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#3498794 - 01/20/12 02:00 AM Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why.  
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Ajay Offline
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The 'sytaleness ' of the il2 series is well quoted over the years, with FMB work this was overcome and some awesome ground pounding campaigns could be flown.But in standard form this was not the case.An odd bit of flak here and there, maybe a vehicle coloumn or a train if you were lucky.

Thinking back to my first sim EAW , yeh im a noobie to sims in general.I had nice memories of that game, but in reality the ground attack component was just as sterile. An odd coloumn of vehicles here or there , some flak, and took me forever to find my first train.Editing it was a pia and left to guys who worked in the code, not spoilt like us who learnt how easy the FMB was in a few years when il2 dropped.

EAW menus and the intro were great..even that little Mustang flying around the microprose world at the beginning, then briefing rooms, chatter and scraping chairs..a cough as everyone silenced before we got the gen about the upcoming mission.Nothing in il2 has come close to that side of it, it put you in the mood for what was to come, not just reading a scrollable line of text...yawnzzz.Thats sterile at its best, doesnt really put you in any sort of mood does it, especially any sort of www2 time frame.

The gui has always been a boring deal in IL2 , the briefing maps are even sterile and not something one would see for the time period.Then i suppose for a while until we got better systems and il2 progressed and got better you also could not put a good amount of aircraft in the air. Big bomber formations, even big fighter formations were out of reach for the majority until hardware caught up.

I know the subject has probably been done to death but i find it interesting, the different thinking behind the guys who made games like EAW compared to IL2. Is it more the users fault..screaming that we want better FMs and DMs to a point where 20kmh's off at a certain height is enough to start a rant, so the other stuff (immersion) has been put aside while they try and achieve better flight fidelity, sure i love great plane models and the direction the cockpits have gone, the best i have been in, and i have lomac, blackshark and flaming cliffs as well.Not that i am any good in them wink

Lomac i found the sterilist game of all , i am just not a fire and forget dude it seems. And the terrain left me ..well..bleak to say the least.Plus i couldnt find any love for the planes like i have for the props.Blackshark seems very promising as its more i have my hands full than even worrying about what the hell is on the ground or in the air yet! But same, the interface is bland and nothing like immersive.

For me EAW gets the nod gui wise and pre flight preparation as well as the after flight scoreboard, basic but very well implemented.If you could roll that into il2 or CloD i would be a happy chap in that area. I remember you could place tracks into campaigns for il2 but they were still text on screen with a bit of user made video action.Possibly a good attempt at something, just poorly implemented.

What happened to the days of cool briefings before missions ? And no i dont have RoF so i realise i am possibly missing something very cool there. I know before CloD was released and way back in the SoW days there was a heap of debates here and at ic about clickable cockpits vs a better gui and immersion in other areas, briefings etc. The clickers couldnt care less about the immersive side as it did not have anything to do with what happened when you were actually flying, supposedly.Mood is a big thing i find, to a certain extent you make your own, but if mood didn't count for anything then every hollywood movie would be a blockbuster.

Are all those clicky voters still here , seems if that was such a big draw beck in the day then they would be, i mean that side of it works well, the cockpits are brilliant and functional , much more so than il2 so why still the amount in il that were campaigning for the clicky cockpits? Just wondering smile as that side of the game is clearly the best part. I was one for no click pits but i am glad of the feature know that i know how to use it, but i think i could have got by without it and really would have rather seen the other things i mentioned added instead. Hopefully one day we do get a sim that harks back to the old briefings, and aircraft hangars, i mean you can skip it if you want so it is not really a big issue is it,.

For me it would add a lot when you are entering a campaign , watching your Tiffie be armed with some missiles pre flight, juicing up your 109 in a field before blasting out over the channel when you select your fuel percent, slotting a 250 onto your 190 before you head over the russin steppes or just putting on leather helmet when you hop into the tiger moth with a worried grin on your dial, all served up after an animated or at least period type briefing...you know..tallyho chaps , lets give Jerry a blood nose today ...and all that sort of stuff, different set areas if you changed Squadrons or airfields or plane type. A dynamic briefing if you will, different briefings that coincide with what has happened in your previous mission.


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#3499031 - 01/20/12 08:30 AM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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msalama Offline
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The DCS A-10C & Blackshark, because the quality of modelling and attention to detail is unsurpassed.

#3499036 - 01/20/12 08:41 AM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Dangerous Waters or Steel Beasts Pro ... can't figure between the two.

#3499037 - 01/20/12 08:48 AM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Rowans Operation Overlord , for exactly the reasons you state...and then EAW.
The DCS series are brilliant, but they don't do immersion.
Cheers
keith

#3499080 - 01/20/12 10:53 AM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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msalama Offline
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Quote:
but they don't do immersion.


Depends. I can immerse myself fully in the technicalities involved wink

#3499090 - 01/20/12 11:31 AM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Falcon BMS for me (or Falcon in general TBH, F4AF is also very immersive to me).
All systems and the "game of chess" while just hanging out at angels 25 heading somewhere.

As one might see graphics are very secondary to me in a sim, unlike so many complaints at different sim-forums nowadays (*cough*bananaforums*cough*).

#3499160 - 01/20/12 02:03 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: theOden]  
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Apache Longbow by far - one of the first helisims to get heli flight mechanics right between hover and cruise. Lots of the heli sims of the era just had a model push the stick and hold it moves forwards, push more it goes faster, release and center it stops.
And campaign also great.

Now black shark 2 and a-10 are the my preference if I get time to play...

Also online wars in IL-2 that was immersive and relatively real, how you flew and took risks, DF-servers not. so much...

#3499182 - 01/20/12 02:31 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: theOden]  
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Xeno Offline
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Originally Posted By: theOden
Falcon BMS for me (or Falcon in general TBH, F4AF is also very immersive to me).
All systems and the "game of chess" while just hanging out at angels 25 heading somewhere.

As one might see graphics are very secondary to me in a sim, unlike so many complaints at different sim-forums nowadays (*cough*bananaforums*cough*).


For me too, 'tho I prefer moments when intel got it wrong. Situations when prebriefed unit you had to hit can't be found at predicted location. It makes you think, make decisions instead of dully following flight-plan, knowing your target will be there. Impredictibility makes sim feel more life-like.

#3499320 - 01/20/12 04:27 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Jedi Master Offline
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I don't know, it seems like people here are getting "immersion" from purely one aspect--the level of modeling of the sim.

How "immersive" are those DCS briefing screens? What kind of "you are there" feeling do you get from the radio comms? What kind of interaction do you have beyond your own cockpit?

The sims of today are SIMS. You feel like you're flying a world class simulator, you don't feel like you're a pilot flying in combat. I get the impression I could walk into a REAL simulator and handle it fine. I don't get the feeling that I know "what it was like" for a pilot in Desert Storm.

Jane's series in the mid/late 90s was best at it. Longbow 1 and 2, F-15, just gave you a great "you are there" feeling despite technical shortcomings that for the time were completely understandable. Other notables were F-15 Strike Eagle III (the predecessor to Jane's F-15, which many called "Strike Eagle IV"), the Dynamix Aces series (from Red Baron thru Pacific and Europe), 1942 PAW and F-14 Fleet Defender, and even the Origin RPG/sims like Strike Commander and Wings of Glory.

The first "sim" sim I had was Flanker, from ED, in the mid 1990s. Next was Flanker 2. Then came Il-2 and LOMAC and I saw the pattern. The 21st century has given us the technically-accurate-but-totally-soulless sim, and I can't say I'm satisfied with the dedication to the sim to the detriment to the soul.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3499337 - 01/20/12 04:43 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Depends on the meaning of the word...

Webopedia says "In the context of virtual reality, the term immersion is used to describe the users' emotional reaction to the virtual world in terms of feeling as if they are actually a part of the virtual world"
and thats the one I'd go with. At the time thats how the older sim's felt, warts and all.

But Google says
1. The action of immersing someone or something in a liquid.
2. Deep mental involvement: "his total immersion in Marxism".
and for sure the DCS button pushing fits no 2, (for #1 maybe Silent Hunter?)

At the risk of being stereotypical, it all went "wrong" when the russians came to our rescue with all those programmers with nothing to do. Is the national sport of russia really chess? Did you ever hear the crowd roar at a chess match?
Maybe a Simon Templar'ish lift of the eyebrow...
:^) <- tongue-in-cheek smiley, means don't take it seriously

Cheers
Keith

#3499536 - 01/20/12 07:41 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Online VEF missions in IL2. Best flying ever.

#3499599 - 01/20/12 08:37 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Entil'zha
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See, that's just it. There's more to immersion than the flying. That's where the 21st century sims fail. Also, if it only happens in MP, and not in SP, then it also fails.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3499663 - 01/20/12 09:44 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Ajay Offline
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Exactly. I think i missed out on the golden age of immersive type sim and instead fell into the brilliant looking but souless bracket.Ahhh if only we had 100 million so we could make our own biggrin

The closest i got with il2 was carrier ops because of the vast emptiness.Taking off in an sbd to find the japanese carriers, divebombing and missing and then being worried if i would make it back home again without ending up in the middle of nowhere ,lost. Icons turned off or its no fun smile After twenty minutes of flying an ever widening pattern where you think your fleet should be can get quite worrying.

Chess is a good example Keith smile


My il2 page
Seelowe Campaign
Cliffs of Dover page
CloD
My Stuff (some nsfw words:) )
My Head+DayZ Stories


#3499731 - 01/20/12 10:42 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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msalama Offline
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Quote:
That's where the 21st century sims fail.


You know, before the DCS series came out I used to fly IL-2 for years, on- and offline. Offline I was tormented by soulless and static campaigns and cretinous AI, online by a$$hats complaining how a) oleg is a communist/fascist/cleaning lady/truckdriver with no understanding of SW development b) x/y/z is over/undermodelled c) the online war providers are skewed one way or another and thus provide ber planes for the enemy and porked #%&*$# for us d) the world sucks and I can't get it up.

So yah, "soulless" 21st century sims like DCS:WH any bloody time for me please wink

#3499733 - 01/20/12 10:47 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Xeno Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ajay
Exactly. I think i missed out on the golden age of immersive type sim and instead fell into the brilliant looking but souless bracket.Ahhh if only we had 100 million so we could make our own [...]



Well, if you wanna see things that way ... wink
On the other hand with BMS F4 has never been better biggrin
Really not that bad times for us simmers as it may seem.

Last edited by Xeno; 01/20/12 10:50 PM.
#3499743 - 01/20/12 10:57 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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msalama Offline
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Quote:
Really not that bad times for us simmers as it may seem.


No, true that, better than it's been in a long while actually. And my gripes with IL-2 disregarded I still hope they get their s**t together and CoD fixed ASAP. Never too many sim makers out there IMO...

#3499786 - 01/20/12 11:52 PM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: msalama]  
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Xeno Offline
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TBH I haven't try 4.11 yet, but knowing it's main features maybe it's worth to dust off good ole Sturmovik wink
New, not all-seeing anymore AI affected by the same limits as human player (g, overspeed,overheat (yay!) etc...), more advanced CEM (maybe not up to the CloD level, but still) + 6DoF, makes it almost new game. There's still some fun to be had with Il2.

Last edited by Xeno; 01/20/12 11:53 PM.
#3499804 - 01/21/12 12:17 AM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Arma2!

#3499840 - 01/21/12 01:00 AM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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Wings of Glory (Anyone remember that one?) and Battlefield 3.

Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe is a close 3rd.


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#3499870 - 01/21/12 01:34 AM Re: Ot, maybe, sorta: Most immersive sim/game you have played and why. [Re: Ajay]  
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I would also add B-17 and B-17 II TM8th, Tornado, Slient Hunter 1-4, Task Force 1942, EF 2000 and probably many more I just don't remember. While I greatly appreciate the amazing advancements that have been made in the simulation genre (stuff that we could only dream about being in a sim 25-30 years ago), I feel these technical advancements in FM/DM GFX and complex systems would have happened anyway, nothing stays static especially in electronics or the products that derive from them. But an aspect of simulations has been for the most part traded off along the way for another in this progression. The aspect I'm refering to is a outstanding SP experiance. If you noticed most of the games I listed and many others either didn't have MP or had some form of very limited MP capability (with an exception of a few). I think that because internet access has gone from something that years ago many didn't understand except the geekiest of geeks and honestly just wasn't available in most places to today where it is just about available everywhere in the world. From kids to grandparent, almost everyone is on or uses the internet daily, I think it has become a second nature, like electricity, mobile phones or cable/satilite TV. So what I feel happened was simulator developers decided to make a switch because of the advancements in internet technology. Products that use to focus on a strong SP experiance to entertain were moved aside for products with a strong MP experiance to entertain. The reasoning (right or wrong) was probably that before the internet you could only play these games by yourself, so if a game developers wanted to sell thier products (and future products) they needed the customer to feel immersed in that product. But now you can play your games with just about anyone with a good connection, the game developers came to the conclusion that no one would you want to keep playing games in SP now that MP has come of age. While a nice theory thay forgot most people do not like being told how they should play thier games and many times most just want to excape for a little while from actual human interaction.


I would love these companies to offer products that were robust in all aspects (Technical models, MP and SP) but could a company really offer that kind of product for under $60.00? Unfortunally I don't think it can be done, maybe at $100.00 but how well would it sell? Most people get a little hedgy about buying a piece of game software when the $100.00 price tag range is approached and of course would someone who is really only interested in MP or SP really want to pay extra for an certain aspect of a game that doen't appeal to them?


"It's the man, not the machine" Gen Chuck Yeager
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