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#3466968 - 12/03/11 01:41 AM Hurricane with 20mm  
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Combat99 Offline
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Are there any versions of the Hurri in the game that actually mount 20mm cannon? So far I haven't seen them..

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#3467086 - 12/03/11 09:08 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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I'm fairly certain Hurricanes never carried 20mm during the Battle of Britain. Spitfires did have 20mm later in the war, not sure if they ever mounted 20mm on Hurricanes.


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#3467087 - 12/03/11 09:09 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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As Chivas said I believe the only cannon armed RAF machines which actually saw operations in BoB were the Spit IIs, and toward the end of the year, Beaufighters. You always learn something new about the period but I don't recall ever reading about cannon armed Hurris in the BoB. The cannons had limited impact due to teething probs...they had to be side mounted to fit the existing wing structure of the Spit and were prone to jamming because spent shells did not eject properly. 19 Sq was the first to fly with them and Dowding didn't trust them, not least because the 2 unreliable cannons replaced 8 reliable Brownings.

There is a good quote from LW pilot Hans-Ekkard Bob, "In a fraction of a second I could bring down a Spitfire. If I could hit it twice, I could destroy it. The English had to score a great many hits with their MGs to bring a plane down, but they didn't have to shoot as accurately.'

I think that says it all.


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#3467108 - 12/03/11 11:45 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: HeinKill]  
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151 Squadron had two Hurricanes experimentally fitted with 20 mm cannon during the battle. One with two cannon and one with four. I don't know about the four gun plane but the two gun one had them fitted in pods underneath the wing adding a lot of drag (I have a photo somewhere). Only one pilot showed a keeness for them and chose one or other whenever they were serviceable. He was Flight Lieutenant Roddick Lee Smith, B Flight commander. The cannon were not altogether reliable and the pods added a lot of drag, affecting speed and manoeverability, but packed a far greater punch than eight machine guns. From 'Battle of Britain' by Richard Hough and Denis Richards. ISBN 9781844156573.

RedToo.

Edit: some more info here:

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthr...tle-of-Britain.

http://www.the-battle-of-britain.co.uk/pilots/Sm-pilots.html


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Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C.S. Lewis, 1898 - 1963.
#3467161 - 12/03/11 02:36 PM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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Via the all knowing GOOGLE and at WIKIPEDIA

Hurricane Mk II
Hawker Hurricane IIA at the National Museum of the United States Air Force

The improved Merlin XX (Mk.20) engine appeared in 1940 featuring a new two-speed supercharger that could have its impeller speed changed by the pilot depending on the outside air pressure (altitude). At about 18,000 ft/5,486 m (effective), it would be switched to a higher speed gearing ("FS ratio" – Full Supercharge) for added compression, while below that, at its lower speed gearing, ("MS ratio" – Moderate Supercharge), it "robbed" less power from the engine. The result was more power at both lower and higher altitudes, dramatically increasing the overall performance of the engine, peaking at 1,280 hp (954 kW). Because of the new engine the bay immediately in front of the cockpit was lengthened by 4 in (10 cm). The carburettor air intake under the forward centre-section was redesigned and moved back 3 in (7.6 cm). The more powerful engine was cooled by a 70% to 30% water glycol mix, rather than pure glycol used for earlier Merlin versions. This and the increased cooling requirements required a larger radiator and a redesigned, circular oil cooler housed in a deeper, slightly wider "bath".

Hurricane IIA Series 1

Although, by this time, production of the Spitfire had started to increase, a Merlin XX powered Hurricane Mk I was built and first flew on 11 June 1940. The initial Mark II, later known as the Mark IIA Series 1, went into squadron service in September 1940 at the peak of the Battle of Britain.

Hawker had long experimented with improving the armament of the fighter by fitting cannons. Their first experiments used two 20 mm (.79 in) Oerlikon cannons in pods, one under each wing, (one aircraft was tested during 1940 with 151 Squadron[8]) but the extra weight and drag seriously compromised the aircraft's performance and manoeuvreability, and the limited amount of ammunition carried coupled with the frequent stoppages suffered by the drum-fed guns, meant the arrangement was unsatisfactory.

A more reliable fit was made with four 20 mm (.79 in) Hispano Mk II cannons, two in each wing, but the weight was enough to seriously reduce performance. The Hispanos were designed for a rigid, engine based mounting and it was quickly found that the wings flexing in flight led to problems with the weapons twisting in their mounts as they fired, which caused gun jamming through misaligned shells. Changes made both to the Hispanos and to their mountings cured this problem. Small blisters on the upper wing surfaces were needed to clear the Hispano breeches and feed motors. The first sets of Hispano wings were modified from standard Mark I eight gun wings.

Hurricane IIA Series 2 (Hurricane IIB)

With the new Merlin XX, performance was good enough to keep the ageing Hurricane in production. Hawker soon introduced the new Mark IIA Series 2 with either of two wings; one mounting 12 Brownings, the other with four Hispano cannon in the original gun-bays. The first Series 2s, armed with 12 .303 in (7.7 mm) Brownings (four per wing in the original gun-bays and two more in new gun-bays outboard of the landing lights) arrived in October. These Mk IIA Series IIs also featured a new longer propeller spinner and later become the Mark IIB in April 1941. The tailwheel recess on the ventral keel was changed in shape and the tailwheel leg became a levered-suspension unit with a small torque link.

#3467178 - 12/03/11 03:11 PM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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Amazing what even 8 brownings can do .. convergence set to 200m.



#3467226 - 12/03/11 04:57 PM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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Mk. IIc's were the first to be factory fitted with cannons inside the wings, versus external gun pods. These were first produced in April 41. Not sure of the timeline on when they actually reached service units, but imagine that during war, it would have been relatively quickly. Still much after the BoB period.

#3467247 - 12/03/11 05:39 PM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: cheesehawk]  
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Here's the photo of Flight Lieutenant Dick Smith's two cannon Hurricane, which was flown on operations during the battle.



The pic is from 'The Hardest Day - The Battle of Britain 18 August 1940' by Alfred Price. ISBN 0 304 35081 8

RedToo.


My 'Waiting for Clod' thread: http://tinyurl.com/bqxc9ee

Always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
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Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C.S. Lewis, 1898 - 1963.
#3467285 - 12/03/11 06:55 PM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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Very interesting, you learn something new everyday, but I doubt there was enough of an impact for the developer to model. That said it shouldn't stop modders when they are given the tools by the developer.


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#3467517 - 12/04/11 04:24 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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Interesting, I always thought the gun pods were bolt on, and the wing mounted machine guns were kept. This photo doesn't show the red tape covering the machine guns, were they removed?

#3467519 - 12/04/11 04:43 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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I would imagine they would have been, for the weight.

#3467525 - 12/04/11 05:02 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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The gun pods themselves limited the Hurri to a 4-g max. They weren't for dogfighting, but for ground attack/bomber busting, so weight wouldn't have been so important. Of course, since you're busy bolting on some pretty hefty gun pods, guess it wouldn't be that much more work to remove some machine guns at the same time, just had always thought they were still on there.

#3484644 - 12/31/11 07:31 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Chivas]  
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Hurricane Mk IIC (Hurricane Mk IIA Series 2)
Hurricane Mk IIA Series 1 equipped with new and slightly longer propeller spinner and new wing mounting four 20 mm (.79 in) Hispano Mk II cannons. Hurricane IIA Series 2 became the Mk IIC in June 1941, using a slightly modified wing. The new wings also included a hardpoint for a 500 lb (230 kg) or 250 lb (110 kg) bomb, and later in 1941, fuel tanks. By then performance was inferior to the latest German fighters, and the Hurricane changed to the ground-attack role, sometimes referred to as the Hurribomber. The mark also served as a night fighter and "intruder."

Hurricane Mk IID
Hurricane Mk IIB conversion armed with two 40 mm (1.57 in) AT cannons in a pod under each wing and a single Browning machine gun in each wing loaded with tracers for aiming purposes. The first aircraft flew on 18 September 1941 and deliveries started in 1942. Serial built aircraft had additional armour for the pilot, radiator and engine, and were armed with a Rolls-Royce gun with 12 rounds, later changed to the 40 mm (1.57 in) Vickers S gun with 15 rounds. The outer wing attachments were strengthened so that 4G could be pulled at a weight of 8,540 lb (3,874 kg).[77] The weight of guns and armour protection marginally impacted the aircraft's performance. These Hurricanes were nicknamed "Flying Can Openers", perhaps a play on the No. 6 Squadron's logo which flew the Hurricane starting in 1941.


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#3484646 - 12/31/11 07:34 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: RedToo]  
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Originally Posted By: RedToo
Here's the photo of Flight Lieutenant Dick Smith's two cannon Hurricane, which was flown on operations during the battle.



The pic is from 'The Hardest Day - The Battle of Britain 18 August 1940' by Alfred Price. ISBN 0 304 35081 8

RedToo.


Experimental model that was not used in combat.


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#3484683 - 12/31/11 09:54 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: slickwing]  
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RedToo Offline
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Quote:
Experimental model that was not used in combat.


Have to disagree. Experimental - yes. Flown in combat - yes. See references and links I posted earlier in this thread.

RedToo.

Last edited by RedToo; 12/31/11 10:40 AM.

My 'Waiting for Clod' thread: http://tinyurl.com/bqxc9ee

Always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
Elie Wiesel. Romanian born Jewish writer, professor, political activist, Nobel Laureate, Holocaust survivor. 1928 - 2016.

Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C.S. Lewis, 1898 - 1963.
#3484687 - 12/31/11 10:05 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: HeinKill]  
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Originally Posted By: HeinKill
... 19 Sq was the first to fly with them and Dowding didn't trust them, not least because the 2 unreliable cannons replaced 8 reliable Brownings.


Not quite there. My memory was, and is verified that, "apparently 170 were Mk IIbs, with two 20mm cannon and four .303 machine guns. The Mk II appeared in time to take part in the Battle of Britain". But as you say they were only given to No19 where they were prone to jamming and were replaced within about a fortnight.

Originally Posted By: HeinKill
There is a good quote from LW pilot Hans-Ekkard Bob, "In a fraction of a second I could bring down a Spitfire. If I could hit it twice, I could destroy it. The English had to score a great many hits with their MGs to bring a plane down, but they didn't have to shoot as accurately.' I think that says it all.


Having just picked up CoD, I have little experience in Bf109, but the one mission I flew with cannon armed E-3 I landed several hits on a Spitfire (big flashes lots of smoke), at least 4-6, and it simply kept flying but not very well with a skeleton rudder etc. (were Spit and Hurri rudders also fabric covered? I know ailerons were...). Just guessing, but perhaps the cannon is not penetrating through flimsy tail structure etc?


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#3484708 - 12/31/11 11:25 AM Re: Hurricane with 20mm [Re: Combat99]  
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well.. No19 realy got Spit MkI , in wich all 8 .303 were replaced with 2 20mm canons. But as already said, these canons were such unreliable in combat (and without the MGs the planes than had no armament) and were replaced again with 8 .303 Spit I.

The 2x20mm&8x.303cal armament came later. And was not used in the timeframe of the CoD IIRC.


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