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#3477628 - 12/20/11 03:18 PM Sometimes it really is the plane  
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PatrickAWilson Offline
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One of the things that folks are fond of saying is that it's not the plane, it's the pilot. No doubt true to some degree, but not always.

I was watching an interview/recreation on the history channel. The subject was the introduction of the Hellcat,and the story centered around a combat between a Japanese ace and the Hellcat pilot being interviewed. The scenario goes like this:

Hellcat and Zero are fighting largely in the horizontal. The Zero has scored some hits but without great effect. At this point the Zero goes vertical. The Hellcat pilot thinks he has an absolute newbie on his hands. He goes vertical with the Zero, pulls through the arc and easily shoots the Zero down.

Turns out the Zero pilot was not a newbie at all. He was an ace with nine victories using a tried and true tactic ... against Wildcats. A Wildcat would have stalled, allowing the Zero to come over the top and hammer the now helpless airplane (remember, getting nailed by a plane with its nose pointed straight up in a full stall only happens in RoF :)).

The Zero pilot's second to last thought must have been "Where is he?". His last,of course, would be "Oh sh..!".

Sometimes it is the plane smile.

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#3477721 - 12/20/11 05:27 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Dogfights is hardly the most credible depiction of air combat, but it is true that "it's the pilot, not the plane" is a very overblown bit of propaganda. Otherwise there would be no justification for introducing newer, higher performance aircraft.

#3477730 - 12/20/11 05:52 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson

One of the things that folks are fond of saying is that it's not the plane, it's the pilot. No doubt true to some degree, but not always. [...]
Sometimes it is the plane smile.



"It's the pilot, not the plane!"
Said the pilot in the better plane ..

Smile2

#3477785 - 12/20/11 06:56 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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I think the saying comes from the fact that a good pilot in an inferior plane can best a lesser pilot in a superior plane. There's nothing more satisfying than outmaneuvering/outthinking a pilot who is flying a supposedly "better" aircraft than you.

The saying could be changed to "It's also the pilot, not just the plane", but that doesn't have quite the same ring to it.


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#3478056 - 12/21/11 12:44 AM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
One of the things that folks are fond of saying is that it's not the plane, it's the pilot. No doubt true to some degree, but not always.

I was watching an interview/recreation on the history channel. The subject was the introduction of the Hellcat,and the story centered around a combat between a Japanese ace and the Hellcat pilot being interviewed. The scenario goes like this:

Hellcat and Zero are fighting largely in the horizontal. The Zero has scored some hits but without great effect. At this point the Zero goes vertical. The Hellcat pilot thinks he has an absolute newbie on his hands. He goes vertical with the Zero, pulls through the arc and easily shoots the Zero down.

Turns out the Zero pilot was not a newbie at all. He was an ace with nine victories using a tried and true tactic ... against Wildcats. A Wildcat would have stalled, allowing the Zero to come over the top and hammer the now helpless airplane (remember, getting nailed by a plane with its nose pointed straight up in a full stall only happens in RoF :)).

The Zero pilot's second to last thought must have been "Where is he?". His last,of course, would be "Oh sh..!".

Sometimes it is the plane smile.


Your particular example isn't really illustrating that sometimes it's the plane. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that particular fight isn't really apropos to the contention.
It's the pilots job to fly his particular plane to it's strengths, and according to those of the opposing aircraft.
It's still pilot error on the part of the Zeke driver - he should have stayed in the horizontal. The pilot made a bad decision that led to his demise. Now maybe he'd have been killed in another 90 seconds, maybe not.

There's was a fight between 2 P38's and alone Ki43 pilot. The 38's took turns diving on him (he was pretty much on the deck) and he would always evade at the last moment. The P38's finally gave up and left. Now I don't think anyone would argue that a Ki43 should be outclassed by a single P38, let alone 2. Yet he came away with what, under the circumstances, I'd clearly call a victory.

#3478075 - 12/21/11 01:28 AM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: Gambit21]  
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Huh? Sounds to me like you're proving Pats example perfectly. It was a pilot in an inferior plane who managed to survive the attacks of multiple "superior" aircraft. It wasn't the rifle, it was the cowboy....

copter


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#3478195 - 12/21/11 05:40 AM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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It's always the plane AND the pilot.

#3478384 - 12/21/11 01:56 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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It's not the plane or the pilot, it's FATE!
smile


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#3478437 - 12/21/11 03:00 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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The Zero pilot made a mistake, however, he could not have known at that moment that he was doing so. The plane allowed the Hellcat pilot to do what no Wildcat pilot could do. The Zero pilot's tactics were perfectly valid against what he knew, but a new plane changed the rules of the game.

If circumstances had been different, if that encounter had taken place later when the Hellcat was better understood, then maybe the Zero pilot would have stayed horizontal and lived a bit longer. Maybe. Regardless, it was the capabilities of the Hellcat that removed options from the Zero driver's bag of tricks.

In the case of the Ki43 I really don't call that a victory. Great flying just to survive or maybe poor gunnery on the part of the P-38 drivers, but if I am getting bounced by enemy planes with no options other than to dodge for my life, I don't think that I'm feeling particularly victorious. Reverse the situation - the outnumbered P-38 driver just flies away. Much better option IMHO.

#3478529 - 12/21/11 05:22 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
The Zero pilot made a mistake, however, he could not have known at that moment that he was doing so.

That's neither here nor there. Often the pilot doesn't realize he's making the mistake that's about to kill him.

Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
Regardless, it was the capabilities of the Hellcat that removed options from the Zero driver's bag of tricks.

The Zero pilot had fewer options than if he'd been facing the Hellcat, but that doesn't matter, the option he chose was a mistake.


Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
In the case of the Ki43 I really don't call that a victory. Great flying just to survive or maybe poor gunnery on the part of the P-38 drivers, but if I am getting bounced by enemy planes with no options other than to dodge for my life, I don't think that I'm feeling particularly victorious. Reverse the situation - the outnumbered P-38 driver just flies away. Much better option IMHO.


In this, and in the context of the point I was making, it was a victory. Just like Dunkirk was considered a victory. Those British troops should have been goners. That Ki43 pilot should have been a goner. Poor gunnery? Maybe, but we can play that game all day. The point is that a radically inferior aircraft survived against 2 determined pilots flying superior aircraft, with massive altitude and energy advantages. He should have been dead, he lived. I'd say that's a victory in this context. Context is everything in this case.

#3478638 - 12/21/11 07:37 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Saburo Sakai (Highest scoring Japanese ace that survived WW2 I believe) was on his way back from a mission in his A6M2 "Zero", having no ammo left either, when he was reportedly jumped by something like 12 F6F Hellcats, he aerobaticed his way out of it too.
I think one of the reasons why he got away was exactly because he had no ammo left, had he stayed on one`s tail for too long (Flying an aircraft with no armor or self sealing tanks I`d imagine "too long" to be something like half a second in real time) he would have been cut down like weed.

The A6M2 could still turn better than any aircraft the U.S Navy could throw at it even at the very end of the war (Unless you build an aircraft for turn & burn by sacrificing armor for turning, but that has never been the U.S style), and in the hands of a capable pilot was still a deadly aircraft.

But even with a great A6 pilot, if you got it outnumbered, and with the canopy on that thing not being the bubble type, plus the pilot head position being lower than optimal (Obscured low 12 o`clock view, plus making target aquisition harder, especially in an outnumbered situation) you were almost 100% certain to be looking at one dead japanese flyboy..

I`d grab a Zero over any superior Japanese aircraft if it means getting underestimated and fooling the enemy into making the mistake of fighting my fight, I`m almost willing to bet you that over 50% of the U.S Navy Hellcat gunkill losses IN dogfights against Zero`s at the end of the war was due to the Hellcat pilot underestimating a Zero pilots skill.

#3478717 - 12/21/11 09:12 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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aye!
Sakai's book is a good read indeed.

#3478995 - 12/22/11 06:36 AM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
One of the things that folks are fond of saying is that it's not the plane, it's the pilot. No doubt true to some degree, but not always.

I was watching an interview/recreation on the history channel. The subject was the introduction of the Hellcat,and the story centered around a combat between a Japanese ace and the Hellcat pilot being interviewed. The scenario goes like this:

Hellcat and Zero are fighting largely in the horizontal. The Zero has scored some hits but without great effect. At this point the Zero goes vertical. The Hellcat pilot thinks he has an absolute newbie on his hands. He goes vertical with the Zero, pulls through the arc and easily shoots the Zero down.

Turns out the Zero pilot was not a newbie at all. He was an ace with nine victories using a tried and true tactic ... against Wildcats. A Wildcat would have stalled, allowing the Zero to come over the top and hammer the now helpless airplane (remember, getting nailed by a plane with its nose pointed straight up in a full stall only happens in RoF :)).

The Zero pilot's second to last thought must have been "Where is he?". His last,of course, would be "Oh sh..!".

Sometimes it is the plane smile.


Interesting discussion, Patrick.

There is a statistic (that, with my terrible memory, I've forgotten sigh ) regarding the overall distribution of aerial victories that held true in WWI and WWII.

In both wars, when the total number of planes shot down was compared to the number of pilots getting "kills", it became clear that a surprisingly small number of pilots accounted for the majority of total kills.

Good fortune, skill, and equipment certainly all played a part... but the single factor that seemed constant with the "Aces" was skill.

So for that small percentage of elite pilots, I think the "It's not the plane, it's the pilot" is actually true.

But yes you are right, for the "average" pilot, a lot of it really is the plane (assuming a competent combat pilot).

Especially when an aircraft first arrives in the theater, and the opposing pilots are not yet familiar with the new type's capabilities... such as the Hellcat Vs Zero example you gave.

Another example would be the arrival of the P-47 in England, when it went up against Bf-109 or Fw-190's flown by equal (or better) German pilots.

American P-47 ace Robert Johnson describes time after time the German fighters would attempt to use an escape tactic that had worked well against Spitfires, but was often a fatal mistake against a well-flown P-47: The split-s towards the deck to dive away and extend or escape.

The German fighters could usually out-roll and out-dive the Spitfire, and this escape maneuver worked in the BoB.

But the P-47 could both out-roll and out-dive the German fighters, and easily followed them through the maneuver, surprising the German pilots and often resulting in an "Oh Sh..." moment for the -109 or -190 pilot.

What was my point? sigh

Oh yeah: I believe Saburo Sakai survived against "impossible" odds due to 1 part "luck", and 3 parts superior skill and experience (compared to the Hellcat drivers)... but in general, I'd bet on an average pilot in a great plane, over the reverse. thumbsup

Best wishes.


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#3479203 - 12/22/11 04:59 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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To further make the point (or try to :)) - look at the stories of the great pilots in inferior planes. Great stories of survival against terrible odds. But that's not winning a war. That is a supremely talented individual barely getting out alive. His less talented (and sometimes equally talented but less lucky) compatriots are getting slaughtered in droves in their inferior machines. Sure,some of them are having some success, but for the most part they are losing.

How different would it have been if the USN did nothing more than field improved Wildcats the way the IJN fielded nothing more than improved Zeroes? Through industry and manufacture the US would still have won, but I doubt that the slaughter of the IJN would have been anywhere near as bad.

Fielding the Hellcat made the likes of Sakai far less effective and made his less talented compatriots ... toast.

Not saying that the pilot doesn't matter, just saying that the plane does matter - a lot.

#3479262 - 12/22/11 06:21 PM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
Not saying that the pilot doesn't matter, just saying that the plane does matter - a lot.


Don't waste your breath. "It's the pilot blah blah blah" is so cemented in the lore of internet air-combat that you will never dislodge it. Think about why: it's a completely self-serving mantra. You pick the best aircraft available in the game, do very well with it versus opponents who are in worse aircraft, thrash them, and then get to claim that it was entirely due to skill. pilot

#3479598 - 12/23/11 02:53 AM Re: Sometimes it really is the plane [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
Not saying that the pilot doesn't matter, just saying that the plane does matter - a lot.


Don't waste your breath. "It's the pilot blah blah blah" is so cemented in the lore of internet air-combat that you will never dislodge it. Think about why: it's a completely self-serving mantra. You pick the best aircraft available in the game, do very well with it versus opponents who are in worse aircraft, thrash them, and then get to claim that it was entirely due to skill. pilot


Seems to me it's both - plane AND pilot.

...sure, you can paint the bleak picture of the D7F pilot proclaiming "It's the pilot" when bragging about his many DH2 kills.....

But then what about the DH2 pilot who somehow scores many D7F kills?

...of course you respond with, those must be some horrible Fokker pilots!

To which then, it IS the DH2 pilot, not the plane.

...it really can go both ways.

[EDIT:] @Pat - it is my opinion, that pilot skill and plane perfomance go hand-in-hand. Simply meaning, the less of a gap in plane performance, the more skill one pilot has to have over the other to attain victory. Conversly, the less gap in pilot skill, the more perfomance advantage one pilot needs to have over the other to attain the same victory. Disregarding Lady Luck of course. wink


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