I am having an odd problem with the weapon profile not staying "loaded". What I mean is that I go to say the GBU 12 profile, set auto lasing w/th 15 seconds, CCRP then save the profile. Then I select it and make it my active profile. I then go back to the main DSMS page and the profile is gone, or reset...

Once I make the profile active am I not able to go to any other page? Or am I missing something.

Thanks!

I am guessing you are selecting your weapons via the DSMS page and pressing the OSB buttons to select the weapon. I used to do it this way too. If I selected a CBU-97, changed it from CCIP to CCRP, saved it, changed the weapon, then went back to my -97, it was back to CCIP. I'm not sure why it does this even though you've clicked "Save," the reason is probably buried in some obscure page in the manual.

Anyway, to get it to save your profiles, you need to make HUD your SOI (Coolie Hat Up Short), the DMS left/right to bring up the desired weapon on the left side of the HUD. Go to the DSMS page and you will find your weapon already selected. OSB 1 to view Stat page, OSB 3 to view profiles, then change and save anything you want. You can then cycle through your weapons as desired and then you go back to the previous weapon, it will still retain your new settings.

This is confusing to me, too. Go through all the steps to set the profiles for all the weps, only to come back to DSMS and see the settings not changed when you need them.

I'm leaning more to simply looking at the center of DSMS for the selected weapons - selecting the weapons with the MFCD and noting what the DSMS lists for Single vs Pairs and CCIP vs CCRP and then going to Profile for that weapon and changing the setting and Save, then back to Stat.


It seems like the other way of setting all weapons at the same time sometimes works but I don't know why. I'm aware of it now and have gotten quick on the buttons.

Wrecking Crew

Like I said, it's the difference between selecting weapons manually through the DSMS and OSB buttons vs selecting weapons through the HUD. IIRC, you can even have TWO profiles for one weapon, for instance, you could have your CBUs have a CCIP profile and a CCRP profile and switch between the two easily.

Now I do not check the DSMS page when selecting weapons. The left MFD is always the TAD page. I just select HUD as SOI and select my weapon (and weapon profile) through there.

You can tell when you're about to set a manual (thus temporary) profile by looking at the weapon profile name listed on the left side of the MFCD (OSB 20) when you're making profile changes. If there's an "M/" at the front, you're about to create a temporary profile that will be lost once you deselect that profile.

To edit a stored profile, ensure no weapons are selected on the DSMS page THEN press the profile button. You should see a list of stored profiles. Select the one you want by pressing OSB 19 and 20 to go up and down the list. Then press the View Profile button (OSB 3) and edit the profile like you have been. Don't forget to save it!

If you're already editing a manual profile, you can save it to a stored profile using the NEW[] button (OSB 18). After making your changes (and pressing the Return button (OSB 2) if you're editing settings like Auto Lase), type the profile name into the UFC then press this button to save it to memory. When you hit left or right DMS with the HUD as SOI, you should see your profile in the cycle.

Just two?

You can have up to 25 profiles loaded in to the DSMS. You should have a profile for each attack type, not just each weapon. For example, one profile for a Mk-82 20 degree low angle low drag delivery, another for a Mk-82 45 degree high altitude dive bomb, another for Mk-82 medium altitude toss. Then one for mavericks, and one or two for rockets depending on the delivery types you plan to employ. If you're carrying Mk-82s and CBUs, you'd probably have 3 or 4 profiles for each weapon type.

My usual profile number for a general on-call CAS or training sortie is around 8-10 profiles depending on payload. You'd have to be flying a highly pre-planned, one pass mission for only one profile per weapon to be effective.

As for the OP's problem, DO NOT select weapons using the MFCD OSBs on the main DSMS page. Use either the DMS with HUD as SOI, the select rocker on the UFC or the profile page on the DSMS and the ACTivate PROfile OSB. Each time you select weapons using the OSBs on the main DSMS page, you create a new manual profile, rather than using one of the saved profiles.

You can also tell because it will say "M/XXXX" (where XXXX is the weapon name) in the left-hand side of the HUD.

Thanks for that quick tutorial on creating a new profile!

I don't play with Mk-82s that often, though I wonder what are the possible profiles for CBUs or GBUs then? Usually I only have one CCIP and one CCRP profile for each bomb type (so carrying CBU-87s and -97s = 4 profiles) so that I can switch between the two modes (CCIP or CCRP) easily. And as my favorite mode of deliver is CCRP, that's what I use most often, reserving the CCIP profiles for when I'm padlocked on ground targets and don't have time to fiddle with the TGP.

Why would you have a different profile for a low-angle bomb run vs a high-angle bomb run? And why a different profile for a bomb toss? What are you changing in each of those situations? Unless you are talking about different pulse/ripple single/ripple pair or bomb spacing, I am a bit confused why you would have more than 2 or 3 profiles per weapon type.

Desired time of flight, SEM, min alt, fuse settings etc etc. Basically all the parameters of the profile that effect your delivery. Ripple settings are about the only thing that will be same across all profiles.

Huh? That totally wasn't the answer I was expecting.

For example, I would've thought that you'd want ripple spacing to be tighter or looser depending on the spread of your targets, but you say it is the same across all profiles? Am I missing something?

As for the settings you mentioned: desired time of flight -- shouldn't this be "however long it takes for the bomb to hit the ground"? Why would you want it any longer/shorter? I'm a bit lost about fuse settings (n, t, n/t) as well. I know what they MEAN, I just don't know why you'd want one over the other. One thing that baffles me too is the escape maneuver --- why would it even care if you make a climb, turn, or the third option?

The min-alt I understand as this prevents you from releasing too low and catching yourself in the frag... so it is a safety feature.

Well, sounds like you got some major knowledge gaps then. I'll see if I can fill them in a bit.



Yes, you're missing something. Your release spacing has less to do with your target's spread (almost nothing to do with it in fact) and more to do with the weapons you are using. If we take the Mk-82 as an example, you're ripple spacing is 75ft. Why? Because 75ft between each bomb is the spacing at which the explosive yield of the Mk-82 produces the most damage. Any closer and you are not making the most of the weapons capability, any further and you're spreading your bombs too thin, and will be less effective as a result.

To give some perspective, for Mk-84s a 150ft spacing is most effective. And for CBU-87, the ripple settings should allow for around 60ft of bomblet pattern overlap. With ripple single used for soft targets and ripple pairs for armoured targets.



It is how long it take the bomb to hit the ground. But from what altitude?! The point of DTOF is to provide you aiming cues via the Desired Release Cue (little horizontal line on the PBIL). If you hold the DRC on the target, the pipper will move up the PBIL to meet it. Once the two symbols meet, releasing the weapons will result in the desired time of flight, and as a result you'll be releasing at the altitude you planned.



Well, many of the RW fusing options are not simulated in DCS, and there are still a few errors in the modelling. But low drag/high drag/pilot option for Mk-82AIRs are the setting most will come across.



The safe escape manoeuvre is just about the most important part of the weapon delivery. The SEM you select is used by the IFFCC (in addition to the min alt) to generate real time safe escape cues (RTSE) in the form of the CCIP minimum release cue etc. It is the method by which you ensure you are able to escape from the frag or your own weapons and avoid hitting the terrain.

The options are Climb, Turn, and Turn-Level-Turn. There is a forth SEM, Level Straight Through, but that isn't really used in the A-10C and as such missing from the DSMS profile settings, but can still be carried out using the None setting.

Example: Climbing SEM





Actually, you don't really understand it. It's not to keep you safe from frag (although it is used in the RTSE calculations), it can be set to 0 and the IFFCC will still give you RTSE cues based on the selected SEM and the weapon/fusing you're using. The RW min altitude settings are derived (like some other aspect of the weapon profile) from mission planning software and publication the public don't (and never will) have access to. But there are certain parameters than you can employ. For example, if you want to stay out of the most effective range of MANPADS, set min alt to 6000. That way the IFFCC will give you the abort cues if you are not going to be able to release your weapons without dropping below that height. Another use depends on the delivery type, for example in a high altitude dive bomb attack you should descend below 4500ft, so set you min alt to 4500 or above.

Here's an example of a Z-Diagram for a 45 degree HADB BDU-33 (simulated Mk-82) delivery. I won't go in to detail explaining what each number means(it'd need a post much longer than this one), but hopefully you can work some of them out and it'll give an idea of how involved 'mud moving' really is when you start doing more than just 'put the thing on the thing'.



And for another example, here's a screenshot of the pre-set profiles in the Virtual Hawgsmoke 2012 mission. See if you can work out what each profile is for.

If a SEM doesn't affect the blast radius in anyway why does the DSMS need to know how you will 'escape'? I am on the training mission that is mentioning this and couldn't work out why you need 3 options.

Because if it doesn't know which SEM you'll be using, it can't know how far away from the weapon impact you will be when they impact, and therefore if you'll be outside the blast radius.

With each SEM you'll be in a different position/distance when the weapons impact. A turning SEM will leave you closer to the point of impact than a climbing SEM, therefore with a climbing SEM you can be a bit closer/lower when you release and still be able to safely escape the blast.

And as a picture speak a thousand words, here's diagram of the turning SEM so you can compare with the Climb SEM above.

Ah right I see, it affects the deployment of the ordnance, when the DSMS allows it to be released, rather than the impact.

BTW are you RAF? Just noticing your location and knowledge.

Not when it 'allows' weapons to be released as such. The system will never stop you releasing weapons, but it will give you the abort cues on the HUD (cross in the pipper etc) to tell you it's a really bad idea.



Yes, amongst other things.

Haha! Thank you very much for that very informative post!


So the spacing is just to ensure the blast radius or the effective damage radius is properly utilized? I always thought pilots guesstimated the spacing of the targets and adjusted the ripple to match so that each bomb would drop in the vicinity of the enemy along the convoy or tank column.



DTOF always made sense as a string of words and I did assume that it was for release at a specific altitude, but always wondered "what if you were higher or lower than your desired altitude by the time you got the thing on the thing?" So DTOF only affect the HUD cues and does not affect the bomb at all? ie, if you release above the planned altitude the bomb won't explode in the air or if you release below the planned altitude, the bomb won't plunk on the ground, wait a few seconds, then explode?



I understand the fusing options for the AIRs, and IIRC some of the other bigger bombs had this too, ie, make it a tail fusing so that the bomb penetrates more before exploding, is this the other uses for it?



Yes, the escape maneuver is important, but why bother mentioning whether is is a climb, turn, or TLT? Does it just affect the HUD cues? I always just though "bugger out after the bombs come off" and usually do a climbing turn both to escape any incoming fire and regain altitude. However, in this game, I am always guilty of botching the escape maneuver to watch the "fireworks."



I have no clue at all what this means and would like to know more about it... can you tell me where you got this, or at least where you got the info for it? Would love to know the profiles for other weapons as well!


Eddie, if I understand this right, all the settings there (DTOF, fusing, SEM, etc.) are just set to ensure that you release the weapon at the altitude and attitude you have planned, is that right? I always thought you just place the CCIP pipper on target and the computer did all the calculations for you...



Hmmm... the first is for a low-drag release, the second is for a 20-degree dive low-drag release, the third is for a 45-degree high-angle low-drag release, the fourth is for a high-altitude (10K) release, and the last is a rocket profile. All BDU profiles are set to release 3 bombs as well. How'd I do?


This has been one of the most brain-stirring posts I've had to do. Thanks for sharing your knowledge Eddie!

Great stuff, Eddie! Thanks!

Yes, it only the HUD cues that are affected. It's just a feature to provide you with cues to help you deliver the weapons they way you want to.



IRL, every different fuse configuration needs a separate profile, and you can't change fuse settings in flight like you can in the sim (apart from with some advanced programmable fuses that are not modelled in the sim). So for example, if you have 4 Mk-82s on the aircraft, and 2 are set with an impact fuse and 2 with an air burst fuse you would need to have 1 profile for each, rather than just one Mk-82 profile.



Yes, it just affects the HUD cues and the underlying IFFCC calculations. Like everything else, IRL the SEMs are defined in black and white, and they are the most effective and efficient that they can be, but in the sim you can do whatever you want. Although nothing you can do will be better or more effective than a proper SEM.

Anther point to note with SEMs is that if your attack will involve a dive angle above 20 degrees, only the climbing SEM should be used.



When the vHawgsmoke SOPs are released sometime next week (fingers crossed), there is an explanation for the Z diagrams in it, so even if you're not taking part in vHawgsmoke, the SOP will have some info in that you might find useful.

In the meantime, here's an extract from the 2010 real world Hawgsmoke Mils document, it's one of the source documents used to plan vHawgmsoke and it has some good weapon delivery information in.

Hawgsmoke Mils



The first is a Visual Level Delivery (VLD), the second and 20 degree Low Angle Low Drag (LALD), the third a 45 degree High Altitude Dive Bomb (HADB) and the forth is a 30 degree/10 degree Medium Altitude Toss (MAT). So you were actually not far off at all. And FYI, these profile are all named as per the real world A-10C profile naming convention.




Good, I must be doing something right then. Always glad to share with anyone who wants to know.

I'm sure Morgan Freeman says in the unguided bombs training in DCS that you HAVE to have a SEM set for a release to be made but earlier you said it could be set to none, is that in RL or the sim?

Both RW and in sim.

I see, good to know it only affects HUD cues and not the actual bombs themselves.



Copy... some things where concessions were made in sim vs RL.



Why only the climb SEM? To reduce the chance of stalling the aircraft? Lol, obviously the TLT won't be appropriate!



Small things like this is awesome to know -- no real use but adds to the immersion of playing "pretend fighter pilot" immensely.




The only thing you're not doing right is not posting here more often!

Thanks again for sharing and please do so more and more in the future!!

Pretend.....? *takes of flightsuit and helmet and sulks*

I'm surprised you're not sucking your thumb, as you'll feel better quicker.

I'll take your word for that Ice, whatever helps you out

Hehe... I can't win with you, can I?

Eddie what ripple spacing would you suggest for the CBU-97? I'm putting together a checklist with weapon quick reference notes and would like to include pearls of wisdom like the info you've posted from above.

Cheers

Well the footprint of a -97 is around 1200ft x 500ft (real world, haven't confirmed in the sim so it might be worth checking), and just like -87s you'd want some overlap between each CBUs pattern.

Now the issue with 97s is that the BLUs (and the skeets) tend to cluster in groups, both in the sim and in real life, so the actual dispersal pattern isn't as uniform as with the -87s.

I don't know what the real world numbers are, due to the fact that -97s haven't actually been used by the A-10 (or most other aircraft for that matter, outside of testing) there are no reference documents out there like for other ordnance. I also don't use 97s very often in the sim so haven't done any extensive experimentation. But I'd be inclinded to go with a 600ft spacing to allow for a large overlap, keeping in mind that altough the CBU 'could' cover a 1200ft x 500ft area it won't in reality.

As for ripple settings I'd go for ripple pairs for any closely grouped targets, and ripple single for more dispersed targets. And obviously for best effectiveness with 97s just like 87s your attack heading should be in line with how the units and distributed on the ground (ie, if an armoured group is in a rectangular formation with the longest sides of the formation running East/West, attack from the east or west).

Thanks Eddie! And for the -87 you use a 500' spacing?

97's function very well with a 300ft spacing, rippled in singles.

Interesting to note that -97s have not been used in real life. They are my favorite weapons for groups of tanks. Eddie, if you've not used -97s enough in the sim, I wonder what you use most often?

As for ripple single vs ripple pairs for CBU-97, I wonder why you would want to release pairs? I understand ripple singles to cover a longer area over your axis of attack, but a pair release won't really widen your attack coverage, so aren't you just wasting a -97?

For -87s, I think ripple pairs will allow for more saturation of bomblets over the area and ripple singles will again allow for longer area over your axis of attack, but since the -97 skeets are supposed to find and home in on armor, I'm confused with regards to this advise regarding -97s.

Incorrect - they have been used with great success




Pretty much, yes. For accurate dispersion along the length of a convoy, 250 knot/2200 HOF/300ft interval works well, with the number of CBU's rippled individually dependant on the length of the convoy.



What advice?

CBUs are a specialist weapon, so I don't use either all that often. Most of the time Mavs, 82s, Paveway, JDAM, rockets and gun are the right tool for the job.

CBUs are only effective against grouped targets, and unless you're flying missions that have been designed with 'shooting fish in a barrel' in mind, quite often CBUs are just dead weight.

They have been used in combat (Iraq 2003), but not by the A-10 and only in a very small number. As has been said by others, while the A-10 can carry the 97, it's not even listed in the tech manuals and hasn't been carried outside of trials and evaluation.

CBUs are a bit of a cold war relic, many countries have removed them from the inventory altogether. They are great for large groups of vehicles in open terrain, but in the modern world, beyond North Korea rolling across the DMZ or China suddenly going mental you won't find many uses for them, and they also present a danger to your own troops and non-combatants due to the high number of bomblets that don't explode (the SFW was an effort to reduce this aspect).



As with 87s, it's about submunition pattern density. More submunitions in a given area will increase your Pk. If your target is only 3 T-80s, then one 97 would be the right choice. If however you've got a stupid ground commander who's had 10 T-80s park in close proximity, then a pair (and therefore double the submunition density) is mroe likely to ensure Pk.

Remember, NEVER carry out a second attack pass when you can do the job with one.

For those who play with a gaming mindset and go out trying to get the highest number of kills, rather than fly with a realistic mindset, it might appear to be a waste of weapons. But it isn't, for the same reason you would ripple fire AMRAAMs etc in BVR combat in a fighter, you employ multiple weapons in the A/G role.



Yes, they are smart and they will detect targets, but they do not 'home in' on armour. All they'll do is detonate if a target happens to end up in their line of sight as they spin towards the ground rather than actually having to hit the target like other weapons, if they don't see a target they'll just detonate prior to hitting the ground. You still need to have enough skeets in the air spread out over a large enough area for them to hit each target.

I am getting a DSMS PROF ERROR when I try to load more than a total of 20 profiles. Sim DSMS seems limited to 20 profiles. (which should be more than enough for me lol).

Cheers

Lol, pardon my mistake, Viper. I do mean the CBU-97 and the A-10 in real-life use.


Using -97s in ripple pairs.


Wow, I didn't realize that. As for CBUs being useful against grouped targets, most of the time I see at least 2-4 tanks in a group, so I drop one on them. Even if the tanks were in a line-abreast formation, my single CBU-97 can take out at least 2 of them, 3 or 4 if I'm lucky with the skeets. It is for this "one bomb and kill multiple targets" mentality that I find the -97 awesome, the same applies for -87s and softer armor.

Do the sentiments above also apply for the CBU-87?



Ah, that explains it. Yes, for more than 3-4 tanks in one area, a double-drop of CBU-97s is a good option.




Quote form Wikipedia:


I always interpreted that as the skeet homes in on armor within the area that it is scanning, ie, the armor does not have to be directly UNDER the skeet, but if it is within the "range" of the skeet, the skeet can still "reach" it and damage/disable the tank. Obviously, the challenge here (submunition dispersion) is getting enough skeets in the air to increase the chances of a skeet being near armor to increase Pk.

The launch sequence of the BLU-108 weapon is pretty complicated and I haven't seen a good reference to share, but what really happens is the BLU-108 skeet wobbles when shot and the onboard sensor is essentially searching the ground in a repeating cone pattern. If a target is found within the seeker coning pattern, the skeet detonates, shooting its shape-formed projectile (hopefully) into the target.

I do know how to change the settings for the MK82AIR in order to get a low-drag or a high-drag config but do fuze settings etc. change anything on the regular MK82 or MK84? To me it seems that they all behave like having an impact fuse in the sim. Can it be changed to detonate before it hits the target (burst fuse)?

No. Air-burst not currently modelled In-SIM.

The thing is, the skeet doesn't 'home in' on anything. They are totally ballistic and have to guidance system at all. All they have is an passive IR and laser sensor system than scans as the skeet is spinning towards the ground. IF the skeet's sensor detects a valid target in it's field of view by the laser picking up sudden changes in height and the IR sensor picking up the IR pattern of a vehicle (both sensors together must produce add up to a profile of a valid target), it detonates sending an explosively formed projectile toward the target.

The skeets cannot control their direction in any way, so if they detect and detonate for a target on the limits of their range the EFP might do little dammage, or miss altogether. And if they don't see anything on the way down, the skeets will either auto detonate at 50ft AGL or if the fusing system fails and they cannot detonate they will deactivate themselves.



No, individual fuse types are not modelled. Regardless of the fuse you select, a weapon will detonate on impact.

Thanks for your answer. So, if I unterstand correctly:

- changing fuzes is only necessary if you want to change the drag-configs (high and low) of a MK82AIR
- changing fuzes of a "regular" MK82 or MK84 will not change anything in the game

Ice you may find this thread useful:
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84287&page=16
Especially the file attached to post #156

Thanks guys.

And thanks for the explanation about how the skeets work. It is exactly as how I thought it would be, though perhaps my wording was not so clear. I used the term "home in" to describe the skeet detecting and firing a projectile to a target; after all this I still do not know what proper phrase can be used to describe this. Still, this characteristic of a -97 is what I like about it compared to the "carpet bombing" tactic of the -87 and it's bomblets.

Questions for Eddie -

About TOF - Time To Fall - for GBUs?

When I am at 20,000+ feet altitude and want to drop a GBU-31, let's say, if I don't change the time to fall or other profile parameters then my release cue tells me to release pretty close to the target/SPI.

If I were to increase the TOF would that allow me to drop from much farther away? Shouldn't a GBU-31 and similar weps be able to "fly in" to the target from a few miles away, 5-6, 10 even, at the least? Am I talking the right terms?

TIA

Wrecking Crew

Looking at the TO, real world we can't adjust TOF for GBU-31 or 38s. I haven't checked in the sim. You can however adjust for GBU-10s and 12s.

Time of Fall is simply the desired time it will take the munition to fall to the target (0.00 to 99.9 seconds).

The TO defines it as:

Time of Fall/Flight Display. A continuously computed time-of-fall/flight display exists for all weapons. The display appears when there is a valid CCIP or CCRP solution, and the aircraft is within the CCIP or CCRP envelope limit. When a weapon is released, the display counts down to zero in whole seconds, flashes for five seconds, and then is removed. Up to 3 weapon releases can be tracked simultaneously. Reappearance of the display is inhibited for subsequent weapons delivery passes for at least five seconds once it is removed.

Time Of Fall/Flight (TOF) Display. A continuously computed TOF is displayed for all weapons except the gun. The display will appear when there is a valid CCIP or CCRP solution for the weapon/profile selected and the aircraft is within the CCIP or CCRP envelope limit. When a weapon is released, the display will count down to zero (in whole seconds), flash for 5 seconds, and then be removed.

Wouldn't that mean tossing it off? There was no other way to word that and although I am Mr Innuendo I really didn't mean it that time

WC, from how I understood previous discussions, changing TOF simply changes your HUD cues. Meaning if you wanted a shorter TOF, the HUD cue would direct you to a lower release altitude, higher TOF = higher release altitude. I don't think it allows you to "release from further away" from a given altitude, ie, releasing from 20,000 AGL does not mean longer TOF = the bomb can "cruise" to the target from further away or shorter TOF = the bomb "zips" to the target from closer in --- simply because the bomb will always follow a ballistic path to the target +/- whatever margin of error possible given the LGB/IAM guidance can compensate for. So unless you are changing some parameter in some drastic way, like doubling your airspeed (if you figure out how to do that, tell us!), I presume your distance-to-target upon release will be more-or-less the same no matter what your TOF is.

Of course if I am way off here, I'm happy to be corrected

TOF simply tells the system how long you PLAN on having the weapon fall to the target, in other words how high & fast you plan to release from.

You can't magically make an un-powered weapon fly further without somehow giving it more energy with which to fly further. Put simply, the only way to make a weapon fly further is to either be higher or faster (or both) when you release. In the A-10 faster isn't really an option so you can only go higher.

Yes a JDAM or similar weapon can fly 10 miles (or even further) to the target, when dropped from a high performance fighter/bomber doing 500-600 knots (or more) at 30,000ft. But not from an A-10.

In reality there are many parameters that can be chosen/adjusted by the pilot in regards to a JDAMs (or similar modern guided bomb) flight, including the angle and heading from which it hits the target, and you can also release a JDAM when not flying directly at the target in reality. Although exactly how such things work in the A-10C, or even if they are supported, I don't know.



Spot on.

Thanks everyone!



And - Ice, you've seen my afterburners?
Screaming Warthog


WC

Yeah, but did that double your airspeed?

It probably more than doubled his rate of descent.



The Jedi Master

Well, there goes his "release from altitude" option.