This is a preview of RAF No. 213 Squadron. This unit is from 1942-43 and flew from airfields in Egypt.

Thanks to Ray ROTTON50 for the round wheels and correct rear fuselage on this model that came from the original model and skin: Nico based on an original camo work by DeanH, based on Col Gibbon's HR Trop Hurricane 3Dz.

And to Peter Booth for research and suggestions on squadrons to paint from the Desert War.







IM

Hi Mike.

That last ones a bit strange. What happend? Did they use odd bits of Ju88 to make an engine cover??????

Beautiful work again Mike!!

Nice work Mike and I did notice Ray's hand in improving the model.

Well done to you both.

Cheers
David

There are quite a few illustrations of this machine. A photo is the Holy Grail of Hurricane historians.

Lovely work Mike

Thanks for all the time and effort

cheers,



Pobs

But why Mike?

Did he want to try and fool the Italian Pilots?

Honestly, I have no explanation for the camo. Perhaps the crew chief had an artistic bent.

Hi Guys,

The rather strange nose camo is probably down to me as I sent Mike a profile of it. Clearly non-standard field application - not sure how or why it came about but I have seen profiles of the same aircraft fom 3 different sources including an old "Profile Publications" which are usually pretty accurate, but no actual photo of it so far. Of course if the original source was wrong and the other 2 copied it then it may not be correct - difficult to tell. I will have to see if I can find an actual photo but for the moment I will assume it is genuine. If any of you find pics that either confirm of otherwise please let either me or IM know. It certainly seems to have grabbed your attention, which is not bad. And in answer to your question John, perhaps you are right - a couple of seconds uncertainty by the enemy could just save your life I suppose!

Cheers,

Pete

Thanks Pete.

Ralf, the IIC will need a FM.

Mike,
can I ask?
what makes the flight model different from the .303 version?

I do not try to be an ass, I just ask

Mike, isn't there already a IIc fm in the planes folder?
(slot 09fm)

AO

Hi Peter,
Interesting link below:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t45866.html

Well done Mike.

You must enjoy stirring the pot of #%&*$#!

Two things AO. The first is the PHurBex.pcx (the cannon) and the hard points on the model. The first wings Ray sent over don't have the hard points so they work for the .303 armed machines. But, since we can't have two or more different FMs flying from the same slot( yet) the planes need to have the same arms.

That's right Mike. that was the final part of the MS project. Admittedly more for WWI than WWII, where mixed flights were more common, Mike's mixed Hurricanes is just as valid, as would be P51 B' and D's together, different Mk's of Spitfire, and lots of different P38's!

Hi Guys,

Mike (Sandbagger) - as you say a very interesting link - perhaps this particular Hurri was intended to fool the Italians/Germans - who knows.

Aldo, I am no expert on FM but I think the following points are relevant. Firstly the guns and ammo have a certain weight and a 20mm cannon and shells weigh more than the equivalent Browning 0.303 mg and bullets so that has a small effect on the aircraft performance, particularly when you have 4 cannon in the Hurricane Mk IIc compared with 8 x 0.303 Brownings in the MkI and MkIIa and 12 in the MkIIb. The MkIIc is going to be a little bit slower and more sluggish though the other thing is that the engine was upgraded and more powerful so that counteracted the weight quite a bit, which is another thing the FM should allow for. In the tropical versions it gets even more complicated as to stop sand getting in to the air intake and ruining the engine various forms of filters were fitted. The Me 109 had a rather slim filter which probably had a limited effect on performance, but factory built Spitfires and Hurricanes had the very bulky Vokes filter under the nose which knocked at least 20mph of the top speed. To try and improve things a locally built "Aboukir" filter was often fitted which was a lot smaller and had far less detrimental effect. Again a good FM will model the changed performance.

Secondly, and far more important, if you are flying the model and try and shoot at an enemy aircraft, the FM determines how many guns you have, where they are, how much ammo you have, what your rate of fire and effective range is, and how much damage they can do. So if you are flying a Hurricane MkIa with 8 Brownings and find yourself behind a nice fat He 111, then if you have set max realism and have only 15 seconds worth of ammo and your aim is as bad as mine, you will probably need a 10 second burst at close range to shoot it down, whereas with a MkIIc with 4 cannon and rather less ammo you could blow it up with a short burst from greater range. And of course the FM determines what you see when the guns fire so you get 8, 12 or just 4 streams of tracer heading for the target, depending on which Mark you are flying.

Take an example. John (Col Gibbon) has been working on a model of the Handley Page Hampden for 3 years but unless somebody comes up with a decent FM for it, it will be at best inaccurate to use in EAW (the JU88 FM might work fairly well perhaps) and at worst a waste of time. The FM determines amongst other things the defensive guns and their field of fire, the range/speed at various altitudes, the overall performance in terms of speed and manoeuverability, the fuel and bomb load. That is how important FM are and it seems very few persons on the forum know how to make them fairly accurately.

Sorry it is a bit of a lecture but I hope that answers your question.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter.

I suppose I worked on the Hampden about a month, to get it where it is today. But having to build the wings distance models, damaged wings, etc, leaves me a bit cold.

If I did not have three children to look after, a house to keep clean, various illnesses, for which I take 9 tablets daily, which leave me in a state of sleepiness until around Midday, and my bad hands, I would have finished shed loads of models by now. My low output is of great distress to me, and just adds to my depression.

Peter,
Thank you for the detailed responce You also pointed me in the proper direction to research the subject.

Hey John,

I could probably take care of the wings for you. Want to send the files over?

OK Ray.

You just need a pair of wings, everything else is done, but there might be a bit of mapping to do.

Needless to say, my model is RS compliant, so you just need to add dummy elements to carry the wing HP's.

Edit:

The wings are done, just the wheels to do!

Hi Mike,
forgive me, I'm a little confused..........are you saying that the RAF No. 213 Squadron was a mixed squad
with 303's or cannons? It sounds like you were saying the wings sent to you didn't work for the 303's.
But I thought that IIc's only had 4 20mm cannon? I thought the versions that incorporated 2 gun types,
two 40mm Vickers S guns, and two .303 in. Browning machine guns, was the IID and IV?
Please feel free to slap me with the correct info.
Thanks,
AO

No, just the opposite, AO.

The original improved wings I sent Mike had no hardpoints to locate the cannon barrels so they wouldn't show up in the game even if the files were there. That means the first set would work for .303's but not for 20mm's.

The revised set has the hardpoints so if a modeler wants to make a .303 version he just deletes the file that corresponds to the 20mm barrels ( C.3dz I think ) and paints on some gun ports for the .303's. The game won't miss a beat if the file for the cannons is simply missing.

So does that mean that the current fm for the IIc in the planes folder
is good?
Thanks,
AO

We have the 2c in the Hurri slot and in the Hurri and in the Tempest slot.

All planes are modeled without sand filter, but realy, all sides had such disadvantages. The 109F/G could dissable the sand filter once they was in the air, afaik this feature seldom got used, cause even in several thousand meters altitude there was the ugly sand dust.

The biggest disadvantage of the sandfilter wasnt its drag, but the reduced engine power due to the bad influence to the air intake.

Even with dissabled sand filter the ram air effect got disturnbed much on the 109.

Greetings,

Knegel

AO, Ray repeated what I had tried to say. That was the first set of wings he sent to me were for Hurricane I and machines that were armed with .303's. The BOB skins etc already have the .303's painted in so those 3dz's could be cloned and written over the original ones. The cannon armed IIc's needed the hard points for the cannon attachments added. So in effect we now have round wheels etc for Hurricane I's and II's. It is the B3dz and tpc that make the 20mms.

What we don't have yet is the ability to have different FM's within a squadron. AS we all know, the average unit flew with mixed Marks through out the war. B-17 E and F, F and G and on and so forth

Nuff said.

Hi Guys,

To add to what IM has correctly said, I suggested that when any Squadron arrived in Theatre they would have a full complement of what was then the current model. For some of the Desert Hurri Squadrons they started of with either Ia or IIa ( 8 mg) and some even had IIb (12 mg) and as time went by aquired replacements. Yes 213 had IIc but I doubt they got a whole Squadron at once, particularly if they were being flown in on the Takoradi route. No doubt they would eventually have a full compliment, but to me it seems likely that they had a mix of models for some time. As to the IId these were produced in small numbers and I doubt any Squadron was fully equipped with them. Certainly the first user of the IId, 6 Squadron, only had about 6 or 7 when it took part in the attack at Bir Hacheim, the rest no doubt being IIc.

Unfortunately, when I recently asked on the Forum if it was possible to use different marks in one set I was told, as I expected, that all the aircraft had to have the same FM, so the question is rather academic.

Cheers,

Peter

8 skins are finished 8 more to go...

Here is the third section...









I've painted the newer Serials as having a darker, less sunfaded and worn shade of Mid Stone...

And Ray's round wheels...

Here is the 4th and final flight...











the 8-bit Glide ready conversion is up next...

Those hurris are awesome, nice work

Cheers

Looks like i should start to workout plane sets for DAW, eh?

Great work!

I'll be filling in the plane set for DAW in the coming year if all goes well. So your work will be needed. I just need to pull out a slot list for DAW so the skins match.

Might as well put a DAW plug in now.

Don't forget, there's a set of hi-res Beaufighters available on my page.

Heck there's even a desert version that might not need much attention. Oh and before you keel over thinking I did that skin, which is pretty good, I cribbed it from a CFS Beaufighter.

Ah!, shameless self promotion.

Definately a man I can relate to.

And rember folks, you can purchase Mike and Ray's Jams and Jellys in the lobby as you exit the building...

Hi Guys,

Whilst researching Desert Spits I found that the ones used in Malta had some very curious colour schemes, which I have passed on to Mike. Whilst it seems the Hurris retained the Dark Earth/Middle Stone uppers with either Azure Blue of Sky Blue unders, it was soon found that it was too light for the Spits, given that most of the combat took place over the sea. Soon after the first Spits arrived, according to the Osprey book on Malta Spitfire Aces, it was decided to paint the uppers in various dark grey/dark blue schemes.

The Spits delivered on the USS Wasp were painted en route in what is described as US Navy Dark Blue/Grey which apparently faded to a lighter shade pretty fast, whilst those painted at Gibraltar before dispatch, or on Malta itself had various shades of Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Med Blue or Light Med Blue uppers. Most had Sky Blue unders though some did have the darker Azure Blue. To make matters even more complicated, when paint was short on the island it was mixed into various Blue/Grey shades and sometimes the paint was so thin that the original desert scheme showed through, particularly on the nose and tail - a painters delight I guess.

Perhaps if Mike has the time he will be able to do a set of MkVB for the Malta scenario, which should prove very interesting.



I have copied the colours page from my RAF Museum book on WWII colour schemes which I believe to be pretty accurate, though it will no doubt lose something in transferring to this mail.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi guys, there is an issue with the wings in Glide mode so, the 8-bit version is on hold until this gets unkinked. Hopefully it will be a quick fix.

Hi Mike.

Those wing tip glitches are not on my original model, so I suggest you roll back to these wings for Glide.

Col. the original model suffers from square wheel syndrome and wingtips . It works fine in D3D and 24-bit with the rounded edges. I'd like to make it work in glide. otherwise, a roll back will be done. If you send me the instructions I'll try to do it myself. Thanks, IM.

Hi Mike.

This is my original MkIIC Hurricane, as displayed in Glide.



Not as refined as the wing you have, but it works in Glide.

I know that Col. I've already looked at it and tested it. I just wanted to use the better version if possible.

Hi Mike.

I'm sorry to say this, but I'm not too happy to be cornered into fixing something I did not make. My Hurricane models are very old and a total bodge, but I tried to make them work for Glide. I've got enough things to do, without dropping everything again to repair models, when in all truth, it's easier to start again and build from scratch. I'm hoping my post on Glide issues will help get these problems fixed.

Since we are self promoting, I guess I can be my typical arse

Col.
I posted when we created 24bit that if someone would take the time to learn glide we could eliminate the need for seperate bmps. None bothered, and IM has done twice the work due to the performance issues in D3D and graphics issues of glide have being worked around.

Your post reads like Mike has not pulled his share. That is not true. Mike has done double duty and never used an excuse.

IM.
The quality of your work is only surpassed by your dedication!

I never thought I'd kick over a hornets nest with this glitch.

Now for the update.

Ray's removal of the -32768 on the F part of the tips' 3dz has solved the problem. We have rounded wingtips in the Glide version now.










Col. I turned to you for the solution because you know the most about 3dz modeling. The notes you put in you glide post provided the key to the solution of the problem.

My work is built upon the labors of those that have gone before me and I am using that knowledge to make the skins for the new models the both you (Col. Gibbon) and Ray build as well as the existing models.

We don't need to point and accuse each other here. We need to all work together. The 3dz models benefit from the cooperation of everyone who can do the job. THank you all for your efforts.

I just paint the models we have and try to do the best I can with the canvas I'm provided.


Finally, I'll test the skins for a bit more and post them by weeks end. I'm having an out patient procedure mid-week and will be out of sorts for a few days.

Hi Guys.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, but I'd rather spend my time showing you guys how to approach things, rather than lean on me as a fall back, to fix things.

It's really great Ray has found out how to fix these errors.

I'm always eager to help, but I really can't get involved in complicated projects, as I have so little time after trying to keep the house up to standard, and looking after the kids, EAW time is very limited.

So please forgive my outburst.

Coulda fixed the problem a long time ago but the info about the -32768 issue was never brought up until this post.

Since we are on the subject of the -32768 (F) normal in Glide stuff...


I had shelved my No.625 Lancaster squadron in glide /8-bit because of the strangeness that the mode caused...





note the wings and fuselage bits...

after changing the F normal from the -32768 setting that most of the elements had we get this...





I still have to go through the rest of the 3dz's to remove the -32768 settings and then we should have a good version for the Glide crowd!

Isn't it amazing what a little post can uncover?

Hi Mike.

What your seeing in Glide, is the over use of the -32768 command. You need to be careful though, because these models hide hundreds of RS, and Normals errors, because of the way the wire frame has been bent and twisted. I'm not sure how the Lancaster was built, but I suspect the model started life as the B17. I would suggest you try making a copy of your 3dz your working on and re calculating the Normals. Then when you remove a -32768, replace it with the correct Normal. Do these bad elements only, because if you do the whole model, you will really mess it up. The piggyback elements will start to flicker, and show holes at certain angles, if you remove every -32768. Go easy Mike, It's like walking across a minefield!.

Hi Guys,

Ye Gods, am I glad I only do research and the odd well intentioned moan - as Col Gibbon says a veritable minefield, or to the uninitiated like me more of a Black Hole. It makes me glad I was not mad enough to get involved in Modelling or skinning, and yes John, it must be ruddy hard work with a young family so I for one don't mind the odd mild outburst - athough I am supposed to be the grumpy old man! The cold weather is playing havoc with my hands so Lord knows how you are - you have my heartfelt sympathy.

Cheers,

Pete

Dito here too, and add knees and ankles to the list.

BTW. Was the extra info on the Malta Spits of interest?

Hi John,

Knees as well - due to go in for an exploratory op last Friday with a view to a knee replacement but guess what - NHS of course so cancelled. Now due March. At least my ankles are OK (so far). It's no fun getting old is it? And yes, the Malta Spits were good but we need somebody to put them in the scenario/campaign I guess (don't have that on my computer at the moment but as I recall no blue/gray Spits included - could be wrong of course). I see Ray is looking at DAW and no doubt IM will get involved. Well we are both here for the reasearch if nothing else.

Look after yourself and the kids. I know we at times (however unintentially demanding) individuals on the Forum can be a pain, but family comes first as you and I appreciate.

Pete

No. 2123 Squadron has been sent to Talley-Ho and will be adapted for DAW too.

Hi Mike,

Good work as usual!

A Hurri IIb (12 MG´s) could be interesting as well, for this a Hurri Ia 3dz would do the job, maybe we have a desert Hurri 1a.


Greetings,

Knegel

I always liked the tank buster Hurricane, for a bit of convoy work.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix5xN8hlGLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIx_pMwjGyE

I think Mike has the relevant Squadrons/Codes/Serials for IId and possibly IIb if he has the time and we have the right models/FM. 12 Mg could make a fair old mess of soft skinned vehicles and men, and the IId was quite effective against armour, but they did take heavy losses apparently - slow and low.

Pete

thanks for your upgrade and squadron set of this
ripper skin IM it looks an absolute treat...
you've now got me interested in north africa
again...

for personal use only, i've replaced the combination
disc prop with the old style feathered blade version
(my favorite) and added the cylinder block bulges
above the exhaust outlets.

big ta
ade

Hi,

could someone check the hardpoints in the HR Hurri model??

On my end they dont work in the IIc, neighter in the HR IIb and d.

Greetings,

Knegel

Looking forward to the 625 Lancs



Jel

If no one else does it I'll fix the hardpoints on the Hurricane while setting up the new DAW plane set.

Very good.

Just fix it, reslot the skins if needed and send them over, i will create the fitting FM folders and then offer the DAW Planes folder update.

Of course we also should have the fitting DAW Hangerscreens.

oh yes,

once the ready packed skins and FM´s are in the planes folder, we can create the wanted plane sets on the fly.

Those are some beautiful Hurris, Mike - not to mention the Lancaster

To borrow a phrase from Col. Gibbon, that Lanc is "a dog's breakfast" in Glide mode. It is just fine in D3D but Glide has about 25 strange element renderings, maybe more.

Just so we have one decent rendering WWII Bi-plane, I've looked at another Dogs Breakfast, and I think I can make quite a decent tasty main course from it. If it works out OK, I should be able to get bit of Faith, Hope and Charity too.

Oh Ray, would you like to polish off my P40?

the HR P40B/C would be good after sooooo...long now

tuma's gladiator is a great model, if the wings rs flaws
can be fixed..

Well, I could certainly use the Gladiator for the new DAW set.


John, What's left on the P-40?

Not very much, Ray. I think a bit of mapping and a few action codes. You'll need to add piggybacks for the 1/2 flap positions, and maybe a dead pilot.

Really not much at all, but I find it really hard to finish a model, as I'm always finding things to do.

It must be linked to my depression.

Sounds like it wouldn't take too much effort. Send me the files.

I'm finishing up an Re2000 for DAW and helping Mike with a few little B-26 issues.

After that I'm starting the TMOD and target upgrade for DAW but that project will take a couple of months.

ray

as with most of tuma's biplanes one of the most
noticeable 3dz flaws is the undercarriage disappearing
into the lower wings.

Needs a judicious application of piggybacks I'd say.

Hi Ray.

It's piggybacked to death! Not to mention almost every element has a -32768 as a Normal!!

I've so far fixed the tail, and the lower wings, but I will have to do some serious work to the F.3dz to make it work correctly.

The problem with all the Bi-planes is they all came from monoplanes, with no upper wing. The top surface of the lower wing became the top of the upper wing, with the lower upper, being a piggyback of the upper wing.

With me so far?

I've cleaned up the F.3dz but I'll now remove the engine, and add that to the prop. then I'll have enough elements to fix the F.3dz I'm trying to avoid re mapping, but at the moment I'm going to have big problems with the wings. The problem is the areas of damage textures, which normally would be for the upper wing. I might have to sacrifice the damage textures to hake the model correctly.