I don't share your views. In particular after reading a couple of books from the era. In "Air combat at 20 feet" by Garrett Middlebrook (I am reading just now), the author repeatedly states they never exceeded 90% power in their B-25's except in the emergency where they needed the extra power. But even that was limited and led to redlining the RPM's and overheating the cylinders. And the new 4.11 B-25 simulates this very nicely.

For me, 4.11 leaped many light years ahead of any currently moded version. Yes, CEM will have to be adjusted / fine tuned in the following patches, but the game just got so much closer to the CloD's CEM which in comparison works.

True, the sounds are still crap. But mods will catch up pretty soon. By looking at the AI and numerous MP features, I can't even think of going back to the previous game version.


For the record, they messed up with the bomb fuses in 4.10 but made them perfect in 4.11. I will agree with that though.

Ok but what does the new DT patch do about planes that already had savage problems with overheating ( the FM-2 come to mind ). A few planes like the FM-2 overheated in older patches so easily that flying offline campaigns in them usually had me turning off the overheat totally in the difficulty menu when I started the campaign!! Most planes were manageable but some like the FM-2 were terrible. Does the patch address these planes or make them even worse? I hope DT realizes that not all planes had the same overheat model, some were a bit much in my mind and I worry that those will be really bad now. Have not tried everything yet.

I did not find that the AI ace setting much more challenging than the old AI in several tests I did. The ace AI acted differently but were not much more difficult to handle. My first test was four CW-21s ( me and AI buddies ) set on ace against four early Zeroes set on ace. I set the mission on scramble. I noticed that the enemy AI acted differently in that they stayed up at high altitude and made us climb to them and attacked us by diving but only when we were almost to their altitude. In the past they would have come down to near ground level and attacked us down low. But like the old days, my AI buddies ended up getting shot down while I had to shoot down most of the enemy. I usually shot down about three of the zeroes on average in about five tests. Another scenario I did about 5 times was four P-51Cs with four enemy Bf-109G6 lates. I found this more challenging at first but soon got results about the same as older patches through the years. I guess I had to re-acquaint myself with the P-51 style of fighting. But overall I found the AI only marginally more challenging. Not enough to write home about really. Just a hair improved but at least slightly noticeable.

Rather than listen to debates about who has the right historical aviation books, I am attempting to set up a phone interview with a surviving Tuskegee Airman and a German FW 190 D9 or A9 pilot. Work in progess.

After more testing, overall I like the patch, but for online combat, this is a big gift to the already gifted UFO aircraft, like the 185 M-71, the Spit 25lbs, and to a slightly lesser extent the La7.

Subjectively, (I will look at their source code later to find out the exact objective time limits) on a scale of one being never overheat to ten being overheating within ten seconds or so at radiator set to 4, and starting the first combat pass with boost fully on (110% power), you have:

Spit 25lbs - 1 - engine does not overheat much
185 M-71 - 1 or 2, ... dido
La7 - about 2.5 or 3, some overheat but only after maybe five minutes
P39 Q10 or P63 about 6 or 7, will overheat after about maybe 90 seconds
FW Dora D9 1945 - about 8, overheats within one minute, and damage comes soon after
P51 D-NT - about 9, overheat after 20 to 40 seconds, damage quickly results if not scaled back in pitch
TA-152 H1 - about 10, the worst of the group and totally f#%^#! by TD. Overheats in maybe 20 seconds, engine will burn out down low in under one min. Definitely not the plane Kurt Tank designed.

What this means subjectively for online combat is that the P51 pilot who got maybe four kills an hour, will now get one, and this is due to needing to exit the combat area to continually cool the engine. You now have to spend so much more time now out of the fight riding around at 60 percent pitch and 60 or 70 percent power. This means most of the former BnZ aircraft are essentially borked to a medium or large degree. You get one or maybe two passes and if you dont score hits, you must, ... repeat must exit the field or your engine will quickly go, while your spit 25lbs opponent can simply catch you on boost since their engine takes so much longer to overheat. The overheat issue is so bad that even a master P51 vet with years in IL2 can be defeated by a much less dangerous plane that has longer engine overheat times. You simply wait em out till their engine goes bad, and then they have either burned it up or they cannot zoom away at 560 kph and you catch em and take em out. To see this clearly, try the F4U-D 1944 vs the P51 D-NT 1944 in both 4.10.1 and 4.11. In ole 4.10.1 they were very closely matched and a master P51 pilot could eventually turn the tables on the corsair. Now, the corsair pilot does not need to even fly that well, you just wait out the P51 until the engine goes and catch em in most cases.

Dont believe me, try it yourself.

And thanks to my friend 357th_Ulti (a P51 master) for helping test this under full real conditions.

Nice. Post it up over at the banana forum so TD can see it.

Thanks Dave. I did and your right, their full of bananas over there

The critical difference in 4.11 is not level flight speed , it is time to engine overheat while doing an apex climb.

This is the way Boom and Zoom fighters were designed to work. Period. This is the method of the P51, FW, TA, Tempy, etc.... fully 40% of the planes in the game were designed for. You fly it in level flight and turn horizontally, you usually die. They are designed for the vertical fight, to boom down and zoom right back up using apex climbs that get close to stall speed often when they top out.

They dive and then zoom climb back up (say 2000m in one go from base attack back up close to stalling out).

I can faithfully replicate, putting the TA 152 into a dive with 4.11 and then climb to stall speed (it stalls at about 1870m of climb from whatever altitude you started the climb from, and at about 200 kph), by which time the engine is overheating, IN ONE PASS. If I keep this up, the engine is fried by pass 3 or 4. This is directly contrary to all the historical evidence of the late FWs and TAs which where specifically designed for zooming up to the clouds.

THIS STALL CLIMB HEATING IS THE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE OF 4.11 versus 4.10.1. In the older patch, I could get three to five apex climbs before overheat (say roughly 2 to 5 min). Now, in 4.11, I must drop pitch, exit and circle around cooling the engine. That makes my TA or FW or P51 damn near worthless. Why ? Cause I must circle to continually cool the engine and after one steep climb I am back in overheat territory. So I am now left with level flight turning combat and everyone knows how bad the P51 or TA sucks at that against a Spit 25lbs or La7.

As to the level flight data provided by others, still checking. I can see though that the TA has had a significant reduction in abilities (and about 30 kph in level flight speed) from 4.10.1 to 4.11.

Still testing.....

I do not appreciate more gifts being handed to the already underwhelming open pit Spit 25lbs/185/La7 princesses.

You pretentious, obnoxious little blowhard.

So you roll in here insulting both the devolopers AND other people who deign to use a different aircraft than your particular favourite and then you expect us to bow down with respect and pay heed to your frankly inaccurate and baseless accusations?

I'm not even gonna bother arguing with such a narrow minded, bigoted little brat such as you. You clearly have made up your mind and won't won't listen or consider any counter argument. You've already proved your mettle - or more accurately your lack therof - with your arrogant and obnoxiously presented opinions. And thats all they are, btw, opinions; I have not seen one unequivocal fact, piece of data or statistic to back up your offensive rant. Maybe, just maybe you'd have had a chance of a fair hearing here or at 1C if you'd come in with some solid data but in this manner, no specs, just your opinions and with your pissy attitude? I don't think so chum.

Right now, your a just a bag of hot air and you ain't making many friends round here. I for one will be glad to see the back of you.

Woah, stick in the butt there Fenrir ? Let me guess, you fly the spit 25lbs ? Online ?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Go to any online 4.11 server. Take TA-152 H1. Climb to 1000m and get full speed up to 530 kph after a few minutes. Now turn on boost, take a small dive to pick up speed, and climb up steeply using 110% power (as if escaping a spit 25lbs on your tail). By the top of your climb (at about 1870m above where you started your climb if you trim it right) as you approach a stall, your engine will be in overheat.

In one pass.

Continue for just a few more passes and bang, engine fried. Now try your plane, Spit 25lbs. You can ride around doing apex climbs for several minutes before engine starts knocking.

Now repeat on any 4.10.1 server. Watch the big difference in the TA 152 H1 (or FWs or P51s).

I agree about the P-51, it has been a bit neutered because you can't fight on anything less than 95% power. It takes forever to cool down unless you cut way, way back on power. And that is dangerous against human or AI planes, period.

One thing that needs looked at is the fact that, like in real life, these virtual engines have a power band that varies from plane to plane. Look at the KI-27, which most people don't fly much. It has a very wide power band that means it can fly nearly as fast in level flight at 75% as it can at 95 or 100%!! Now the P-51 on the other hand, needs a lot of speed to make a good instantaneous high speed turn. Basically it has no low speed turn or even much of a medium speed turn. Granted, it's never been a turn fighter online but you ( in the past ) have been able to make due with it as a turn fighter offline against 109s or 190s as long as it's kept pretty fast. But it has a narrow power band whereby it needs almost always full power or near full power to get much speed and therefore be able to turn at all. But since it's now not able to run at constant full or near-full power, it's a floundering, stall happy piece of pooh. Offline against AI it's very hard to leave any fight against German fighters in the P-51, so with a floundering pile of pooh it becomes a difficult task to survive in the thing ( P-51 ).

Now another question arises and it becomes strikingly obvious now. Do these planes all ( or even some of them ) have a historical power band? Now that we have super easy to overheat planes this needs to be looked at by TD. Because it makes a helluva difference now that I have had time to test and experiment!! But whether anyone else ever noticed or not, there are variations in this game when it comes to the power bands, some planes just need a lot of manifold pressure to be worth a you-know-what.

If he flies a P-51 or some other planes and you're in your prissy little Spit, then you will indeed see the back of him!! And easily I might add....

The fact that this patch is a game changer to some planes and not to others cannot be denied ( except to the people it favors like you because it doesn't affect your fave plane ). Please read my post above about engine power bands. It's obviously made it easier for you in the artificial skies or else why would you be so happy about things? Go for four ace P-51s against four mid to late war AI ace 109s in QMB and then chime back in her later. Maybe we are actually testing out this patch with multiple planes and you're not?

P.S.- He seems to have a few more friends in here than you do......BTW!!

If you can defeat me in a fair same altitude duel, you are either Hartmann's ghost or you have a ganja problem that needs treatment.

The two would be opposites, Hartmann would be clearheaded and alert, the other, well....

The word "think" should be in there.

If you "Think" you can defeat me in a fair same altitude duel, you are either Hartmann's ghost or you have a ganja problem that needs treatment.

About your concerns, adapt. 4.12 will be along shortly, and I'm sure there will changes made that others don't like. And maybe you'll get your UberPlane back, unless it's not a historical representation of the way things were. TD has put a lot of hard work into what they have done, and one plane, or two, is not what this game is about. Nor has anyone claimed that this game perfect.

just my opinion.

One of your targets.