Is it just me or is this aircraft just a B*TCH to fly? I am so pissed because I used to be a rotorhead back in EECH and Gunship! days and prided myself in being able to fly 50 feet AGL at 90 KIAS. This abomination will do that, but getting it to do anything else afterwards --- kaboom!

Also, is it just me or does this helo seem to be working with stone-age weapons? ie, a TV camera with no IR capability whatsoever... a laser-guided LOS missile with pathetic range... a big-ass gun that can only swivel so far...

I am not looking for a flame war, just venting/ranting. I will still fly this anyway for lack of anything better, plus I see what good pilots can do with the Shark, but I'll be damned if I am wrong with my above sentiments.

It can be a #%&*$# to fly if you mishandle/misunderstand the Autopilot-stabilisation system. Once you truly understand how that works, it is a dream to fly, and you can throw it around the sky with abandon.

As for the weapons - older than the stone age.

Nate

It does require a lot of attention and concentration. Moreso than about any other simulated aircraft I've flown. I think of it this way though: The real guys that fly these things make it a full time job. They study it, study it, study it. They probably fly a simulator a lot, and spend time in the real cockpit. They are probably comfortable enough that they can sit blindfolded and find every switch from memory. That is their job.. Their lives depend on it. For us, it is a part-time hobby at best..so we aren't afforded the luxury of dedicating our lives to it. But DCS modeled it so completely that it requires a true commitment to learn it and fly it well. Let alone fight it well.

I'm a firm believer in the two-pilot (or pilot/CPG) system. In the Ka-50 it is very easy to get task saturated, and a lot of stuff does require heads down action. The environment it operates in (low altitude, sometimes fast) is just so unforgiving of lack of attention or distraction. The two-pilot crew of the Apache has some distinct advantages (you fly, I'll fight, and we'll talk about it the whole time).

That's why I'd love to see an Apache from DCS..with front/back seat connectivity. I think it would be really cool to fly like we did way back with F-15 Strike Eagle III (front seat/back seat).

This will be an interesting discussion..



BeachAV8R

Thanks for confirming that on weapons Nate. I would love to go online with you sometime and you can demo for me how "you can throw it around the sky with abandon" and probably teach me a thing or two.




So do A10 pilots but that is so much easier to fly and you spend your time learning how to FIGHT in it. The Ka-50 is so difficult to FLY, I don't even know why they bother.




If DCS or anyone comes out with a proper Apache sim, I will commit myself to learning to operate both seats. That will be kick-ass multiplayer -- I don't care if there is no SP in the game. Then I hope the devs of that game will include some Ka-50s so I can exact vengeance on the airframe I've come to love to loathe.

I've got about 20hrs in BS2 and it's getting alot easier. Like Nate said getting a handle on the autopilot/stabilization system makes flying alot it alot better. I think I'm trimming alot more then when I started. I usually fly around using the autopilot going to f/d mode if I need to do any serious manuevering or NOE. I'm really enjoying the challenge of learning this sim, but if they come out with the F15E or even better F105G or F4E with a real backseater option I'd have to go back to the fast jets. I used to have some fun trying to dogfight in a A20 with a buddy in the gunners seat in Aces High.

I just did the Shooting Range mission. Damn aircraft won't even lift UP into the sky properly, it'll either pitch back or slide sideways. And whoever says this thing should do a rolling takeoff is forgetting something very important about helicopters -- they are H E L I C O P T E R S... they should be able to take off and land V E R T I C A L L Y.

Got to the mission area alright, all AP channels on and FD on. Upon approaching my "spot," FD off, coast to a stop without gaining too much altitude, and establish Hover Hold. Damn thing can't even hover properly. I've only twice achieved zero-slip hovers... and if you're slipping and sliding while hovering, you're not hovering. You're slipping and sliding. Stupid helo.

Okay, so heads down, work the Shkval and alternate between the twirly-twirly Vikhrs (the guidance system alone proves that some drunk Russian engineers thought this up after a party) and the frikkin' awesome "thum thum thum thum" of the gun. I'm drifting too close to the target site so I head back out... coast to a stop, hard left rudder to face the right way again.... and enter some sort of spin and kaboom! Plant myself into Georgian soil. Note that I did not die because I was fired upon, I did not die because I had system damage, I did not die because I was too busy heads down, I did not die because I was talking while flying, I did not die because I was texting while flying. I died because the damn thing went crazy at 40 meters AGL and decided to land.

Are any of the Ka-50 designers still alive? Or have the pilot's wives hunted them down to the last man?



*****************

For something more constructive here, has anyone managed to pull out the Shkval and the ABRIS screens and put them on a second monitor? Or better yet, do Helios on this b*tch and put the entire front console on a 24-inch monitor on a dual-screen display?

Lol - good read.

I like the twirly whirly vihkers.

Helicopters require a lot of inputs..that is just the nature of the beast. Taking off from the pad you have to get a little light on the "skids" and feel what the default trim is going to do. Wind will affect where the rotor disc needs to be for a level takeoff. I trim quite frequently. I also like to use the ROUTE mode between waypoints and I prefer to fly at 200KPH or so to avoid any catastrophic rotor meshing or anything.

I've not run into any situations (yet) where I couldn't takeoff or land vertically with BS2. I have had difficulty maintaining a hover at extremely high mountain passes. Most helicopters are capable of making "running" takeoffs when they can't hover. Even Hueys in Vietnam used to scrape along the runway sometimes to get enough translational lift to transition to a climb. (If you are struggling with Black Shark - you need to read "Chickenhawk" so that you have a full appreciation of how difficult helicopters can be to fly - and how unique they are in terms of how they fly..)

Regarding auto hover. I usually engage it when I'm at 10kph or less. Once I engage it, I then manually input a corrective input and retrim. The helo will not ever maintain a perfect hover over the engaged position (at least I've never found that to be the case). I was spoiled by both LB2 and EECH - they maintain positional hovers quite easily.

Comparing the workload of the A-10 (a very stable platform) to a helo (an unstable platform) is problematic. I think BS2 closely replicates the flying workload that is inherent to helo operations. I can always tell when I've been flying BS2..my shoulders ache from the tension of having to constantly be on the controls.

Good luck!

BeachAV8R

This is something I need to do too. I think it would be very cool..

Beach, I do know about the AP function of the helo for going from A-B, but I am doing this to learn how to control the aircraft. It's just too... fiddly and unforgiving. And crazy.

Regarding hover, I've done a perfectly-stable hover in that mission twice before. And I do mean rock-solid hover, not an inch of drift. If only I can figure out how the hell that happened and replicate it consistently. And no, I'm not one of those guys that hit Auto-Hover while doing 100KPH, my hover hold is engaged at 5KPH on a level aircraft.

I am told this poor-excuse-of-an-aircraft is even worse with wind. Duh!! Didn't the designers know wind exists? AAAARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I know the phrase about "helos are so ugly the earth repels them" is quite true. Except for the Longbow.

Yes. A good thread to start with:

http://www.scsimulations.com/showthread.php?1395-Gadroc-s-Black-Shark-Profile-v2

You have to have it pretty well trimmed for hover before it will auto hover. I get it to less than 4kph drift b4 I engage it. I've never flown any of the other virtual rotary wings, but maybe you're approaching it wrong. It's not like them. It's more like a John Deere tractor(or the Euro equivalent) that flies and shoots missles. This thing is a riot to fly. I think I'd get bored with the other copters your describing.

It's gonna take time ice and a lot of practice but you'll get there mate, as for the hover well I find the trick is to visualise the place you need to hover and slow right down and approach the place below 50kph all the while slowing down nose up and trimming all the while. I've got it down ok I think now and I can hold a hover without auto hover, mind you have to be super gentle on the cyclic. As for the weapons? I love them, especially the vikhers when you can have two missiles in the air and switch targets quickly after the first one is destroyed and then take the second out. The gun to be fair ain't all that accurate because i find it has too much spread over distance, it's more like a shot gun at range lol and the rockets? Well all I'll say there is good luck!

One big thing to remember about the hover feature is that it is not an "auto hover," is a "hover hold." If your helo is not close to a hover state when you engage the hover hold function, well, you won't hover very well.

trim trim trim, and trim some more!
You get use to it after a while.... if you fly RC helicopters you will know that even they like to come up and at you on take off! and thats with a balanced one!

They're not forgetting anything, it's you who doesn't know something.
Rolling T/O's are done for procedure and safety, same with landings. You can't easily auto-rotate to safety without speed.



Why? ... turn it off. This helo is flown with FD off.



Shoddy piloting skills



Actually they were pretty smart. This made the missiles cheaper, and single-axis control is even used today on the SeaRAM ... which is a pretty modern missile used to shoot down aircraft and anti-ship missiles.



You died because of shoddy piloting skills

But granted, there are interactions between your controls and the game that aren't (and can't be made) relistic, which in your case here is probably the following:

You hit the rudder, then you trimmed while holding the rudder down, thus freezing the rudder in that position.

Since there's no force-feedback rudders, you have to mind your trim unfortunately, which is extra work that you won't experience in the real deal.

*/Must resist urge to comment/*

.........

Nate

I agree with Greyghost on the fd auto pilot, I never use it not even for rocket attacks

Realistic tactics aside, turning the FD off is a great way to start learning how to fly the Black Shark. Until you intuitively understand the Trimmer and the wonky flight dynamics of a coaxial helicotper, you will always fight the autopilot.

• Turn FD ON. (For you snobby purists out there, this is suggested as a training method.)
• Fly basic maneuvers (transition to/from hover, straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs, constant air speed descents, etc.). No point in trying to learn a funnel if you can't control a level turn within ±10 m altitude and ±15 kmph airspeed.
• Learn to trim properly. Although the pilot can maintain desired attitude being more than 20% out of trim, the autopilot can't. Learn to trim as close to hands off as you can for all flight regimes and you'll better understand what the autopilot needs to have to maintain control.

The vast majority (e.g., all) of the complaints I hear about the Ka-50 autopilot and flight dynamics stem from an incomplete understanding of the complex flight dynamics, Trimmer, and autopilot interactions. A pilot that can't demonstrate trimmed flight with the Flight Director on doesn't understand this.

[edit: the rationale for having the gall to suggest that new pilots start their self-training with the Flight Director ON is that in this mode the only autopilot contributions to control inputs are stability augmentation. The autopilot's default attitude hold inputs will confuse a new pilot who can't distinguish between improper trim and unexpected commanded attitude changes. Once they know what a trimmed configuration feels like they are better equipped to deal with the additional autopilot inputs.]

Shameless plug, but here is one set of articles to start coming up to speed on flying the Ka-50.

Coaxial helicopter dynamics: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_427a.html
Trimming the Black Shark: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_428a.html
The Ka-50 Autopilot: http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_429a.html

Thanks for the correction on auto-hover vs hover hold, Luke. I meant one even though I said the other; I know I need to be as "neutral" as possible before engaging it for it to work properly... but then if I can establish a proper hover myself, then why the need for it? Lol!

Donk, I guess I got spoiled by the American Hellfire missile and dealing with the Vikhr seems to be a step backwards. I have roughly learned how to trim as well ---- establish desired flight attitude, trim, fine tune, trim. Change something? Trim. A butterfly flaps its wings in Tibet? Trim. Blink? Trim. Any other questions? Trim. Realize how the aircraft sucks? Trim. And then trim again. And again.

I do love the gun for the simple awesomeness of the sound it makes, and the fact that one burst can take out most vehicles. And from such a distance away too. Anyone know the max range of the gun? And can it take out armor? I would bet not, so my beloved A10C still wins!! HAHA!!

Einstein, are you saying FD off will make me a better pilot? I do know FD "puts me in control" and dampens the autopilot forces so that I am more in charge of the helicopter and that is how I like to fly it. I've always flown my aircraft from A to B, even in Falcon with its fancy-schmancy pointy-nose I-can-take-you-anywhere autopilot. I'm not a button pusher, I'm a pilot who knows how to fight in his aircraft. So I like to "pilot" my aircraft as much as possible. But seeing as how this beast SUXS so much with FD on, I will try a few flights with FD off. It's a good thing I just have to pay for this game once, rather than paying on a "per helicopter" basis. Now on to reading your shamelessly plugged threads...

Oh, and GrayGhost, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Yeah, I suck. That's a given. Next time please post something that will actually help, either by telling me how to improve, or at least supporting me in my rant. I suck, you're great and smart. And no, I did not engage AP at anytime there so did not "freeze" my rudder in one position. I know and I'm 100% sure because I have the CTRL+Enter "red box with my control inputs displayed" and a stuck rudder was the first thing I checked.

+1 for the Trimming and AP articles. These are brilliant, Einstein (Hmm, appropriate name, evidently), and finally got my brain around how to trim and fly this a/c. Thank you for producing these.

Thanks to a better understanding and implementation of the AP and trim, I flew the 1st deployment mission (bs2) last night and had an absolute blast! Even though it is a simple FAM flight, I was pleasantly surprised at how satisfying and immersive this sim can be.

I've got a long way to go on combat systems, but at least I'm no longer fighting the thing and ending up as a smoking crater.

T

Flying with the FD off will help you LEARN to become a better pilot. The discussion on whether or not to fly with FD off or on gets almost as vicious as the discussion on whether to hold the trimmer button down constantly during maneuvers or the "click to trim" method - I'll let you figure out what works best for you.

BTW, the FD doesn't dampen AP forces - it completely eliminates autopilot control feedback. All that's left are the stabilization filters. Flying without these is highly discouraged as the aircraft becomes quite unstable and even dangerous to land. All's discussed in the shameless plugs above.

@Kozmo514, thanks for the compliments! I wrote them after struggling with the flight model and autopilot dynamics myself, so it's encouraging to hear when it helps other pilots come through the same learning curves.

Indeed. The Deployment campaign has been great fun (so far) for me.

I'm gonna re-read Einstein's articles again tonight..

Yes ice the vikhrs do seem a step backwards but when you think about it they work almost the same as a laser hellfire that the army air corp use out in Afghanistan today, they have to paint the target and the hellfire rides the beam to the target spot. Also the two missiles and two targets method at the same time is used by british apaches, in the book apache by Ed Macy he goes into some detail how he first managed to do this and the sim is pretty close to how he describes it, plus it's well cool when it works right lol

Thanks for the clarification Einstein. I will be trying your suggestion then. Still reading up on the articles, great read!

Donk, I will have to try that sometime. I can ripple IAMs and Mavericks in DCS A10, would be fun to ripple Vikhrs too. How many seconds after you launch the first one before you launch the second?

New goal now is to make this b*tch of an aircraft MY b*tch!

To be honest ice it's not that hard to do, but you need to have the two targets within close proximity so you can slew over to the next quickly, I normally wait a few seconds but it would depend on range, the trick is to get the laser on target but don't lock the target to the cursor.

Well, Vikhrs and laser Hellfires are both dependent on lasers, but they're not the same. Hellfire have seekers like LGBs that find the refelected laser energy and home in on it. Vikhrs actually ride a beam from the helo to the target, the laser is just the point the beam is sending it to if that makes sense. Put another way, the Hellfire follows its nose, the Vikhr is commanded from its tail. It's more like a laser-guided TOW.

As for flying, there's no doubt the thing's a handful. When it comes to flying and fighting, well, the Russians agree with you! The Ka-50 was bought in small numbers only because it was determined to be too much for the average pilot. Instead they're going with a mix of dual-seat Ka-52s and Mi-28s, where the pilot can fly and the gunner can use the weapons and other systems.

I admit it took me a long time to realize the reason the helo didn't fly like I thought it should were the stabilization channels in pitch, roll, and yaw. I couldn't understand why when I tried to turn from N to W the thing kept wanting to fly N! It was like ridiing an unruly horse! Now I just disable the yaw when I'm making turns so the thing will accept which way I actually want to go. I don't turn FD on except once in a blue moon.



The Jedi Master

Big deal. All you need is practice



Interesting - this is usually the symptom of a stuck rudder, so ... what else could have been happening? (I don't recall if the display shows you where the rudder has been trimmed to - generally I'll try to correct a spin with opposite rudder right away and it works. If you completely lost control, it would be interesting to find out why)

The Hellfire does not fly straight at the target, unlike Vikhr and TOW, which follow a straight line from launch platform to the target. The Hellfire will take an upward arc at first then dive down onto the target.

I did say almost lol, I only meant it in the way that the laser has to paint the target, I'm aware of the the flight profile of the hellfire and that it's a nose seeker. I wasn't sure if ice was spoiled by the radar guided variant in eech or longbow lol

The best reason i can give is that you are in a sophisticated attack aircraft (albeit not the most modern). There are a lot of switches and head down operations to be done and being able to engage autohover effortlessly enables you to quickly get heads down to attack.

There is a slight misconception that you need to be almost in the hover to get a good autohover. That is incorrect, you need to be trimmed close to the hover to get a stable autohover as the autopilot used a percentage of control to achieve its target. So if you are trimmed outside of this, the autopilot does not have the amount of control input needed to put itself into a stable autohover.

You can easily fly at well over 100 klm/h and hit the autohover and come perfectly to a hover. (provided you are already trimmed for hover flight). So its not the speed, its purely the trim which will dictate a good autohover or not.

I am not recommending this. But quite a few people i flew with (even i did it for a while) would after take off, trim for the hover and then fly the chopper in forward flight out of trim (aircraft trimmed for the hover). Ok it made forward flight strange as there was always an offset cyclic, but made coming to a hover very easy, safe and effective to enable quick deployment of weapons.




For me, to reliably hit a target would max 3.5 klms. I have not stringently tested this, but find i think i find more accuracy when shooting at long range with gun set to low rounds per minute. Though i could be wrong. Anyone confirm this?

Basically, any distance over 3 klms and the bullet spread widens quickly. Can get kills at 4 klms but you will need to set off a few rounds to counter for adverse dispersal.



Horses for courses. You may want to try this (its what i do). Fly with the autopliot channels engaged except YAW. this will give you stability in pitch and roll but leave yaw to yourself.

If you are using autohover and turn to taget, then you will need yaw engaged. So i just disengage yaw when in forward flight and re-engage when i wish to autohover or use turn to target. I find i get better precision out of flying that way. But that is me.




Well the only tips (if you could call them that) are to keep control inputs as minimalistic as possible. This bird needs a light touch. But just practice and keep at it, it does get better, once the old grey matter figures out what you want and sends it to your fingers / toes (took a while for me)


[EDIT]
Just remember that the trimmer has a different function with autohover engaged.

For me, to reliably hit a target would max 3.5 klms. I have not stringently tested this, but find i think i find more accuracy when shooting at long range with gun set to low rounds per minute. Though i could be wrong. Anyone confirm this?


Yeah that's what I tend to do, I guess the recoil of the gun is lower when less rounds are fired which in turn makes for a tighter grouping of rounds, I tend to use the low setting 90% of the time and only use the high setting at snap shots.

What I do struggle with though is taking enemy choppers out, has anybody got any tips? Because the apaches keep killing me with hellfires

well to be honest, when it comes to an enemy helo (actually for me the same applies to any flying threat), if i think they have detected me first the only thing i will do is go defensive and bug out.

For me its better to avoid than try to duke it out.

"As for flying, there's no doubt the thing's a handful. When it comes to flying and fighting, well, the Russians agree with you!"

Actual Ka-50 pilots say that in Ka-50, weapon systems are so easy to use that there is no problem. If you crash in this sim it is only because of poor flying skills.

With longer range on their missles, more power in their warheads, and the ability to lock you up in seconds, I find fighting Apaches a real suicide run. I've managed to sneak up on them before and take them out with a combination of a pair of ripple Vikhrs and cannon fire without them getting a shot off first, but usually my first indication there's an Apache in the area is a Hellfire coming at me!

The worst part is getting locked on to it is tough, getting a Vikhr launched is tough, and then keeping it in front of you so it tracks is tough...and then 1 Vikhr will usually fail to do much damage.



The Jedi Master

Yes, and yet they still prefer the two-man approach. The Ka-50 is fine as long as the battlefield isn't task-saturating you ... it isn't a front-line heli.

In addition, real pilots get loads of training to make things fairly natural for them, so in most cases piloting is 'free' and they can concentrate on employing weapons and tactics ... but it isn't always like this, and this is why the 2-man heli is the front-line heli, and the Ka-50 is on its way to extinction.

Okay Grayghost, tell ED we need that two seat heli for DCS. Apache and Hind.

No need, they are well aware

Thanks for the input, bogusheadbox. I have tried trimming for hover and flying "in-control" the whole time, I think I prefer that since I like the idea of quickly being able to hover and engage targets if necessary.

As for the gun, I prefer a low RoF when firing at armor, and a high RoF when firing at soft targets. One or two good hits and a truck is burning anyway. Need to do some range testing though. I once kept firing at targets and could not understand why my rounds always fell short.... then realized I forgot to turn on the laser rangefinder, lol!

Is the Ka-50 significantly faster than an Apache? If so, I was wondering how easy it would be for it to simply extend away then come back and camp somewhere to ambush the Apaches.

Also, how "quick" can you expert pilots set up for an attack? I know for planned targets, you coast to a hover, park the aircraft, go heads down, then start sending some Vikhrs downrange, but what is the plan of action if, for instance, en-route to target area, you come across a moving convoy of enemy vehicles? Can you take shots "on the run" or do you have to still "set up shop" somewhere before giving the enemy some punishment?

Significantly faster? No. I'm not sure which is faster, but roughly speaking if you're chasing him or he's chasing you and you're within weapons range, you'll stay that way. Likewise neither can "run down" the other to get in range if flying away. Their top speeds are roughly equivalent. Perhaps acceleration/rate of climb might be different, so if you have to go from a hover to max speed and then climb over a mountain range one or the other might have a clear advantage, but as I said I try to avoid those types of situations.
In EECH and Longbow I loved hunting enemy helos. In BS and the old Hind I stayed AWAY.


The Jedi Master

Apache 309 km/h. KA-50 315 km/h

Thanks... so once in range (and you will be if you see the other guy), it's a fight to the death eh? I don't even think you can avoid a Hellfire missile as it is laser-guided. And the FOV of the Apache guidance system is MUCH GREATER than the Shkval.

It is very much like entering your Model-T Ford in a F1 race with the KA-50. I'm finding the A-10 far easier. It's like the Russians said 'Right, how can we make this really hard to operate, fly and employ weapons from?' and then doubled that lol.

The gunner in the Apache can keep his eyes on you while the pilot does his dance - not so easy for the dual-hatted pilot in the Ka-50.


+infinity


There's no need to do this if you trim properly.

Of course this is true and i used to fly continuously with all autopilot / stability channels engaged. After a few people mentioned flying with yaw channel off, i decided to give it a go and found this allowed me to do more with the aircraft.

For me its a personal choice only.

Give it a go though and see what you think. It would be good to get others feedback on it.

Without the yaw channel engaged, wouldn't the helicopter constantly want to weathervane to point into the wind? I find the yaw channel useful for setting up a "sliding" hover. One where I want the nose to stay in one direction, but where I want to slide left or right in order to slowly reveal targets that are hidden behind terrain.

Of course for using auto hover and turn to target, yaw will need to be on.

I find i like it in applications where loads of direction cahnges will be needed, you are not fighting the autopilot in those. (ok it wasn't really a problem when i flew with yaw on as i just trimmed loads.) But i just find the aircraft more manouverable in this config.

SO hovering, entering the hover or wanting to use turn to target, yes, i will always select yaw on.

As for weathervane'ing (is that even a word?) into wind, not a problem as you still trim for direction of flight and direction changes are more like the old select hold trim. .

Its just my preference and probably not everyones taste. I used to have all the chanels on constantly, but this is my preference.

Give it a go and tell me what you think?

To each their own, BHB! Glad to see you found a method that works for you!

My personal choice is to leave all the AP channels on. I haven't yet had any problems with heading control, even in combat and evasive situtations. I find using the heading AP for route ingress, auto-turn to target, etc. reduces my workload letting me focus more on putting rounds on target.

I do use the Flight Director when making rocket or bomb runs, which raises the hair on the back of some necks, but my delivery accuracy is seriously affected without it. If anyone reading this has a BS2 .trk or video showing a successful rocket attack run without FD, I'd be very interested to see it.

[PS, "weathervaning" is, in fact, a word, and is a function of an aircraft's weathercock stability. heheh hehehehehe heheheheheheh]

Hur hur weathercock

Pmsl

yes rockets are not my favourite weapon. i will (where circumstances allow) take fuel pods over rockets. I never do use flight director on rocket runs, but i find you need to be close to snipe with them and being that close usually means i am in kill range of the bloody enemy i failed to spot in my ingress...

Damned those hidden mongrels. Maybe i am a coward ? but i like to stand off rather than get too close with rockets. with the range of the cannon i can stand off further than rockets and be effective. But if those pesky buggers are hiding in trees.... then the old rocket spam is better.

Apart from the basics of having the correct number set on the rear right wall for the warhead type and lasing just before release and being closer than you'd like..... i have nothing to offer to help with rocket runs.

You CAN evade a Hellfire incoming, but it's one of the hardest things you can attempt. The best way is to be close enough to launch a Vikhr that will hit him before the Hellfire hits you...if you make him break off to try and evade your missile, his loses lock! The other thing is terrain masking. The thing can't go over the hill and drop down on you.

Does anyone know if the Apache have a laser warning system modeled? If you have your laser off until you're in range, and you're coming up from the side, can you delay his warning of your approach? As I said, I usually avoid them, so I've never tried flipping the laser off to try and be stealthy.

As for rockets, I usually use them when I'm out of bullets!! Unless it's a big cluster of units, where the rocket dispersal helps out, I prefer the gun...it works at farther distances anyway! I think my record is 4 kills with rockets with the standard pods, and that was infantry in a group IIRC. For like 20 rounds of ammo I can get the same result.



The Jedi Master

I think the biggest advantage the Apache has over the Black Shark is that awesome IHADSS system. The speed and range of motion that you can engage an enemy is just so much faster than the limited capability of the Ka-50s gun. To literally be able to look and spray some return fire (even just to keep the enemies head down) is great. And the ability to do that WHILE your pilot is simultaneously either working to get you in a better engagement position OR working hard to get you out of a sticky situation is doubly good.

I'm not sure why the Russians decided to go with the limited azimuth gun on the Shark as opposed to a bottom or bottom/nose mounted one with more range of motion.

BeachAV8R

They didn't, they fitted a 30mm cannon.

Nate

I didn't know we were getting ultra technical here. Cough..excuse me - cannon.

According to Wikipedia anyway on the Ka-50 cannon:

"The semi-rigid mounting improves the cannon's accuracy, giving the 30 mm a longer practical range and better hit ratio at medium ranges than with a free-turning turret mount."

Which makes sense..but I think I'd rather have the inaccuracy and quick response of the Apache's chain gun..

Right, so under a mile the Apache's is superior, but outside that range its effectiveness drops off with greater round dispersal.

The solution might be to mount the gun just like it is on the Ka-50 now...but on the belly instead of the right cheek. That would mean it would have limited-to-no ability to fire upwards, but I don't know how much that would hamper it. Increased ability to shoot left vs decreased azimuth...

Gun is a generic term. It is used to refer to things as small as a pistol to as large as the Yamato's 18-inch guns. Saying machine gun would be inaccurate, but while every machine gun is a gun, not every gun is a machine gun.



The Jedi Master

I like to think the designers considered this trade off when they drew up the Ka-50: it's primary mission was air-to-ground so sacrificing effective cannon range for further improved targeting capability was a non-starter. Sure, being able to quickly put rounds on an enemy helo in a dogifght is a nice feature, but one that falls outside the Ka-50's design envelope.

I know, nobody likes that answer, but that's why it was designed the way it was.

I witnessed an MP fight where a player in a Ka-50 took on FOUR Cobras in a dogfight and nailed them all with the guncannon. He even threw in a rolling scissors, just to demonstrate his bad assery-ness. Best dogfight ever.

Well which is the best way to gun down an enemy helo? Because trying to lock the shval ( or however it's spelled lol ) onto the chopper is a right bugger but the only other method would be to fix the cannon/gun but without any type of leading sight that is damn hard especially if your up against a moving target.

Locking up an air target with the Shkval, setting the proper air-to-air mode, and using the laser range finder to get an accurate range measurement is the most accurate way to place rounds on these kinds of targets. It is a bugger, but, again, proper ingress planning and keeping an eagle eye out for bandits helps keeps things out of hand. If you're at the point where you're trying to snapshot on an aerial enemy, you're in deep doo doo. It can be done, though: here's a vid of me snapshooting Vikhrs on a Su-25 and then a Hind.

OK, that said, if you're out of time and need to gun a close-in target, select the cannon without locking up a target and you'll get a fixed reticule on your HUD that you can use WW2-style to aim. It's not as sexy as a gyro- or radar-predictive gunsight, but, again, the Ka-50 wasn't designed for an air-to-air role so it doesn't have the specific equipment required for this role. The fact that we have two air-to-air targeting modes is a bonus.

I find the best way to gun down an enemy helo is to eject....

.... At least i am guaranteed a soft landing.

Wow..awesome video Erik... Of course..they were coming right at you...when they have little relative motion it isn't too bad. I can almost never find and lock them when they are moving across the windscreen..

Nice shooting!

I've had some success with the HMS and air targets, but it's 50/50. It either works well or I wind up chasing the target all over...



The Jedi Master