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#3490651 - 01/09/12 11:06 AM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: flyboy77]
swampthng Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 1133
Originally Posted By: flyboy77
I don't think people are understanding the point behind ms and flight.MS has already said there are levels of game play. This said I would assume that level 1 would be easy and the higher the level the more it would need to play it, like the highest level would include click-able switches and realistic flight controls.But this is what all the companies are doing today.A sample of this is DCS Black shark. It caters to both novice and hardcore playing.Even BF3 has a softcore and hardcore mode.

But at the end we get the core game for free and from there can make better judgment.



Absolutely none of what you say about "levels" is in the game nor is there any evidence of the framework to support it. The options regarding flight realism even are laughable, there's like one checkbox for realistic or arcade and another for prop effects which doesn't seem to do anything. You really need to think xbox game here, and i'm not exaggerating at all. You need to go over to avsim and read what some addon developers for FSX are saying about their "flight" experience. Yeah they have an axe to grind to some extent since flight is shutting them out, but the stories from two different companies are almost identical. If you want a high level sim that's realistic in the vein of FSX and the entire history of the microsoft flight sims, this then is not the game you are looking for as this is a cash shop front end with some arcade planes and some goofy arcade challenges.

Who knows this game might be a huge hit as PC flight sims are basically long sine dead and no one wants to play them anymore except us few die hards, but this game doesn't remotely live up to it's history and microsoft should be ashamed.

Basically if you thought pilotwings on the super nintendo was the best flight sim ever, then this is right up your alley. If your looking for something that could be a successor to FSX, then this is NOT it.


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#3490767 - 01/09/12 01:09 PM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: AggressorBLUE]
flyboy77 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Fort Worth,Texas
Originally Posted By: AggressorBLUE
Originally Posted By: flyboy77
I have been reading threads and posts about ms flight from the announcement on the release date. All I keep reading is from Dev's. that produce addon stuff for FSX. Each one is concerned (and knows)that flight will take away from there buying folks.So yes these Dev's. are going to knock the flight product. What gets me,is that these Dev's that produce addons for FSX won't build there own product to keep there funding going.



I very much doubt that they are really worried about all of their loyal customers ditching them for Flight. I'm sure MS will fail to resist the temptation to over-charge for POS add-ons in a market without competition. Will they get millions of DL's? Sure, the price is right for the base Flight software. Will they sell millions of dollars in add-ons? Probably not.

Most of those devs are upset because MS called them during Flight's Alpha,and shooed them away when they realized they could eat their lunch instead. In short: MS want's not just a slice, but ALL of the third party content pie, and killed the goose laying the golden egg to get it.

Also, according to a post from an Orbx dev, there's no sense in starting over, the FSX engine apparently is the best of it's type ever built. The reason it performs (relatively) poorly is because it was never shown the love it deserved. IIRC, they post said that Orbx had done the math, and it would require millions in start up cash to begin from scratch on a competing platform. With LM in a position to possibly go retail with Prepar3d anyway, why risk it?


I understand what you are saying,about MS wanting all the money. But honestly MS (I'm no MS fan)has spent a large amout of money and time on a game they produced. In all honestly I think MS was very generous with FSX in the past,letting the 3rd party people make millions off a game MS created. I have read where MS wanted a "cut" in the 3rd party addon market,but the 3rd party market was greedy and said no.
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#3490785 - 01/09/12 01:30 PM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: swampthng]
flyboy77 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Fort Worth,Texas
Originally Posted By: swampthng
Originally Posted By: flyboy77
I don't think people are understanding the point behind ms and flight.MS has already said there are levels of game play. This said I would assume that level 1 would be easy and the higher the level the more it would need to play it, like the highest level would include click-able switches and realistic flight controls.But this is what all the companies are doing today.A sample of this is DCS Black shark. It caters to both novice and hardcore playing.Even BF3 has a softcore and hardcore mode.

But at the end we get the core game for free and from there can make better judgment.



Absolutely none of what you say about "levels" is in the game nor is there any evidence of the framework to support it. The options regarding flight realism even are laughable, there's like one checkbox for realistic or arcade and another for prop effects which doesn't seem to do anything. You really need to think xbox game here, and i'm not exaggerating at all. You need to go over to avsim and read what some addon developers for FSX are saying about their "flight" experience. Yeah they have an axe to grind to some extent since flight is shutting them out, but the stories from two different companies are almost identical. If you want a high level sim that's realistic in the vein of FSX and the entire history of the microsoft flight sims, this then is not the game you are looking for as this is a cash shop front end with some arcade planes and some goofy arcade challenges.

Who knows this game might be a huge hit as PC flight sims are basically long sine dead and no one wants to play them anymore except us few die hards, but this game doesn't remotely live up to it's history and microsoft should be ashamed.

Basically if you thought pilotwings on the super nintendo was the best flight sim ever, then this is right up your alley. If your looking for something that could be a successor to FSX, then this is NOT it.


I have not yet played the beta yet (on the list).Most can't really even say whats going on with the game unless they break NDA rules. I have been reading about "flight"from pretty much all the flight sim forums. As I have said the biggest complaints were from Dev's.
I'm not bashing the Devs..I support them with large amounts of money spent on there addon products. But why criticize MS and there product just because you can't sell addons for it.
People and company's criticize,and even bash others products for the sole purpose to keep the consumer from buying them. Very similar to politicians "mudslinging" tactics.
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#3490820 - 01/09/12 02:03 PM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: flyboy77]
kludger Offline
Admitted Optimist
Hotshot

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 5200
Loc: Seattle,USA
Originally Posted By: flyboy77

I understand what you are saying,about MS wanting all the money. But honestly MS (I'm no MS fan)has spent a large amout of money and time on a game they produced. In all honestly I think MS was very generous with FSX in the past,letting the 3rd party people make millions off a game MS created. I have read where MS wanted a "cut" in the 3rd party addon market,but the 3rd party market was greedy and said no.


MS created the 3rd party SDK with the specific purpose of opening it up to 3rd party developers and they did not include any sort of revenue sharing license agreement thinking that the 3rd party products would sell more copies of FSX, and I suspect they have indeed made a ton of money selling copies of FSX that would otherwise not have been sold if people were stuck with the simple aircraft and scenery included.

The freeware and payware addons are the reason MS is still selling copies of FSX 5 years later even though they quit providing any patches or even paying developers to support it.

I personally own multiple copies since I got tired of having to do the phone call thing for activation whenever I reinstall the OS or upgrade h/w as a result of too many past activations, I own:
1ea FSX Deluxe
1ea FSX Acceleration
1ea FSX Gold

That also doesn't include the cost of Windows 7x64 which I did the upgrade to mainly to get rid of the FSX out of memory errors, so I bought an OS upgrade for FSX as one of the primary reasons.

Also there was nothing keeping MS from putting out quality addon aircraft or scenery themselves, so if they wanted a bigger piece of the pie I think it was theirs to take, even now if they put out FS11 with DirectX11 and multi-GPU support and some sort of adjusted licensing agreement that still allowed 3rd party developers to make a profit most of us FSX fans would go out and buy it happily.

We don't have all the background data, but I'm thinking that MS did not lose money on FSX, and I doubt the lack of 3rd party vendor licensing fees was the cause for MS to dump the ACES team and focus on a free-to-play simlite version of FSX, I suspect it has more to do with internal business "strategic alignment" within the company that saw all the game studios fall under the "Xbox" senior executive management and they closed many of the studios (ACES, FASA, Bungie, Ensemble) and re-aligned many of the titles to be more focused on the recurring revenue yearly release and DLC console type of model.

Of course that's just my opinion based on some of the articles and my experience working at humongous corporations, probably not worth $.02 :-)
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#3490853 - 01/09/12 02:37 PM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: kludger]
Brett Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 439
I'm kind of in a wait and see on MS Flight. Everything I have seen on Xplane 10 has kind of made it a non-starter and the fact that it isn't getting much attention makes it even more of a non-starter.

The little bit I have seen on Flight shows impressive graphics. I obviously can't comment on the flight model but I have a hard time believing it was made worse than FSX.

Most everything seems to come down the business model and development of a sort of multi-player flight environment as opposed to the more traditional open approach. I can see value in keeping it "locked down" like it has been with the idea that everyone is using the same equipment and has the same scenery especially from the MMOFG perspective.

To me it is kind of like comparing Iracing and Rfactor. Iracing is closed source where you buy cars and tracks from iracing (or more correctly....rent them). Rfactor has a lot of generated third party freeware products.....some are very good some not so. The same applies for FSX add-ons....some are exceptional some are mediocre at best. It could be that MS is not wanting to have that kind of variability in their MMOFG.

Having the scenery and planes purchased piecemeal has some value for the consumer as well. Also it gives the developer incentive to develop some very detailed scenery instead of going generic and update it in the future as well. I don't doubt that they will have fully functional airliners and world wide detailed scenery ( with more popular areas and planes making appearances first). The plus side of it from a consumer is that you pay for what you want. For those that want to fly airliners world wide with detailed scenery then I'm sure you will be able to do it......its just going to cost you (kind of like racing full schedule of oval and road tracks at iracing will cost you a lot of money in track purchases). If you are interested in just flying a single engine plane in one physical area then you are likely going to have a much more economical experience.

Basically.......the more you want the more it is going to cost.....but in reality that isn't much different than those of us who have invested in add-ons and mods for FSX.

So basically, I'm just going to wait an see and probably try the free version when its released, see what is available with the add-ons and make my decision from there.....you can't beat the price (and any ranting or raving isn't going to get microsoft to change their business model for this)



Edited by Brett (01/09/12 02:39 PM)

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#3490883 - 01/09/12 03:03 PM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: kludger]
flyboy77 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Fort Worth,Texas
Originally Posted By: kludger
Originally Posted By: flyboy77

I understand what you are saying,about MS wanting all the money. But honestly MS (I'm no MS fan)has spent a large amout of money and time on a game they produced. In all honestly I think MS was very generous with FSX in the past,letting the 3rd party people make millions off a game MS created. I have read where MS wanted a "cut" in the 3rd party addon market,but the 3rd party market was greedy and said no.


MS created the 3rd party SDK with the specific purpose of opening it up to 3rd party developers and they did not include any sort of revenue sharing license agreement thinking that the 3rd party products would sell more copies of FSX, and I suspect they have indeed made a ton of money selling copies of FSX that would otherwise not have been sold if people were stuck with the simple aircraft and scenery included.

The freeware and payware addons are the reason MS is still selling copies of FSX 5 years later even though they quit providing any patches or even paying developers to support it.

I personally own multiple copies since I got tired of having to do the phone call thing for activation whenever I reinstall the OS or upgrade h/w as a result of too many past activations, I own:
1ea FSX Deluxe
1ea FSX Acceleration
1ea FSX Gold

That also doesn't include the cost of Windows 7x64 which I did the upgrade to mainly to get rid of the FSX out of memory errors, so I bought an OS upgrade for FSX as one of the primary reasons.

Also there was nothing keeping MS from putting out quality addon aircraft or scenery themselves, so if they wanted a bigger piece of the pie I think it was theirs to take, even now if they put out FS11 with DirectX11 and multi-GPU support and some sort of adjusted licensing agreement that still allowed 3rd party developers to make a profit most of us FSX fans would go out and buy it happily.

We don't have all the background data, but I'm thinking that MS did not lose money on FSX, and I doubt the lack of 3rd party vendor licensing fees was the cause for MS to dump the ACES team and focus on a free-to-play simlite version of FSX, I suspect it has more to do with internal business "strategic alignment" within the company that saw all the game studios fall under the "Xbox" senior executive management and they closed many of the studios (ACES, FASA, Bungie, Ensemble) and re-aligned many of the titles to be more focused on the recurring revenue yearly release and DLC console type of model.

Of course that's just my opinion based on some of the articles and my experience working at humongous corporations, probably not worth $.02 :-)


I understand why MS created the SDK and that addons would create more FSX sales. I have even said that the community created the next version of FSX. Most game developers in the past 10 years have not lost money or will develop a game that will not make money.
I will say that the fall to the xbox is starting,this can be confirmed by the next OS windows 8.It will allow xbox players to play along side pc players. Even graphics cards are now being developed with a performance cap.
But in all honestly MS wants to cash in on the add on market. And it must be pretty good for Microsoft to develop and support it with flight.
I only have one copy of FSX and acceleration.
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#3490886 - 01/09/12 03:06 PM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: Brett]
flyboy77 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Fort Worth,Texas
Originally Posted By: Brett
I'm kind of in a wait and see on MS Flight. Everything I have seen on Xplane 10 has kind of made it a non-starter and the fact that it isn't getting much attention makes it even more of a non-starter.

The little bit I have seen on Flight shows impressive graphics. I obviously can't comment on the flight model but I have a hard time believing it was made worse than FSX.

Most everything seems to come down the business model and development of a sort of multi-player flight environment as opposed to the more traditional open approach. I can see value in keeping it "locked down" like it has been with the idea that everyone is using the same equipment and has the same scenery especially from the MMOFG perspective.

To me it is kind of like comparing Iracing and Rfactor. Iracing is closed source where you buy cars and tracks from iracing (or more correctly....rent them). Rfactor has a lot of generated third party freeware products.....some are very good some not so. The same applies for FSX add-ons....some are exceptional some are mediocre at best. It could be that MS is not wanting to have that kind of variability in their MMOFG.

Having the scenery and planes purchased piecemeal has some value for the consumer as well. Also it gives the developer incentive to develop some very detailed scenery instead of going generic and update it in the future as well. I don't doubt that they will have fully functional airliners and world wide detailed scenery ( with more popular areas and planes making appearances first). The plus side of it from a consumer is that you pay for what you want. For those that want to fly airliners world wide with detailed scenery then I'm sure you will be able to do it......its just going to cost you (kind of like racing full schedule of oval and road tracks at iracing will cost you a lot of money in track purchases). If you are interested in just flying a single engine plane in one physical area then you are likely going to have a much more economical experience.

Basically.......the more you want the more it is going to cost.....but in reality that isn't much different than those of us who have invested in add-ons and mods for FSX.

So basically, I'm just going to wait an see and probably try the free version when its released, see what is available with the add-ons and make my decision from there.....you can't beat the price (and any ranting or raving isn't going to get microsoft to change their business model for this)



Yeah...I tried the x-plane demo and just could not get into it.
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#3490942 - 01/09/12 03:56 PM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: coreyhkh]
kludger Offline
Admitted Optimist
Hotshot

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 5200
Loc: Seattle,USA
Yeah me too, I'm actually pretty open minded and hope that Flight, XP10 and Prepar3D will continue to grow into the kind of sim that will pull me from FSX+Addons eventually, for now I am watching and waiting, though I will try Flight whenever it comes out and I will keep trying the XP10 demo when they update it and will probably give Prepar3D a try via that $10/mo thing when they release v2.0 with DirectX11 support.
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#3491136 - 01/09/12 08:05 PM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: coreyhkh]
malibu43 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 1385
Loc: Belmont, CA
Until people pay money for MS Flight (or an addon) and it doesn’t live up to what was advertised, all this whining and ranting is just ridiculous.

Microsoft didn’t sneak into all of your computers and delete FSX off of your hard drive and scratch your installation CD’s/DVD’s. It’s still there for you to play (yeah, I said “play”. It’s a computer game…). All the 3rd party folks can keep making add-ons for FSX. No one’s stopping them. No one’s stopping you from spending your money with them. No one is forcing you to try/adopt Flight.

And why wouldn’t Microsoft want the revenue from add-ons? They saw how big of a market it is for FS9/FSX and realized there was more money to be made. I hope this doesn’t come as a news flash to people, but companies exist to make money. A successful company makes as much money as it can and getting bigger and offering new products and competing and winning market share and expanding into new markets and making more money, etc… If they make money by being unethical, then that’s not cool. But there’s nothing unethical about M$ limiting Flight to only allow MS addons. (Whether or not it ultimately hurts them or is good for them is TBD and really can’t be commented on right now. It depends on the quality of addons they make and how well they sell.)


Edited by malibu43 (01/09/12 08:07 PM)
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#3491265 - 01/10/12 02:09 AM Re: WOW MS FLIGHT IS #%&*$# [Re: coreyhkh]
FishTaco Offline
Cromulent
Member

Registered: 12/18/03
Posts: 1489
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Malibu;

Perhaps you should look at a bit of history of the FSX product. There was a ton of stuff left unfinished in FSX, things that the ACES team wanted to complete, but M$ cut the timeline on the team, chopped out ideas, and then fired the staff!

Given the 'management know better' mentality of todays workforce, M$ deserves to lose out. As others have said, MS could have put out additional aircraft etc, but chose not to. For me, I do not want to buy a product like FLIGHT, because like the majority of other real pilots who fly this 'game', I like to fly in my own areas. I do not want to be in a position where I have to keep buying and buying, just to make the new 'game' similar to the previous one when it came out of the box.

Yes, I have paid for third party add-ons, but said add-ons make it a true simulator experience, and are thus worth the money.

AJ.
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