Hi all,

I was a bit hesitant to post this--it's still VERY early on and what I have isn't very pretty to look at right now. But, I have a lot of core code elements in and working, so I thought maybe it was time to introduce it.

The working title is called Rogue Space, and if I were to describe the game play in one sentence it would be, "Wing Commander with dynamic elements and a bit of Microsoft Flight Sim thrown in for good measure." However, there is also a very strong Elite, or Privateer influence as well.

Anyway, here is a link to a video I've put together showing some of these primary features, and hopefully from that you'll get an idea of where I'm taking this, and the potential. And I'm sorry up front for the voiceover--I was running on very little sleep when I recoded it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdv09AyJ5jo

Also, here's a link to a sort of development journal I keep at the forums for the engine I'm using:

http://forums.nuclearglory.com/index.php?as=qbwwnlzqugjoixdvwwtcgrf0xbzzgqsk&tid=2687

By profession I'm a game developer, so I'm not daunted by the task, and I have every intention of seeing it through. In fact, I have an interesting distribution model idea that would allow me to work on this over a long period and release new game play elements as they are completed. The first goal though is to get the core game up and running.

My hope is there is some market out there for this type of game. I loved playing these when I was younger and was very sad when the genre sort of died out. I don't plan on ever getting rich of off this. In fact, if no one ever bought it I wouldn't care. But I think every effort to try and revive this genre is worth it, so that's what I'm working to achieve...

Cheers all...

Wow! great job so far! I love the clickable cockpit controls. I dont think thats been done in a space sim before has it?

I love Privateer, my favorite space game. I started to make a Xbox Live Indie game in a Privateer style (with 2d sprites) instead of 3d, but thats not going anywhere. lol.

Anyhow, this is a really cool project with tons of potential. Keep uploading updates.

Thanks. No, it's never been done before I don't think (at least not to the extent I'm going to take it). Before I was a game developer I was a B-1B avionics/instrument troop--I have a good grasp of the pilot's workload inside the cockpit while trying to fly, let alone fight. I want to try and capture that without it being too tedious (a difficult balance I know).

TrackIR will be supported, so that would be perfect for the clickable cockpit.

The gist is that once you get through the base portion of the game, which is military service, an add-on module will allow you to stay in service and fly more dynamic missions (until a new story arc is released), or retire with a severance pay to purchase a ship you can upgrade and move into Privateer style play.

The whole thing is rather ambitious, which is why I'm going to take it in stages...

Very impressive, keep us posted.

looks very promising so far ! It seems my dream of a "DCS" in space may be evolving. Love the real time planetary orbits.

Just a few questions,

Are the Orbits all circular or can the orbits be eliptical as well?

Are you planning on gravitational forces.

Will this be space only or will planets be accesible. If planets are accessible will there be a transition or seemless.

Is this primarily a space shooter or can it be trade / exploration as well

I love what you have done so far looking forward to more info on what you wish to achieve with it.

Bogus

Thanks for the questions

1) Right now all orbits are circular, but the underlying functionality for elliptical orbits is there--just need to make use of it. However, orbits are not all on the same plane--they are tilted and off angle. And all is in real time--in some cases you could sit there for three hundred real years before distant planets completed an orbit. I'll probably add some sort of time skip between missions so you'll realize a bit of motion...

2) I do have gravitational forces from suns, planets and moons modeled, yes...

3) Initially it will be space only. I would like to add planet landings in a later add-on.

4) The initial core game play will be militaristic in nature. As I stated above, an add-on will allow you to leave military service and enter into more Elite trader/explorer-type gameplay. The underlying functionality for that type of gameplay is already in--it'd just take more work to fully realize it...

The idea of this is that I would sell the core game, and each module, for a LOW price so that by the time it was done you would spend no more than the cost of a single game. That's the plan right now, anyway. The other thing is that this is COMPLETELY modd-able--want to add your own ships, weapons, components, missions, campaigns, etc... go for it. Want to make your own Star Wars sim or whatever--go for it. So I expect folks to be able to get a lot of bang for their buck, as it were...

I would assume you'll be going for SP-only to start, with MP as an add-on or sequel down the road assuming success of the initial stages?



The Jedi Master

Yes, that's the idea. MP, while cool, is an additional level of complexity that I would tackle separately (although I am keeping it in mind as I develop). And, to be perfectly honest, I feel MP these days, in many cases but not all, is a crutch for not taking the time to develop a good Single Player experience, which includes a good story, strong AI, and engaging game play. Games like Wing Commander--although simplistic by today's standards were more like taking part in an interactive movie. I'd like to try and capture some of that again if I can...

This is looking pretty interesting Crisis

I like the direction you are going and the concepts you are trying to blend. If it has more of a simulation feel and focuses to a degree on the challenges and workload of the pilot then you have my interest.

Great idea, hoping you can see the project through, in a time frame that let's me get a good shot at playing it in the future!

Interesting background, my mom was a computer science specialist(?) at old Rockwell Int'l and worked on the B-1's avionics and weapons delivery packages (amongst other things) at the old Anaheim, CA facility.

Thanks for the comments, all

That's one of the main reasons I'm taking this in stages. If I tried to get everything done at once it'd never come out. But if I knock it out one bit at a time it's much more do-able (and if I ever had to stop working on it then it wouldn't just be sitting on my hard drive unfinished for no one to enjoy at all--at least SOME completed portion of it would be out). And, hopefully, down the road I might pick up enough interest to get some extra help, etc.

Cheers all...

I've been spending a lot of my free time w/ Evochron Mercenaries, and I'm convinced that I'm probably addicted. I also just discovered IW2 (Edge of Chaos), and I'm lookin' forward to almost every game that fits the type, so if your game delivers 1/2 of what you outline consider me a customer. You can learn a lot from the developer of Evochron, he really is devoted to his customers and I believe him when he says that the game is built around suggestions from the community.

Good luck.

This looks great! The closest thing we've had to a space 'sim', to my recollection, was Independence War. I'd love to see this come to fruition!

I'm actually a fan of Evochron--I like a lot of the ideas in there. My general feeling is that I'm a HUGE fan of this genre (at least LOOKED at [but played mostly all] just about every game of this type), and I want to do it justice and expand it for a modern audience. If someone has a good idea I'm willing to listen :p

Do you plan to use Newtonian physics?

I am. However, in my world Dark Matter is dense enough to cause a bit of drag, so the flight has a bit more atmospheric feel to it. It could be an option to turn that element on or off. I prefer the bit of drag myself though...

Here's a quick one just offa the top of my head. Sound in space. I would like the option to disable (or muffle) external sound while leaving the in-cockpit sound (electronics...) and radio communication enabled. It's a peeve of mine that hasn't been addressed in any game that I can think of.

I'm one step ahead of you I have an option in mind for this that should suite everyone's preference

This sim looks amazing. I have been searching for a real WCIII successor since I first got that game and all of it's CDs when I was a kid. The clickable cockpits, pure genius. Makes me think of I War in the fidelity of the physics, and I can surely see how MSFS has had an influence. Such as the 'tail number' the frigate reports when queried for ID. The vid was a bit dark, but so is space, so I can live with that. This is kind of the 'holy grail' for space sim junkies, flying a single seat fighter in a hard sci-fi universe with more then just, "how many IMREC missiles do I have left" running through your mind. I tell you, after the game is released and someone goes and makes a Star Wars total conversion mod for it, then I know the world will end the next day, things in life will just be too good to continue! Good luck in your venture, and I can't wait to see your next video update!!!

Sorry for the OT, but......

@cheesehawk - Funny you mentioned that, buddy of mine was telling me about living in CA as a kid, his mom worked for.....Rockwell LoL Any way, he was telling me about getting to meet then President Reagan when the B-1 was unveiled in 1980 iirc. Funny that I meet 2 people who's parents worked at the same place on the same program.

Hey, thanks for the kind words. Yeah, sorry about the darkness. Right now I'm working with a single light source, which is mostly accurate, but things like planets and moons would give off their own reflected ambient light if you were angled correctly with them and close enough. A lot of this sort of thing will emerge when I get to the point I can spend more time on the environments, which is a couple milestones away still. I'm very focused on game play code more than art right now

Fair enough, gameplay is where it's really at anyway. It would be a crying shame to finally get a space sim on the market for it to have so/so gameplay with pretty scenery, kudos to you sir!!! Just learned that StarShatter source code has been released so that should keep me happy yet wanting for a little while.

This is brilliant - I always wanted a spacesim which had flightsim aspects, ie navigation that feels real, real physics, real ship systems. I thought it was a shame all other spacesims, bar none, were so arcadish. Battlecruiser 3000AD was heading in the right direction... but, well, you know... :-)

A space sim, woohoo, count me in! It's so depressive to look back at all these years without anything decent.
Now, I know you already said that MP wouldn't be in at first and a priority, but please keep it in your plan though - I'm guessing that your audience will be the same kind of people that inhabit the forums here, many of us enjoying coop style multi player as a natural side to all of our sims. Among the group of friends I play with, I would say we would be 2 to go for the purely SP version, but a dozen if coop would be part of it - something worth keeping in mind

Oh, MP is definitely a goal. Again, I am keeping it in mind as I develop systems, but I want MP to really work WITH the SP game rather than be its own little separate entity. If that makes sense?

Here's another idea offa the top of my head. Catastrophic Destruction. Does everything have to explode into a million pieces and then disappear? There could be different levels of destruction which would leave behind wreckage and debris. It could also be functional in the form of salvage, where it would be possible to make a profit via harvesting, especially in combat zones where large battles are likely to take place. Which also brings up another peeve. Fire in Space. It would be nice if you could disable the effects associated w/ explosions w/o affecting other visuals, in an attempt to keep things realistic...

don't you dare mention his name......... I swear i will kill if you mention his name !!

;-)

Don't worry,I won't mention his name.

Did we HAVE to go there?!

right thats it !! everytime you show that picture, a kitten dies

?_? know nothing about this...

Some enlightenment, please?
Still that's a creeeeeepy picture...

The lead dev/creator of the Battlecruiser franchise is...shall we say...controversial? Either you hate him or you barely tolerate him.

I think ships should be self-illuminated. You can add one extra light source from a local star for specular highlighting, but other than that it's going to be dark up there unless you're close to a star, so they'll need their own lights to be seen.

As for sound, I've seen it rationalized in some of the books I've read as the onboard computer taking sensor data and generating sound to be what you WOULD hear if you were in an atmosphere. So it notices weapons fire, it produces a "pew pew" sound. It sees a ship destroyed, it makes a "boom." It's hardly a difficult idea to implement today, so the idea that a spaceship could have it requires no leap. It also means that it would be pilot preference...you don't like it, you can turn it off but leave your own sounds (comms, engines, weapons fire, impacts, anything that would cause sound within your ship). Seeing as many racing sims let you adjust how loud your engine is compared to opponents', wind noise, road noise, tire squeal, etc, I would imagine it's not that tough to just segregate sounds into "internal" and "external" and make the external ones turn off with a switch flip.

Myself, I enjoy the external sounds. It's not real, but it's cinematic, and I'm only enough to know reality is far less interesting than what a good story can provide.



The Jedi Master

Yeah, you can see in the vid I tested a shader with self-illuminated elements--the idea being to have running lights, illuminated insignia and formation lights to help you spot things you wouldn't otherwise see. I might even play with self-illuminated trim that outlines the shape of the ship. You're going to need help seeing things in systems with low magnitude suns, or none at all.

Sounds--it's not hard to separate internal from external. And, I have a great option idea that should suite every taste (and I'm not just talking simple volume).

Technically, I don't think anyone has tested making a fire in space, while yes there's no air if something with air in it in a vacuum explodes and there is the potential for flame ie. fuel and ignition in zero G it would probably be a bright ball of plasma and then nothing but glitter from all the pieces. Poorly done Sci-fi FX has poisoned our minds, you don't have flames in zero G at least not like we do here with gravity and atmosphere. If an explosion rips open a vessel in space I imagine there being some fire but as bright flashes like fireworks burning brightly and dissipating into the void, followed by lots of ruptures and debris, unless the anti-matter goes.. then your toast.

Count me in as very interested - For years I've lamented the fact that Tie fighter (possibly my favorite game of all time) and WC Commander style games seem to have been long forgotten. Tie Fighters engine/shield/weapon management coupled with the combat make me feel like I was actually 'operating' a fighter, rather than just shooting stuff down, so inter-dependent systems with click-able cockpits makes me rather excited!

In real life managing your workload in the cockpit effectively to free up the mental capacity to concentrate on the job at hand ie hitting a target, is half the battle and hugely satisfying!

I have no idea whether this is realistic or not, but having the ability to fairly easily script voice-acted missions would be unbelievable, and probably contribute to longevity ala Freespace 2.

ps. I have vague plans to build a home cockpit at some point - there is now a good chance it'll end up being a space fighter! Oh yeah!

Wow! This will be amazing! Definitely count me into this bunch! My two favorites Space "Sims" are "Darklight Conflict" by Rage/EA (seen some similar ships in your demo video) and "Independence War" (I-War in the U.S.A.) series by Infogrames. Wish you the best in pulling this off and resurrecting this game genre. Continue the great work, I am looking forward to it and will be glued to this thread for updates/progress reports.

Yes, in friendly space, I could see self illumination used. However, this may be nitpicking, but I imagine in space, computers and sensors will provide the tools to "see" spacecraft, especially in combat.
This may not be ideal to provide an entertaining game, but in a realistic future, when spacecraft enter hostile territory, I could see them wanting to go "dark" the same way our military aircraft of today turn off nav lights.

Then again, in a game, its no fun to shoot at a square on a HUD all the time. However, this does open up possibilities for sensor upgrades to complete the visuals for the pilot or an illuminating flare probe. And, possibilities of interesting stealth missions, trying to drift a "dark" ship (all systems shutdown) through enemy lines undetected.

All depends on the direction Crisis wants to take his creation.

Hi Crisis, and all the best with the development of your project.

I too remember fondly the days of independence war. I also like the fact thatt these will be "Naval" vessels. Personally I would much rather be in a military service flying my spaceship about, and thought it a shame that this seemed to go out of vogue . I remember Independece War was one of the few that did, then they too joined the bandwagon with its sequel where yet again you were some plucky anti hero or criminal turned freedom fighter, etc etc.

Anyways as I seem to be running off with my thoughts I better get back to what I was going to comment about re thoughts on lighting the ship. IMHO I really don't think it matters if your ship is lit up like a Christmas tree because to all intents and purposes the systems you would have on board would "see" other ships long before you could visually make them out.

Even today fighters will pick you up on radar long before the pilot has eyes on, even modern land warfare will have tank commanders and gunners looking through thermal sites to id enemy obscured by foliage, etc.

I would also imagine that any ships "out of the cockpit" view would be heavily augmented by computer generated symbology, so a HUD displaying a friendly would have a green silhouette or brackets for example, enemy would have red and neutrals blue with unknowns orange or something.

Even if you argue that having a lit ship would show a point of light moving about, again I would think that the advanced radar/ scanner you would have, would be "matching and tagging" these long before your mark 1 eyeball had chance to make them out.

Any way good luck with it, whatever you do!!!!

The difference is in space, with the vast distances involved, the level of self-illumination possible probably wouldn't make you visible more than a thousand miles or so, by which time other sensors would certainly see you. So while "silent running" might make you a bit less visible, it's probably negligible.



The Jedi Master

First, I can't tell you all how encouraged I am by the responses here (especially considering the placeholder art and crappy commentary on the WIP vid ). All the kind words and ideas are REALLY appreciated--thanks

I've also had a couple offers for volunteer help, which is just amazing. At the moment I am not concerned at all about art (other than brainstorming about looks, style and presentation). However, while I'm an artist by profession (Lead Environment Artist for ISI [rFactor2]-and no, this is NOT an ISI product in any way) I KNOW there will be more art to do than one person can handle (but I'll do it anyway ). So when the time comes I'll definitely be considering help. However, I tell you up front that I can NOT offer anyone one dime right now as I have nothing for development. ISI is my day job and supports my family. All I really have right now is as much time as I can find in the evening and a family who is very supportive...

I have no idea how Rogue Space will perform financially, so even a "percentage of sales" could amount to near $0.00. I just wouldn't want anyone working under false pretenses. That said, the voluntary offers of help have humbled me

I'm happy to say that one area I was REALLY concerned about is no longer an issue. For a truly cinematic-like experience (remember, this isn't JUST about "DCS in space" [although an excellent goal on its own], but also an effort to try and present a compelling story to the player, ala Wing Commander for the modern simmer) you HAVE to have great sound and music. So, I'm thrilled to say that Gopher (aka Kevin Chow) has most graciously offered his services. You can have a listen to some of his work here: http://soundcloud.com/de_gopher/tracks?page=1

He's an amazing musician and no doubt will give Rogue Space depth and sole well beyond my wildest dreams. If even half the ideas we have come to fruition RS will be quite the auditory experience...

From a gameplay standpoint, I'm currently working on some preliminary damage modeling, and I have to say what I have working already just floors me. It should be quite a challenge when you come on the receiving end of enemy fire.

Cheers

Looks great! X-Wing and Tie Fighter were two of my favorite sims. I also played some Wing Commander games that were ported onto Super Nintendo.

One thing I wish I could always do while playing X-Wing was proper takeoff. Start inside the ship, flick all the switches on and take off, leave the ship and then go on my mission. Will something like this be possible?

And my other wish which I think was already asked is to from a planet take off and keep going up and eventually leave the planet and go into space and vice versa. I always wanted a space sim that did that.

I'm really looking forward to this keep up the great work and keep us posted on updates!

Crisis,

Since we are in the "dream" (a.k.a. development) stage of your space sim/game is it possible for you to use, integrate or simulate what is done with SpaceEngine (http://en.spaceengine.org/)? I know that this may be a far of request but if done your game will excel where others have failed to reach. Also, although a bit premature to ask, what DRM will you think of using if any? I am personally against draconian DRM but I do understand your right to secure your work. Keep up the great work!

Here is a video of what SpaceEngine is capable:

I LOVE what they're doing in SpaceEngine. The only MAJOR feature it currently does that I don't is planetfalls. Again, while a cool feature and something I want to add later, it is not a requirement for the core game as it's planned now. What I CAN do now is make my star systems look good. The milestone after the one I'm currently working on is set aside for stellar art, so hopefully in a couple months I'll have something much prettier to look at

DRM--I'm not a huge fan myself. I have a couple options but I haven't really decided how to approach it yet. I'm open to suggestions at this point--willing to hear different ideas. What jumps to the top of the list is Steam (or a similar system) simply because of the audience it reaches. But again, I'm not set on anything right now. I have a while to think about it still

Well, frankly there are no real "cheap" DRM options. That's why a lot of the indie devs simply use none. I don't know what the one rFactor uses costs, but it's not terribly bad. Same with the one ED uses for DCS.
Of course Steam I believe takes 40% of your gross sales (don't quote me, I've only heard it second-hand), so if you go that route hopefully it will more than double your sales to make it worthwhile.



The Jedi Master

Yeah, for an indie dev Steam isn't the most financially feasible solution for sure--the saving grace is the shear number of Steam users you have access to. But there's no guarantee you'll reach enough of them. Going without is community-friendly but is just as risky financially if you want to continue development on a full time basis. Lots of pro's and con's all the way around... We'll figure it out

Count me in as another very interested in this.

I've always wanted a space combat technical sim. Also a fan of I-War as others have noted.

For me, plus points would be...
full technical systems. I.e. full startup sequence like in DCS, proper navigation functionality, proper systems management and monitoring.

I note you are supporting TrackIR, which is great. Haven't checked the video yet but a static hud in addition to a simulated helmet mounted display would be great, i.e. the hmd moves with you trackir view for tracking, targetting etc.

Would be great if the engine correctly supports defineable field of view and resolution. E.g. for Eyefinity style mutli-screen views.

User definable viewports would also be great with support for multiple display outputs like in FSX so that screens could be dedicated to system displays etc. (for pit builders).

Multi input support please. If I have rudder pedals, throttles, sticks and other devices available, please allow them to be used as desired and fully configurable by me, again like FSX.

Cheers! good luck!

I always wonder why of all the space games I played, I was only allowed to approach the landing/docking spot before the game took over the controls. Can you make us land/dock our spaceships manually in your new game?

YES! Me too! I always didn't like that.

I was the nerd when playing X-Wing or Tie Fighter I wanted to actually program the jumps to lightspeed, start up the engines and take off out of Home One in my X-Wing, or land on a space station or planet after coming down through the atmosphere.

If any of this will be possible in your new sim sign me up I'll buy it

Yes, you'll be able to take-off and land your ship. The idea is to be able to walk up to your fighter, get in, start the engines and other systems, take off and do your mission, return and land and then walk to your debriefing, etc.

I'm about two weeks away from finishing up milestone 5, and then I'll put out a new video. I just got the basic missile system working, we now have the sound engine integrated (irrKlang) and Kevin is doing a lot of nice preliminary sounds, shields now functionally work on fighters, Lead-Computed sighting is in with basic HUD symbology--LOTS of stuff going in right now.

I'll make a fresh post here when the new WIP video is up. By that time I should also have some hosted webspace and perhaps a basic forum working as well.

Also, TrackIR WILL be supported. All the arrangements have been made with NaturalPoint--I just need to get the system integrated as soon as time allows...

LOTS of cool stuff going on. Rogue Space has taken on a life of it's own, and I'm kind of rushing around to keep up The interest and support has really surprised me, and I think that's a positive sign not only for RS, but for the genre in general....

Really? Wow, that's cool! Can't wait to see the day this sim hits the market. Thank you, Crisis. Take your time, we know how hard is it to develop a sim.

If it lets you command capital ships then I will definitely buy it when it comes out.

The whole fighter jets in space thing does not fly so well with me... it is not very realistic except to shuttle people to and from larger ships.

OMG Its HIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

I'm in.

Hello Crisis,

Please make an option for those "few" whom do not wish to use Steam; something like registering online to get an authenticated serial number or certificate to play the game. I am really looking forward to your great work, keep it up!