I have been tinkering with the response curves in my game and I find that try as I might I cannot get the D.VII to roll properly, it is slow and once the aircraft reaches inverted will more often than not stop rolling altogether, at first I thought it was my joystick but my father has the game and the same joystick and it seems to be a problem for him as well. Has anyone else experienced this?

Yes, the D.VII has a poor roll rate. Give it as much (also ineffective) rudder as you can to help it around.

In reality the D.VII had the highest Roll rate of any of it's contemporaries, The German Air Service had to destroy all of them after the war as part of the Versailles Treaty. IIRC it was better a few patches ago now most of the planes lose Aileron effectiveness as soon as the wings pass 90 degrees except for the Pfalz DIII, I can barely get a decent roll out of any of them. I have seen plenty of Large Scale R/C WWI planes and during Contests they all do Military Aerobatics and they are able to do all of them just fine, and before anyone tries to correct me yes, Scale R/C planes are comparative to their RL counterparts, same airfoils built on scale plans.



These are Proctor Kits DVII's which are considered museum quality and at the beginning you'll see a very smooth axial roll without any hesitation.
And just to be fair I'm not expecting Pitts Special roll rates, a slow roll is better than no roll, at low speed any airplane will roll poorly but under optimum flight speed it should roll smoothly.

So you are saying the roll response for all the aircraft in RoF (except the Pfalz DIII) has recently changed and is now fairly slow/unresponsive?

FM revisions were done most recently for the D.VII, the N.28, the N.11 and the SE5a. The change for the D.VII was really just to change the elevator movement to have a symmetric range of motion both up and down. This had the effect of greatly reducing the adverse yaw it use to suffer from.

I've been flying the St. Mihiel campaign, which involves flying the D.VII and the N.28 in the earlier missions. I did not notice any roll rate issues with either plane. They roll fine.

I don't know how to reconcile that with what you are reporting.

Well it certainly seems different so I actually thought that my JS was the problem but it shows no loss of movement on any axis or the response curve was somehow reduced but neither seems to be the case. If I create a quick mission and give myself a lot of altitude I can get one or two good rolls and then it starts getting really sluggish, rolling with torque is better but it seems like once inverted it wont go any further.

It doesn't really work that way.
That's why smaller scale model AC fly around like a House fly, and you don't get realistic behavior until the scale get's much larger.

It doesn't really work that way.
That's why smaller scale model AC fly around like a House fly, and you don't get realistic (full scale) behavior until the scale get's much larger.

Yes, thanks.

Better re-check your facts.

Nieuport 17, not the Nieuport 28.

They had to destroy them all as punishment for bombing Pearl Harbor.

The quality of the Fokker D-VII aircraft was acknowledged by the terms of the Versailles Treaty. Article IV stated that all these German planes had to be handed over to the Allies as weapons of war. {edit} well, I admit now that there is no specific mention of the DVII in Article 4 maybe this was some propaganda as I have actually read it in print and my Dad has said the same thing. Germany did have to dismantle their Air Force
After the war Anton Fokker moved to Holland and took with him 400 engines and the dismantled parts of 120 aircraft from the Fokker Flugzeug-Werke company. In the 1920s the Fokker D-VII became the mainstay of the Dutch air force. So perhaps he himself started this rumor to convince the Dutch.
My Father had the Smithsonian Publication "Cross and Cockade" for many years and there were pictures of a veritable forest of DVII fuselages standing on their firewalls waiting to be scrapped after the war. So yes they were to be handed over and destroyed. That a number of them were spirited away does not change that fact. But so too were all their military materiel.
The D.VII was the best all around fighter in the German Air Service and you can find anecdotal evidence to support this as well as NACA studies as to its capabilities as a modern design which had a direct influence on aircraft design into the 1930's. I don't expect it to roll like a modern aerobatic aircraft but when seeing LARGE scale (80"span or greater) models built to exact dimensions (Museum Scale) they do indeed roll very nicely, they aren't 109's but they don't roll over and die either. I have also seen things on the internet that say it was less than stellar but nothing in regards to actual aircraft. I'm sure that any restored Aircraft would be treated with the utmost care and aerobatics would be limited but it was known for having a roll rate that was better than some of its contemporaries.

The bad thing about the internet is that you are almost certain to find "facts" to support anything, unfortunately things I read before there was an Internet are hard to verify. I know you can build semi-scale P-51's to a plan that are made to be as easy as a Piper Cub to fly and I have seen Full scale Aerobatic (clipped winged) Piper Cubs that did things that are just wrong in a Cub so I just think that the D.VII is not quite right from all that I have read and considering modern Aerial Combat started with these planes it should be able to manage a roll.

http://combatace.com/topic/44415-flying-the-old-planes-part-7-fokker-dvii/

Extract from "Flying The Old Planes" by Frank Tallman.

Our original Fokker D.VII had stayed in storage following the movie 'Hell’s Angels', and was located at the same time as our original SPAD VII – and both were found in nearly flyable condition!

“What a sweetheart”: This is my Number one thought every time the candy-stripped Fokker breaks ground. By any pilot’s standards it is a delightful, exciting aeroplane to fly. Although I often do not have a chance to fly it, there is always a brand new excitement each time I get airborne in it.

The D.VII is the greatest of Fokker’s WWI designs, and for reliability, strength and smooth, easy flight characteristics, it was arguably equalled by no other aircraft in either the Imperial German Air Service or the combined Allied air forces. It is without doubt the easiest World War One aircraft I have ever flown. It fills one with immediate confidence, and has no vices worth mentioning.

The D.VII was one of some twenty odd Fokker designs made in Germany and under licence in Austria and Hungary in WWI. But because of his financially large aircraft and gun contracts and his Dutch nationality, Fokker was looked upon with ill-disguised jealousy by other German aircraft manufacturers. Background machinations and politics, the failure of the DR.1 to win large production contracts as well as the growth of such firms as Roland, Pfalz, Albatross and others had reduced Fokker by 1918 almost to the role of a subcontractor. When the Johannisthal fighter trials came up in January 1918 the D.VII, which was in its early developmental stage, was flown to the base by Fokker himself. On the trip to Johannisthal he found directional control poor, and against every military and trial regulation he hired outside welders and spliced in several more feet of fuselage the night before the trials began. The D.VII was an instant success. It led every flight category and was put immediately into quantity production. Now the German firms that had given Fokker such a hard time suddenly found the roles reversed, with their factories being pushed into producing the D.VII instead of their own aircraft.

Unfortunately, in our D.VII we had a 180-hp Hispano Suiza for power instead of the regulation Mercedes. The change goes back many years to “Men with Wings”; a picture Paul Mantz did using the Fokker D.VII. By that year (1937) the WWI Mercedes was beginning to show definite signs of age, and because Hisso’s were readily available, one was used with no basic structural changes to the aircraft.

As you walk out to the D,VII it impresses you as being larger than it actually is. Possibly that’s due to it’s coffin like nose and because of the thick high-lift wings. The pre-flight inspection is simpler by far with the D.VII than with any other Allied or German aircraft because of the lack of bracing wires. Both wings are fully cantilevered, and the outer N struts were added only as a sop to the German pilots, for these struts serve no structural purpose.

Apart from the engine, the gear will stand a look. Tightness of the streamlined landing gear is important, as is the condition of the shock cord. The trailing edges of the wings, because they are of wire, sometimes work through the fabric. This must be checked, as well as the integrity of tail bolts and the structure of the tail.

Like all German aircraft the first step up is along one. Once settled in the cockpit with a couple of Spandaus six inches from your moustache, you realise this is a war plane, and in case of accident and no shoulder straps, you might very easily, and permanently, shift your appearance.

In taking off, the tail comes up immediately, with complete rudder control. We were airborne in 383 feet. What a completely responsive aeroplane! The ailerons are sheer delight, and the climb is a revelation after flying other Allied and German aircraft of WWI vintage.

Levelling out at 3,000 feet, the D.VII indicates 110 mph, and trues out at 118mph. Stalls are straightforward and hang on until 49 mph on the clock and then fall straight ahead. Loops cover about 800 feet of sky, and when started at 120 mph carry through beautifully, with no tendency to fall out at the top. Strangely, to the vertical point, the ailerons of the D.VII are all anyone could ask for. Following through the inverted phase, the roll slows down. A full slow roll is on the order of nine seconds. But make no mistake; this aircraft is not a slouch. If you want to hustle through rolls it will whip from side to side faster than almost any other WWI aircraft. Changes of direction, either vertically or horizontally, as performed with ease.

Spins of one turn are smooth and precise in either direction. And yes, the Fokker will hang vertically on its prop for several seconds before a gentle tail slide initiates. Once that occurs a light tap of rudder and the Fokker flips over to direction you want without the slightest hiccup. Wingovers are a real joy, as are vertical banks. This aircraft is solid as a rock in all manoeuvres.

Landings with the D.VII as with many other aircraft of that period, are much different than with their WWII counterparts. As you come in on your grass or dirt strip, you’ll find the D.VII moving quite a bit faster than you anticipated and touching three points hot and skittish at about 55 mph. The only directional control is throttle, and a real blast over the rudder is necessary to stop any turning on landing.

It’s said that the Fokker D.VII can make the most mediocre pilot look good, and a good pilot great. Given it is such a vice-free aeroplane to fly it’s easily understandable why it was so well thought of by the Germans, and feared so much by the Allies.

===========================================================================

STATS: From "German Aircraft Of The First World War" by Peter Gray and Owen Thetford; and "Fighter Aircraft Of The 1914 - 1918 War" by W.M. Lamberton and E.F. Cheesman.


Engine: 180 hp Mercedes D III
Empty Weight: 700kg (1,540 lb)
Loaded Weight: kg (1,936 lb)
Max Speed:
186 km/h (116 mph) @ 1,000m (3,280 feet)
182 km/h (114 mph) @ 2,000m (6,560 Feet)
175 km/h (109 mph) @ 3,000m (9,843 feet)
165 km/h (103 mph) @ 4,000m (13,124 feet)
152 km/h (95 mph) @ 5,000m (16,405 feet)
Climb:
3.30 minutes to 1,000m (3,280 feet)
6.48 minutes to 2,000m (6,560 Feet)
12.0 minutes to 3,000m (9,843 feet)
18.30 minutes to 4,000m (13,124 feet)
31.30 minutes to 5,000m (16,405 feet)
Ceiling: 5,974m (19,600 feet)
Endurance: 2 hours
Armament: Two 7.92mm Spandau LMG 08/15
No’s Built: Approximately 1,700


Engine: 185 hp B.M.W. III
Empty Weight: 700kg (1,540 lb)
Loaded Weight: kg (1,993 lb)
Max Speed:
193 km/h (120 mph) @ 1,000m (3,280 feet)
188 km/h (117 mph) @ 2,000m (6,560 Feet)
183 km/h (114 mph) @ 3,000m (9,843 feet)
175 km/h (109 mph) @ 4,000m (13,124 feet)
168km/h (105 mph) @ 5,000m (16,405 feet)
Climb:
2.50 minutes to 1,000m (3,280 Feet)
8.30 minutes to 3,000m (9,843 feet)
11.40 minutes to 4,000m (13,124 feet)
16.0 minutes to 5,000m (16,405 feet)
21.15 minutes to 6,000m (19,685 feet)
Ceiling: 6,979m (22,900 feet)
Endurance: 2 hours
Armament: Two 7.92mm Spandau LMG 08/15
No’s Built: Approximately 1,700

Speed wise the BMW powered DVII has a slight advantage at all altitudes. But the big difference is in climb rate. Here the BMW engine has a significant advantage over the Mercedes.

The Germans were required to hand over all D.VIIs to the Allies as part of the surrender terms, not to destroy them all. Yes, Fokker smuggled a number of airframes and parts with him back to Holland, but that's not the same as destroying all the then-existing D.VIIs. That, and a big reason why they were to be handed over was so that their construction details could be analyzed - not so they could simply be piled into a big scrap heap.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/firstworldwar/transcripts/aftermath/armistice_terms.htm

You are correct in that they wanted to analyze them, this much is true. I misspoke and repeated things I have heard and read, and that tragically from an aviation point of view many were destroyed. I have the movie "Hell's Angels" which has an amazing number of WWI planes of different types and many of these were crashed for the camera as well. While I was looking for information on the D.VII I found many conflicting "opinions" and the mention of how they were feared and thus confiscated and destroyed so as I said you hear these things and before you know it myth and legends become fact and here we are in a forum trying to separate it but, as I posted the excerpt from Frank Tallman who I would have to say was an expert his account of the aircraft tells that it was a good solid aircraft with no bad vices and was able to perform rolls slow or fast and the in game DVII is not IMO able to reflect this fact.
When I was young I met the late Cole Palen at Rhinebeck Airdrome and saw the DVII, Dr.I, I sat in the N.28 had my picture taken in it and unfortunately that is long gone or I'd find a way to put it up here. I have always loved Early Aviation and in looking up some of this I found that Cross and Cockade Journal was actually started by Mel Torme` a small fact I was unaware of that he was a huge WWI aircraft aficionado and boy how I wish those magazines were still around, (my mother threw them out). Today I could have used them to give to the RoF development team because they had a wealth of information that would have been priceless.

From this thread: http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=351&t=26617&start=20

"The flying qualities of this aeroplane are exceptionally good. In manoeuvring, it responds easily and rapidly, all the control surfaces being balanced and very effective."

-Test pilot Louis P Moriarty

Goodness, I need to proofread better! That's two mistakes in one post.

On the topic of the Fokker DVII, I have always been fascinated by watching the dogfight scenes in Howard Hughes' "Hell's Angles", which he bought and used real DVII's (so I guess they weren't all destroyed...), SE5's, and if you look closely, even some Nieuports.

Watch this clip featuring real WWI a/c in action, interspersed with occasional models (easy to spot). I think it has been edited by the OP to pull all the in-air scenes together. To me it plays just like RoF plays, amazingly so right down to the opponent diving away at the 3 minute mark . But seriously, I do not perceive any problems with the DVII maneuverability compared to other a/c, or these real DVII's.

The in-game D7 just doesn't roll the way it should, it wallows and seems to lose aileron effectiveness when it becomes inverted. Granted you should enter any maneuver with energy but I've seen this video here and it seems like the D7 was able to fly at very slow speeds and still have manueverability


Now granted most of the rolls are half rolls and barrel rolls the loops aren't perfectly straight on the exits but it's an old airplane he has too much tied up in it to throw it about but you see it doesn't seem to have any problem low and slow. At about 5:55 in the vid he performs a half loop rolls out and kicks a large amount of rudder to bring it around as I would expect, he is also pushing a noticeable amount of down elevator on his passes over the field to maintain level altitude at speed so obviously it wants to climb which it should because of lift generated by the thick airfoil.

I didn't see him do anything in that video that we can't do in RoF with the D.VII. I just fired up the game to try some of those maneuvers and was able to do so w/o issues. I will say, though, that the D.VII does not have sufficient aileron authority to do rolls and such all by themselves. Not if you want to roll reasonably quickly. You need to add in rudder. But that has been the case with all of these WW1 aircraft.

And you are correct, but as I said he probably doesn't push the plane very hard and at no point in that video does he get high enough to bail out so he has plenty of confidence in the aircraft to do what he is doing, however to point to what Tallman said about it
"Levelling out at 3,000 feet, the D.VII indicates 110 mph, and trues out at 118mph. Stalls are straightforward and hang on until 49 mph on the clock and then fall straight ahead. Loops cover about 800 feet of sky, and when started at 120 mph carry through beautifully, with no tendency to fall out at the top. Strangely, to the vertical point, the ailerons of the D.VII are all anyone could ask for. Following through the inverted phase, the roll slows down. A full slow roll is on the order of nine seconds. But make no mistake; this aircraft is not a slouch. If you want to hustle through rolls it will whip from side to side faster than almost any other WWI aircraft. Changes of direction, either vertically or horizontally, as performed with ease." this doesn't describe, or at least as I perceive it, the DVII we have unless this is the "F" model then I guess I have to buy it to find out. I don't see why Tallman would exaggerate, if that were the case so what am I doing wrong if the plane is correct, having sufficient airspeed I should be able to initiate an aileron roll while giving it Elevator and Rudder input to both assist and to maintain directional stability. For me it seems to quit rolling once inverted and fall out.

I think that is the point of this thread. Early in the war one banked with rudder and used ailerons for fine tuning. That remained more or less true throughout the war - of course becoming less the case as aircraft improved. One of the D.VII's defining characteristics was its aileron response. I have heard it said that the D.VII was the first plane to truly achieve modern levels of response from aileron input alone.

Don't forget the the air itself isn't scaled down so they are not exactly the same, as far as I know

Yes, except maybe the rocking of the wings the Fokker DVII does at 0:40 ?

Wow, look at those Spandaus vibrate and bend as he fires! Were those authentic guns?

You do know that the physics are completely different at those scales? You could make a perfect replica and it would fly completely differently due to the change in air-pressure/surface area. This is ignoring the fact that the model kits have actuators rather than human limbs powering the controls, excessive thrust/weight ratios etc. etc.

Well, for the most part the machine guns are mounted to the airframe at the butt or receiver end which leaves the barrels unsupported. Depending on the plane,some of the guns did have support out near the muzzle.

These guns don't have any form of muzzle brake and if you've ever fired a 30 caliber machinegun, they jump around alot! What you see mounted on the ends of the barrels are flash hiders, NOT muzzle brakes. These guns where lightened to save weight for mounting on aircraft and that'll make 'em jump around even more! I'd imagine that as lightly constructed as these planes are, they had a pretty strong shake when the guns fired.

Think back to the cockpit sequences of the pilots firing their guns in "The Blue Max"...looked EXACTLY the same--based on the scene filmed. Sometimes they use "gas" guns that aren't "real" so they get the fire at the muzzle but no gun or camera shake.

My guess is, since Howard Hughes was a stickler for detail (!), that those real DVII's were firing blanks. Blanks still kick.

Yes, it is quite enlightening to see the guns recoil -- puts bullet 'dispersion' into some kind of focus, eh?
Now why do others bury their heads when the topic of dispersion comes up???