

Hi Peter.

I wanted the flight crew bailing out, to land and spawn either a pilot in a dingy, on water, or crouched pilot if on land.

But the idea went nowhere.

Yeah but as I wrote yesterday, what's the point?

1 - Can't play it in campaign mode. Who want's to make 30 or 40 parachute drops? I mean, real pilots probably made a couple of drops under fire during the whole war.

2 - EAW can't score the missions.

3 - More than likely you won't even get home alive from the first mission. Can't dogfight in a C-47. Well, you CAN but you're gonna loose.

Sorry to sound so negative but I think we need to "keep it real" as the kids say.

btw, if we use the planes folder for this, its very easy to replace planes later and/or to create new plane sets including new campaign setups for the area in question.

Paratroops might be interesting as loadout for an escort mission. To fly a C47 imho dont make much sence, but some also like to fly the most slow bomber in realtime to berlin. It might be already possible to setup a loadout without an impact, for sure its possible to evade the craters.

Ray,

I wasn't suggesting the player fly the paradrops particularly, but escorting them as an adapted bombing mission on Maleme airfield for instance may be fun, and the campaign engine certainly can score them, we just need to define the paratroops as a new 'bomb' type so that hitting the airfield with them will trigger the victory condition for the mission. Moggy, the problem with the craters is that every bomb uses the same crater so all your bomb loads would spawn crouching paratroops, we would need to define a new crater and allocate it to just the one loadout option...

regarding the biplanes, pity to lose the swordfish since they made some of their most famous torpedo attacks on the Italian fleet in this theatre...


cheers,


Pobs

Ok, I'm fine with using the plane folder system but I'll need help setting it up as I'm way out of the loop on how to implement it.

Once I finalize the list I'll post it here so we can get started on it.

One question ( for now ). Can I use the V1 slot for any plane? If you remember, I have a Zero in that slot in SPAW and I want to make sure it's OK to do so with DAW.

I actually found it quite fun to fly a Ju52 to a Dutch airfield, drop the paratroopers, and then get back in one peice.

But that may say quite a lot about me

No Swordfish, and no Blackburn Skua?

http://luftfart.museum.no/Engelsk/Restoration/Blackburn%20Skua.htm

So replace the Gladiator with the Swordfish?

Do we even have a Skua in inventory?

No, ditch a 4 engine bomber.

And yes there is a Skua dive bomber but only LR, but I guess it's easy to convert, but will need a bit of work as it's really a PAW Kate 3dz.


I just love the BIG ammo.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm

Hi Ray,

Did consider Swordfish and Albacore but you would have to take something out. Of course I would also like a Baltimore and/or Maryland but I expect that will have to wait for the Hampden?

Pete

Well Peter, don't forget the different time selections. We are not stuck with one set for all the years, we can have different folders for each year.

We dont need to take anything out!

We can have up to 10 Plane sets.

This could get out of hand very quickly.

Oy!

paint...paint...paint...

By Tailspin if memory serves.

Moggy DCM

Ok, I'll take a look at the model, thanks.

Before discussing the planeset I´d ask which time of the campaign should be depicted:
1)The early days between the Regia aeronautica, the Armee de l'Air and the RAF
2)The main campaign between the Luftwaffe, the Regia Aeronautica and the RAF
3)The final days in Tunisia between the Luftwaffe, the USAAF, the USN, the Vichy AF, the Regia Aeronautica and the RAF
4)Parallel to 2) and 3) there´s the Malta campaign
Each campaign requires a different planeset. There are different campaign sets available for Classic EAW. Should those be merged together or a new DAW be created? This would make it easier because this would include only 2) and 4) without the planes for the Tunisian Final (e.g the complete US planeset, the Fw 190, the Hs 129, the Me 210/410 and the M.C.205 )

Since we can have up to 10 planesets, we can cover all, we just need to start somewhere.
Even the Malta campaign can get included.

Currently we dont have all needed FM´s available, at least not for EAW1.28e/f.

Gentlemen, I´ve listed up the different planetypes being used during the different stages of the North Africa campaign. I don´t claim this list being complete but I think the main types are included.
Scratch the unimportant ones and a DAW scenarion can be cretaed IMO. One problem exists, though - Tunisia is not included in the scenario map:

Early campaign

Hawker Hart
Hawker Hurricane I
Gloster Gauntlet Mk II
Gloster Gladiator I, II
Gloster Sea Gladiator
Bristol Blenheim Mk I,
Bristol Blenheim Mk IV
Bristol Bombay
Blackburn Skua
Vickers Valentia

French AF (on allied side)
Curtiss H.75 Hawk
Dewoitine D.520
Morane MS.230
Morane MS.406
Martin Maryland

Fiat C.R.32
Fiat C.R.42
Fiat G.50
Breda Ba.65
Savoia S.M.75
Savoia S.M.79
Caproni Ca.309

Main campaign

Hawker Hurricane IIb
Hawker Hurricane IIc
Hawker Hurricane IId
Gloster Gladiator Mk I, II
Bristol Blenheim Mk I, IV
Bristol Blenheim V
Bristol Beaufort
Bristol Beaufighter Mk IV
Spitfire Vb
Spitfire Vc
Curtiss P-40C/Tomahawk
Curtiss P-40E/Kittyhawk
Grumman Martlet III
Fairey Fulmar
Martin Maryland
Martin Baltimore
Douglas A-20B/ Boston
B-24D/ Liberator
B-25/Mitchell
Vickers Wellington

Fiat C.R.42
Fiat G.50
Macchi M.C.200
Macchi M.C.202
CANT Z.1007
Savoia S.M.79

Bf109 E-4, E-7
Bf109 F-2/Trop
Bf109 F-4/Trop
Bf109 G-2/Trop
Bf110 C-4
Bf110 E-1/-4
Ju87 B-2
Ju88 A-4
Ju88 C-6 Nightfighter
He111 H-6
Ju 52 /3m

Late campaign

Hawker Hurricane IIc
Hawker Sea Hurricane II
Spitfire Vc
Spitfire IXc
Seafire I, II
Bristol Bisley
Fairey Albacore
Mosquito NF-2
Handley-Page Halifax
P-40E/Kittyhawk
Curtiss P-40F/Warhawk
Bell Airacobra
Grumman Wildcat
Lockheed P-38F Lightning
Lockheed P-38G Lightning
Douglas Dauntless
Douglas A-20B/ Boston
GrummanAvenger
B-17F/Fortress
B-24D/Liberator
Martin B-26B Marauder

Fiat G.50bis
Macchi M.C.200
Macchi M.C.202
Macchi M.C.205
Reggiane Re.2001
CANT Z.1007bis
CANT Z.506B
Savoia S.M.79
Savoia S.M.84
Bf109 F-4/Trop
Bf109 G-2/Trop
Bf109 G-6/Trop
Fw190A-3/Trop
Bf110 E-1/-4
Bf110 F-4
Me210
Hs 129B
Ju87 D-3
Ju88 A-4
He111 H-6
Ju 52 /3m
Me323

Vichy AF (on Axis side)
Curtiss H.75 Hawk
Dewoitine D.520
Bloch 174
Loire LeO 451
Douglas DB-7
Martin Maryland
Potez 63.11

(The Vichy AF changed sides again in '43 switching their Dewoitines for P-40s)

Fran, thanks. That list helps a lot.

I'll use it as I peruse the EAW world looking for candidates.

You´re welcome, Ray
Just to set the time frame for the different stages:

Early: June '40 - March '41 (Italian attack - Operation Compass)
Main: April '41 - October '42 (Rommel appears - El Alamein)
Late: October '42 - May '43 (Retreat to surrender)

Hi Fran,

That is quite a list and seems to cover just about everything except for a few allied transport aicraft such as the Bombay, Harrow/Sparrow and DC3, but I doubt there are models of the Bombay and Harrow available and I can't see anybody making such little known aircraft. I also wonder in an SM81 might be a better proposition than a 75 as I think there is a model available - might even have been in the "Malta" set?

Pete

Still no flot planes?

paint...paint...paint...

Working on a few floaters, John. Found some real oddballs on some of our lesser known contributors sites.

Going through Frans list I can fill out the middle and final campaigns pretty well but planes from the early campaign for the most part are not available. I could put together a floatplane scenario in that first slot and divide up the rest of the desert air war into the other two lots.

I'll have to see if I'm really that ambitious.

I need a Bombay for Iraq. That and a Ju90. So I just might when other things are done ...

Good for you Moggs. Let me know if you want plans/pics as I have the odd one or two.

Pete