So, I get a call from a lab mate to fire up the new IL2 with 4.11, and after getting it setup, I see that some Spitfire loving open pit modder has taken over the 4.11 patch.

FW A9 used to go 580 kph and was a BnZ plane, now it is a Ki-61 turd.
FW D9 used to hit 590, now it hits 580, and overheats in 20 seconds, instead of 4 -7 min like in real life.

And my poor lovely TA-152 H1
Used to hit 580/590 kph but now only goes 560, and overheats in about 20 seconds on boost. Worthless now to fly this plane as it was used in high BnZ fashion.

In instance, most of the planes in the sim now overheat on boost in about 20 seconds. Aviation manuals needed Team Diadolos, IRL it took usually 2 to 7 min for most planes.

I appreciate the 6 DOF for the Track IR, new difficulty settings and small fixes, but you have done a fair amount to ruin the BnZ aspect of the sim for more advanced players.

Wake up, secure the right aviation manuals and remove heads from butts.

And stop adding flyable planes, no one wants to #$@!#@! fly. If your a big fan of the Pe, awesome. You can fly it with the two other retired gentleman that have forgone sex in their marriages for the excitement of bombers.

Sheesssh

By using correct operating procedures you will find that it now take much more to get the max out of your ride. Not just powering up 110% throttle and off you go. 4.11 brings in ton of new and huge fixes that should have been there from the start.



And for the record, many of us love the new bombers and (soon to be flyable) AI planes. Whereas you call yourself "an advanced player", I think of you as "a limited one" for not experiencing this sim to its fullest. Thank God TD doesn't listen the likes of you.

I did not say I am an advanced player, simply a fan of energy planes. Not powering up to 110% is great and many of the changes seem nice, but TD ruined the FWs. There is a reason the Germans designed those planes to be BnZ energy fighters, and not have low wing loading. And, no 44 or 45 year fighter overheated on boost in a dive with the radiator open in 20 seconds.

I have read your guide before and seen your P51 victories track (which is uber) but you forget one thing, I have fought several of the TD folks online, and in many instances it was my FW A9, D9 or TA that tore thru their Spits. Yes, I have met TD before in isolated pockets of online combat.

Now kindly put back the FW flight models.

So you're saying put back an in accurate FM to please you and your ego?
I can go with that, perhaps they can put another 30-40 MPH on the Spits for me too.

Many people are saying the FWs are better than ever. Yet to play it myself, just saying.

So I've heard too. Haven't had the chance to test it yet. With this in mind...





... I will need to test it before posting further comments. Non the less, your above comment about TD leads to what point? Alluding that TD deliberately messed up FW FM's because they kept getting their arses shot out of the sky?? I rest my case.

The major reason why I flew P-51 (before switching to bombers) was not just because I liked its looks, but because of the 3 top dogs at that time (D-9, Tempest, and P-51D) it was the most difficult to master thus the satisfaction was greater. I love flying 190s/Tempests almost as much as Stangs.

As for the overheating, there are many small issues that need to be ironed out. We will definitely get a patch for 4.11 soon. If you have hard data to back up your claims, post them over at banana forums. The only way to do it, everything else is dissipating energy.

Well, you can't deny his passion.

Brigs, trust me, enough gifts have already been thrown the way of Spit in IL2 ad bountifulum.

Thormeister - We both know, no late war fighter overheated in ~25 seconds while on boost in a dive. I will try to dig up later this month with my limited German, some of those FW manuals, but I believe the real life boost time was about ~5 to 7 min before engine damage began. Restored or rebuilt P-51s from the War also dont overheat in level flight on a hot day in 20 seconds (and I am not talking about the modified ones for use in something like the Reno Air Races).

As it is now, you have a whole gaggle of TnB planes (uber spits, ufo 185 that had two prototypes in real life (lol), etc) that do 550 to 580 kph and a whole gaggle of now poorly performing BnZ planes that do 560 to 580, but thanks to the excessive overheat model and FW changes, their advantages in the BnZ arena have pretty much gone out the door. Is there any reason now not to fly the Spit 25lbs all the time?

Read it for yourself, all 7 pages and counting. When you get through, you can read the Corsair thread, too.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29083

Thanks Dave. I rest my case, ... the FWs have been trashed. I especially enjoy the comments from TD members where they tested out the new flight models (FM) in the quick mission builder.

Say, what ?

Are you $@@!$@! kidding me? Even the upgraded AI could be defeated by a 120 IQ seven year old after three or four days of practice.

So many nice changes with 4.11, but for me and my duel server, back to 4.10.1.

Give me a week or two (until I get back to the USA) and I will release this patch as is, but with a built in uninstaller too (with the hotfix included). This will allow everyone to try it and then uninstall it if they choose.

The majority of the Spitfire fanboys were up in arms about the 4.10 patch introducing the new less stable Spitfire. It has a greater response to adverse yaw than before requiring more dedicated rudder use and making the Spitfire a generally more difficult aircraft to fly. Those people are still up in arms about the 4.11 patch not "correcting" that.

What the Spitfire has to do with a FW190 discussion is totally unknown to me.

The FW190 did get quite a few changes. I noticed that you haven't (yet) mentioned the much improved turn times, better energy retention, and faster acceleration making the FW190 better able to maintain overall speed.

Fixed that for ya.

Bye bye to the Noob-tube of Il-2 1946, 190 pilots have to work for a living now.

Are you kidding me Blonde? It has never been easy to be a FW BnZ man and now it is down the sh#tter. And even when I go dig up the actual info and boost data, some other spit knucklehead will come along with a different source claiming it is incorrect. And so goeth into debate infinity

Icefire - The FW doesnt need much improved turn times. It is not a Spit.

I don't know, sounds possible there might be a legitimate complaint, at least where the Corsair takeoff perforamce is concerned, but it also sounds like that will be addressed.

I haven't played 4.11 yet by I am curious about the overheating. While I can't speak intelligently about the -190, from everything I've read about Corsair pilots, the it seemed they could throw that plane all over the place at full power, full prop pitch, and long (longer than 20 sec, anyway) burst of WEP without it breaking the plane. Engine may have needed an overhaul afterwards, but it didn't burn out in flight.

Does "Engine Overheat" really mean that your engine is overheating or is it the game's way of saying, "keep an eye on that".

Ignore it and the engine will Overheat and sieze. That has always been the case but I don't know how much v4.11m has changed it?


Wheels

According to the 4.11m readme, engine damage from overheat no longer occurs at a set time after overheat and the type of damage can vary (oil overheat vs. coolant overheat).

Why would one use boost in a dive...?

Legitimate data is still the basis of a solid argument. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. Still not sure what the Spitfire has to do with it.

It did need improved turn times. They were off by a couple of seconds (I believe it's the British tests I was reading for that) and thus that along with a variety of other issues in the modeling has been corrected. In my mind for the MUCH better. The biggest problem I have with the FW190 in 4.11 is to get it to slow down on landing. It holds energy maybe a little TOO well now.

The takeoff distance is a bit long... and my understanding is also that it will be corrected. Accuracy, for me, anyways is the key regardless of if it makes the plane "better" or "worse". Even that is subjective but one can try

The overheating is much more nuanced now. The RPM (controlled by prop pitch keys in most aircraft) and throttle together are much more important than before. Before you'd just toss it at 103% and keep going for ages. Now you do have to do a little more management to prevent serious overheat. Managing the RPMs you can still keep the throttle high and boost on. Speed is also much more critical I find. Flying fast you cool the engine that much more where before it had some but seemingly lesser effects. These things all matter a lot more than they used to.

Another upside is that the radiators are actually fixed for aircraft with R-2800 engines. The Corsair, Hellcat and Thunderbolt have all had useless radiator controls for years... now they are useful again which is wonderful.

I think there will be some adjustment and maybe even some tweaking from TD but it really does make for a more authentic experience. I think there is some distrust of the changes but I think the majority will get used to it and really see the effect it has to air combat. Being a better manager of your engine will get you further ahead than before. It does sound like the air racing guys are already loving this as it adds some additional variables to their races too!

Did the Me-262 FM get some changes too? I seem to be able to fly away from Mustangs now, something that was next to impossible for me with prior patches. I can't count the number of times a P-51 caught me in a climb and were able to run away from me in level flight when I was already at full throttle in the Me-262.


Wheels

The Corsair was powered by the 2000 horse Pratt and Whitney. Same engine in the Hellcat and P-47 Thunderbolt. You couldn't kill that thing. One of the best powerplants they ever put in an airplane. Reliable and Tough.

Dont we all know it Pooch. There are photos from Henderson Field I believe of Corsairs laced with bullets in the engine mount and they kept on flying just fine (at least well enough to return to base).

Engine overheat in 20 seconds my ass.

Well I am not really suggesting that it be ignored. Only that it in itself isn't necessarily an Overheat, but rather an IMPENDING overheat. And therefore the lack of realism suggested by timing events like, say, WEP on to the "Engine Overheat" subtitle isn't valid. What is valid is when the actual guages (oil, CHT, or coolant temp) say that the temperature is now critical. The two very well might be one and the same, but I don't know that they are.

Does opening and closing the cowl flaps affect the temperatures? Or can can you even do that?

yes and yes.

Aww its so nice to see the FW and the Spitfire B*tch still goes on to this day.


Carry on

Second. Its doesn't say 'Outch! You are about to explode!', but rather it sais, 'Now you could start to spend some time with thinking about temps.'

Dangerous - yes, but critical - no.

I'm not sure, have never flown a real life fighter, but it seems the overheat is a bit too quick for me too. And once some planes overheat, they are much harder to cool back down than they used to be. Is this more realistic? Have the people that are on the Daidalos team any more experience flying a real fighter than I have? I think not....

Many sim people jumped on the "more difficulty is always more realistic" bandwagon a long time ago. Probably due to some macho ego problem than anything based on reality. I have never thought that just because a sim plane is harder to fly that it's better or more realistic. A challenge is nice but only if it's based on reality. A challenge that is just for the sake of challenge but not based on the way things are in real life has no place in a sim. Try flying a P-51 now and let it overheat on purpose and then try to cool it back down. Challenging yes, but more realistic? I don't know, the jury is out on that one.

Seems that all place across the board are nastier handling now. But that might be my imagination. I'm going back to the mods already. I do like the AI not seeing through clouds and a few other things but I don't know if it's worth it right now. Not only do I fly the mods, I still fly the old UP2.01 pack and still like it overall better than this non-mod patch in pure fun and the dizzying selection of planes that the stock game can't match.

P.S.- plus the sound ( especially engine sound ) is much superior in the mods. The Daidalos people just don't get the sound thing for some reason. A plane that sounds like my battery powered weed-eater is disconcerting. I like a virtual engine that sounds like a real engine. And all stock planes have the exact same engine sound too, they all sound alike.

I don't share your views. In particular after reading a couple of books from the era. In "Air combat at 20 feet" by Garrett Middlebrook (I am reading just now), the author repeatedly states they never exceeded 90% power in their B-25's except in the emergency where they needed the extra power. But even that was limited and led to redlining the RPM's and overheating the cylinders. And the new 4.11 B-25 simulates this very nicely.

For me, 4.11 leaped many light years ahead of any currently moded version. Yes, CEM will have to be adjusted / fine tuned in the following patches, but the game just got so much closer to the CloD's CEM which in comparison works.

True, the sounds are still crap. But mods will catch up pretty soon. By looking at the AI and numerous MP features, I can't even think of going back to the previous game version.


For the record, they messed up with the bomb fuses in 4.10 but made them perfect in 4.11. I will agree with that though.

Ok but what does the new DT patch do about planes that already had savage problems with overheating ( the FM-2 come to mind ). A few planes like the FM-2 overheated in older patches so easily that flying offline campaigns in them usually had me turning off the overheat totally in the difficulty menu when I started the campaign!! Most planes were manageable but some like the FM-2 were terrible. Does the patch address these planes or make them even worse? I hope DT realizes that not all planes had the same overheat model, some were a bit much in my mind and I worry that those will be really bad now. Have not tried everything yet.

I did not find that the AI ace setting much more challenging than the old AI in several tests I did. The ace AI acted differently but were not much more difficult to handle. My first test was four CW-21s ( me and AI buddies ) set on ace against four early Zeroes set on ace. I set the mission on scramble. I noticed that the enemy AI acted differently in that they stayed up at high altitude and made us climb to them and attacked us by diving but only when we were almost to their altitude. In the past they would have come down to near ground level and attacked us down low. But like the old days, my AI buddies ended up getting shot down while I had to shoot down most of the enemy. I usually shot down about three of the zeroes on average in about five tests. Another scenario I did about 5 times was four P-51Cs with four enemy Bf-109G6 lates. I found this more challenging at first but soon got results about the same as older patches through the years. I guess I had to re-acquaint myself with the P-51 style of fighting. But overall I found the AI only marginally more challenging. Not enough to write home about really. Just a hair improved but at least slightly noticeable.

Rather than listen to debates about who has the right historical aviation books, I am attempting to set up a phone interview with a surviving Tuskegee Airman and a German FW 190 D9 or A9 pilot. Work in progess.

After more testing, overall I like the patch, but for online combat, this is a big gift to the already gifted UFO aircraft, like the 185 M-71, the Spit 25lbs, and to a slightly lesser extent the La7.

Subjectively, (I will look at their source code later to find out the exact objective time limits) on a scale of one being never overheat to ten being overheating within ten seconds or so at radiator set to 4, and starting the first combat pass with boost fully on (110% power), you have:

Spit 25lbs - 1 - engine does not overheat much
185 M-71 - 1 or 2, ... dido
La7 - about 2.5 or 3, some overheat but only after maybe five minutes
P39 Q10 or P63 about 6 or 7, will overheat after about maybe 90 seconds
FW Dora D9 1945 - about 8, overheats within one minute, and damage comes soon after
P51 D-NT - about 9, overheat after 20 to 40 seconds, damage quickly results if not scaled back in pitch
TA-152 H1 - about 10, the worst of the group and totally f#%^#! by TD. Overheats in maybe 20 seconds, engine will burn out down low in under one min. Definitely not the plane Kurt Tank designed.

What this means subjectively for online combat is that the P51 pilot who got maybe four kills an hour, will now get one, and this is due to needing to exit the combat area to continually cool the engine. You now have to spend so much more time now out of the fight riding around at 60 percent pitch and 60 or 70 percent power. This means most of the former BnZ aircraft are essentially borked to a medium or large degree. You get one or maybe two passes and if you dont score hits, you must, ... repeat must exit the field or your engine will quickly go, while your spit 25lbs opponent can simply catch you on boost since their engine takes so much longer to overheat. The overheat issue is so bad that even a master P51 vet with years in IL2 can be defeated by a much less dangerous plane that has longer engine overheat times. You simply wait em out till their engine goes bad, and then they have either burned it up or they cannot zoom away at 560 kph and you catch em and take em out. To see this clearly, try the F4U-D 1944 vs the P51 D-NT 1944 in both 4.10.1 and 4.11. In ole 4.10.1 they were very closely matched and a master P51 pilot could eventually turn the tables on the corsair. Now, the corsair pilot does not need to even fly that well, you just wait out the P51 until the engine goes and catch em in most cases.

Dont believe me, try it yourself.

And thanks to my friend 357th_Ulti (a P51 master) for helping test this under full real conditions.

Nice. Post it up over at the banana forum so TD can see it.

Thanks Dave. I did and your right, their full of bananas over there

The critical difference in 4.11 is not level flight speed , it is time to engine overheat while doing an apex climb.

This is the way Boom and Zoom fighters were designed to work. Period. This is the method of the P51, FW, TA, Tempy, etc.... fully 40% of the planes in the game were designed for. You fly it in level flight and turn horizontally, you usually die. They are designed for the vertical fight, to boom down and zoom right back up using apex climbs that get close to stall speed often when they top out.

They dive and then zoom climb back up (say 2000m in one go from base attack back up close to stalling out).

I can faithfully replicate, putting the TA 152 into a dive with 4.11 and then climb to stall speed (it stalls at about 1870m of climb from whatever altitude you started the climb from, and at about 200 kph), by which time the engine is overheating, IN ONE PASS. If I keep this up, the engine is fried by pass 3 or 4. This is directly contrary to all the historical evidence of the late FWs and TAs which where specifically designed for zooming up to the clouds.

THIS STALL CLIMB HEATING IS THE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE OF 4.11 versus 4.10.1. In the older patch, I could get three to five apex climbs before overheat (say roughly 2 to 5 min). Now, in 4.11, I must drop pitch, exit and circle around cooling the engine. That makes my TA or FW or P51 damn near worthless. Why ? Cause I must circle to continually cool the engine and after one steep climb I am back in overheat territory. So I am now left with level flight turning combat and everyone knows how bad the P51 or TA sucks at that against a Spit 25lbs or La7.

As to the level flight data provided by others, still checking. I can see though that the TA has had a significant reduction in abilities (and about 30 kph in level flight speed) from 4.10.1 to 4.11.

Still testing.....

I do not appreciate more gifts being handed to the already underwhelming open pit Spit 25lbs/185/La7 princesses.

You pretentious, obnoxious little blowhard.

So you roll in here insulting both the devolopers AND other people who deign to use a different aircraft than your particular favourite and then you expect us to bow down with respect and pay heed to your frankly inaccurate and baseless accusations?

I'm not even gonna bother arguing with such a narrow minded, bigoted little brat such as you. You clearly have made up your mind and won't won't listen or consider any counter argument. You've already proved your mettle - or more accurately your lack therof - with your arrogant and obnoxiously presented opinions. And thats all they are, btw, opinions; I have not seen one unequivocal fact, piece of data or statistic to back up your offensive rant. Maybe, just maybe you'd have had a chance of a fair hearing here or at 1C if you'd come in with some solid data but in this manner, no specs, just your opinions and with your pissy attitude? I don't think so chum.

Right now, your a just a bag of hot air and you ain't making many friends round here. I for one will be glad to see the back of you.

Woah, stick in the butt there Fenrir ? Let me guess, you fly the spit 25lbs ? Online ?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Go to any online 4.11 server. Take TA-152 H1. Climb to 1000m and get full speed up to 530 kph after a few minutes. Now turn on boost, take a small dive to pick up speed, and climb up steeply using 110% power (as if escaping a spit 25lbs on your tail). By the top of your climb (at about 1870m above where you started your climb if you trim it right) as you approach a stall, your engine will be in overheat.

In one pass.

Continue for just a few more passes and bang, engine fried. Now try your plane, Spit 25lbs. You can ride around doing apex climbs for several minutes before engine starts knocking.

Now repeat on any 4.10.1 server. Watch the big difference in the TA 152 H1 (or FWs or P51s).

I agree about the P-51, it has been a bit neutered because you can't fight on anything less than 95% power. It takes forever to cool down unless you cut way, way back on power. And that is dangerous against human or AI planes, period.

One thing that needs looked at is the fact that, like in real life, these virtual engines have a power band that varies from plane to plane. Look at the KI-27, which most people don't fly much. It has a very wide power band that means it can fly nearly as fast in level flight at 75% as it can at 95 or 100%!! Now the P-51 on the other hand, needs a lot of speed to make a good instantaneous high speed turn. Basically it has no low speed turn or even much of a medium speed turn. Granted, it's never been a turn fighter online but you ( in the past ) have been able to make due with it as a turn fighter offline against 109s or 190s as long as it's kept pretty fast. But it has a narrow power band whereby it needs almost always full power or near full power to get much speed and therefore be able to turn at all. But since it's now not able to run at constant full or near-full power, it's a floundering, stall happy piece of pooh. Offline against AI it's very hard to leave any fight against German fighters in the P-51, so with a floundering pile of pooh it becomes a difficult task to survive in the thing ( P-51 ).

Now another question arises and it becomes strikingly obvious now. Do these planes all ( or even some of them ) have a historical power band? Now that we have super easy to overheat planes this needs to be looked at by TD. Because it makes a helluva difference now that I have had time to test and experiment!! But whether anyone else ever noticed or not, there are variations in this game when it comes to the power bands, some planes just need a lot of manifold pressure to be worth a you-know-what.

If he flies a P-51 or some other planes and you're in your prissy little Spit, then you will indeed see the back of him!! And easily I might add....

The fact that this patch is a game changer to some planes and not to others cannot be denied ( except to the people it favors like you because it doesn't affect your fave plane ). Please read my post above about engine power bands. It's obviously made it easier for you in the artificial skies or else why would you be so happy about things? Go for four ace P-51s against four mid to late war AI ace 109s in QMB and then chime back in her later. Maybe we are actually testing out this patch with multiple planes and you're not?

P.S.- He seems to have a few more friends in here than you do......BTW!!

If you can defeat me in a fair same altitude duel, you are either Hartmann's ghost or you have a ganja problem that needs treatment.

The two would be opposites, Hartmann would be clearheaded and alert, the other, well....

The word "think" should be in there.

If you "Think" you can defeat me in a fair same altitude duel, you are either Hartmann's ghost or you have a ganja problem that needs treatment.

About your concerns, adapt. 4.12 will be along shortly, and I'm sure there will changes made that others don't like. And maybe you'll get your UberPlane back, unless it's not a historical representation of the way things were. TD has put a lot of hard work into what they have done, and one plane, or two, is not what this game is about. Nor has anyone claimed that this game perfect.

just my opinion.

One of your targets.

Enjoy

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29323

One of WD's most recent posts actually persuaded me for a second, I thought, "Yeah, okay, this guy is making his point well" but straight after it was back to the type of behaviour that throws up a thread called "What Spitfire Donkey D#ck decided to mess up 4.11 ?".

What an amazingly unhelpful way to promote your own cause. Straight off the bat you have immediately offended anyone with the power to actually change it and alienated anyone here who admires at least a modicum of restraint and reasonable behaviour.

+ 1

+1 as well.

I have not had much time to play the latest 4.11 patch so I've been following this thread reluctantly in case there may be some useful discussion and discovery of problems/solutions. Now it just feels like walking into a Chuckie Cheese and wondering if I can get a good steak, cold stout and a quiet table......hopeless.

(Oh, and thanks to Team Diaidolos for their contuinued dedication to Il2 and this community)
Derek

You are completely and utterly correct FlatSpinMan.

I had to go on this long conference trip to Frankfurt and I came back to San Diego and wanted to fire up a few of hobbies. Got back on my surfboard and was having an awesome swell until it went bad and took my $500 board with it.

Get back home, break out a beer and sit down to enjoy a bit of good dogfighting in IL2 (the game I learned on way back almost three years ago, now) and saw the 4.11 patch and all the raving, so set it up and I was like, ....

sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshhhh.

Cant a dude get a break from all the 185s and Spit 25lbs and now this. It was that type of day. It is the weakness of my character FSM that I am not known for careful deliberate moderation and tend to be far too blunt and press my attack.

As true as that is, take the Boom and Zoom aircraft in 4.11 and try to use them against a skilled opponent in online play and begin to see the marked difference between 4.11 and 4.10.1. Now take the uber planes and try the same thing, the delta is now much smaller and very, very close to what you have in 4.10.1

I don't know who you think you are chum, but you don't know me, you nothing of what I fly or how I choose to engage in this game. Your opinion on those matters therefore is irrelevent to me. My problem did not extend to you till now; it was solely with WDs choice - and I itterate that word CHOICE - in how he delivered his grievance.

You got beef with this patch? Fine.

You don't think your "fave" plane is doin what it should? Fine.

You gather your evidence and present to the GUYS WHO PUT HUNDREDS OF HOURS - FOR FREE - INTO CREATING A FREE ADDON AND IMPROVING THE GAME FOR US ALL.

But don't waltz in screaming and throwing a hissy fit and insulting most people in the place - it's rude, inconsiderate and bloody selfish. And if you don't like me pulling someone up for being such an arrogant boor then that's your problem mate not mine. It's people like WD that make this world a difficult place to live.

Oh and btw... You really rate someone on what plane he flies? We're back to that Ubizoo crap are we? Jesus. And here was me thinking a man should be judged by his wit, his countenance and his actions.

No?

Just me then.

Hopefully, it is people like WD who conduct basic (and we like to think groundbreaking at times) research into major problems that are slowly making our world and human health a better place, but I digress...:)

Fenrir, I dont have a favorite plane. And I do occasionally do some sorties in the spit 25lbs myself or the La7. But at my heart, I am a full real guy who likes long tough fights. When I head into a 20 min fight with someone like 357th_ULTI or IGOR, etc... I need every single tactic I can muster in the playbook. In that arena, it becomes very clear, how badly many of the BnZ planes have been affected while the uber ones really have not suffered much in 4.11 translation. You should also consider the other side of the coin. Any new patch by TD is greeted by waves of kowtowing but I dont automatically give heed because a work is free (or paid for). Count me a skeptic until through testing is done by those online who really can put it right to the max (like the afore mentioned ULTI).

There are probably less than 700 guys world wide who now flying online in any given week, so it wont be the end of the world. Those that love 4.11 can go there and those who liked the ole 4.10.1 can stay there. If I only flew offline, I would LOVE 4.11 I think. But the fights are not even close to a human online ace, so my server will hang with 4.10.1 a bit longer.

I believe that all your questions/#%&*$#/gripes/complaints were addressed in this post...

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=384102&postcount=3

You do realize that 3000M is less than 10K feet, right. On a tropical map, right?

I like the part about testing overheat at 110% in stall climb. I suppose there's historic data on that?

How many times over the years does 'historic data' really mean interpretation of combat stories?

You got the real data then recreate the real test including flying it the way the very talented test pilot had.
Otherwise you got your own biased, non-objective, flawed, opinion.

As I thought more about this last night, we are not being handed the keys to a new aircraft by Rosie the Riveter, and only late war Allies, (read the west), and a few high ranking Axis fliers had personal planes, and they were not refurbished after every mission. Reliability is a very good option to have in a game, and so is unreliability.

once again, just my opinion.

I always give immediate credence when the primary justification for a complaint about the FM/DM of one aircraft is the FM/DM of another.

"The FW is wrong because the Spit is wrong" is the finest logic to use and definately will go a long way to the improvement of the sim.

Or, possibly, the virtual pilot got shot down by a Spit. And it really hurt his feelings.

It's a poor carpenter that blames his tools.

DART!

(I'm hijacking this thread really quick because it strikes me as a flame fest anyways)


I'm a HUGE fan of yours! I'm a complete newbie who is attempting to learn enough to eventually be confident enough to fly online. Your tutorial videos have really helped me pick up the pace!

Your tutorial on how to attack AA is one of the only reasons I have been able to make it 6 missions in to a dynamic campaign! Thanks for all the work you put into those!

Edit: I try to give myself "a big smile" every time I pull off anything BTW.

Let me be clear then Dart (thanks for your comments). The FW and TA are messed up because their FM is considerably reduced. Regardless of what the spit or La7 can do.

They have been downgraded. Period.

Fly TA 152 H1 in combat against solid online foe in 4.10.1 and then 4.11.

Big difference.

And it is a shame too, cause the other 75% of patch 4.11 is golden with long requested features.

Dart, btw, can you use your Admin powers to fix the stickie on installing Ultra Pack, here in the IL2 section ? That is completely out of date.

BTW WhistlinggDeath... Are you Jay Hall? (Not trying to call you out... Just trying to figure out who wrote the dog fighting .pdf)

Yes, I am. But that is merely my pen name. You know rule number one, never reveal too much about yourself online (including your real name); most folks are fine and sane, but a few are truly batshit looney.

+1 ..

More fun

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29350

Got a phone interview set up for Friday with Glenn Holcomb. Went to school in Clay County, West Virginia. Entered Army Air Corps thru examination process for talented high school graduates. Attended OCS in Texas and flew B-17 bombers until late 1943. Retrained and started flying the P51 variants during the last half of 1944 and 45. Ended the war a captain, then got a college degree and flew for Delta Airlines until mandatory retirement age of 60, and currently lives just outside Medford, Oregon. His daughter tells me he is of sound mind and still golfs (although, slowly) at age 89.

Will post the interview here and the audio track at Mediafire when I finish.

That's fantastic! You're .pdf "How to Dog Fight" has also been instrumental in me learning where to start to get the confidence to fly online! I want to thank you so much for that material. It was well written, extremely informative, and gave so much insight to me.

Thanks for taking the time to write that. It sure has helped a newb like me along.

Welcome Pedro. When I wrote that guide, many said I was arrogant for even attempting such a project until I had years in the game. Glad it helped.

Well I am glad you decided to write it despite any naysayers. It really helped me out.

Is your guide available for free anywhere, or do I need to pay for a service to download it? I don't have problem with you asking for compensation for your work, but I wonder if that was your intention.

It's free, and very informative.

WD's Guide to Dog Fighting

Thank You very much.

You guys should check for the later Version 4 at Mission4Today.com. If you need more info or links, private message me, and I will help you out.

And we will try to get this thread back onto the business of debating the merits of 4.11 patch boom and zoom changes.

The debate will continue over at 1C I guess for many months, but I have to get back to research and trying to obtain tenure. JG27 Papa over there asked for some Ntrks, so I made a few (which you can easily reproduce in 4.11 yourself). First is the TA 152 H1 on the Crimea map at 1000m starting alt, with rad set to full open, and auto pitch, and then put her into a combat dive at full 110% power with WEP:

http://www.mediafire.com/?dzxqgfh1gbducwd

Overheat at the top of the first pass. Engine burnout after three quick boom and zoom loops.

Second is the hotter Okinawa map without auto rad, same conditions with overheat in about 10 seconds:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sy2wk0y2b2d71ca

I enjoy and really like most of 4.11 and welcome more accurate CEM, but I think heed also needs to be paid to correct modeling of the overheat. And IMHO, that has not happened yet. Some really glaring examples like the late Spits and the P51-Ds which used the same engine but perform vastly different in combat climb overheating. Of course, I have been accused of being a rubbish pilot, or only flying on airquake servers, etc....but when you look past the venom, the ntrks show an overheat model that just does not correspond to the comments I see in these period era aviation manuals. I do not see any evidence for actual planes in an overheat condition in one combat pass. And the FW and TA flight models have changed, with the TA suffering considerably.

Whether Team D, will take notice or not (or even cares), ... no idea, but I wish em well. I myself am not a fan of 4.11 for online play, but the patch is free, and it took hundreds of hours of collaborative effort to make, so I cant btch too much. I wish em well in whatever direction they continue to push IL2. As to the interview with Capt Holcomb, it will be put up at Mission4Today.com later this week. Signing off of this thread. S! Gents.

A few folks wanted exact historical documents to show/verify what the TA 152-H1 could do. Here are two excellent sources that reference captured Luftwaffe records:

http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Ta-152-Thomas-Hitchcock/dp/0914144537

http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Ta-152-Luftwaffes-High-Altitude/dp/0764308602

The Hitchcock book says the Ta 152-H1 could hit 598 kph sustained at sea level with the MW-50 boost for eight minutes and 58 seconds, before engine overheat damage began. (the Hitchcock book also shows copies of the Luftwaffe records from the flight trials) The Harmann book gives the level flight, sea level max speed at 609 kph with MW-50 and also lists 8 min and 58 seconds of boost without engine overheat at this speed. The Harmann book also lists the 598 kph figure but says that pilots in testing were able to optimize that for an extra 10 kph.

The Ta 152-H1 in Patch 4.11 can do max sustained of 530 kph without engine overheat, on the Crimea map with the quick mission builder (you can do faster but engine overheat will quickly come on).

Btw, both books give German aviation engineers opinion that the Ta 152 was probably the world's fastest piston fighter at the time of deployment (early 1945). The Ta could out dive (920 kph!!!, only out matched by the P47 in a dive) and out run any P51 variant in the European Theater and even faster than the Do 336 in level flight speed down low. If your in to aviation history, I suggest the books above, they are an interesting read.

I've Jeffrey Ethell's "TA 152" (1990 Monogram ISBN 0-914144-20-0) listing a "max combat speed" of 563 km/h at sea level. This from FW record dated 12 January 1945. I guess this figure was got w/o MW50.

Thanks for your insight into IL-2 characteristics.

S!
GB

Yes, Greybeard (hey, do you live at High Hrothgar ?, ... hehe) the Harmann book lists that as top speed without MW-50 boost.

Edit - Sorry, GB, meant "without"

What is "High Hrothgar"?

High Hrothgar is a reference from the game Skyrim, I do believe
Skyrim Wiki

Derek

Oh, I see.

My son also, who plays Skyrim, explained to me what is a "Greybeard". Sometimes would be able, like them, either to keep silent, so not to waste time and feelings, or to disintegrate with a single word pronounciated all annoyances.

GB