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#3477628 - 12/20/11 10:18 AM
Sometimes it really is the plane
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Member
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Tx
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One of the things that folks are fond of saying is that it's not the plane, it's the pilot. No doubt true to some degree, but not always. I was watching an interview/recreation on the history channel. The subject was the introduction of the Hellcat,and the story centered around a combat between a Japanese ace and the Hellcat pilot being interviewed. The scenario goes like this: Hellcat and Zero are fighting largely in the horizontal. The Zero has scored some hits but without great effect. At this point the Zero goes vertical. The Hellcat pilot thinks he has an absolute newbie on his hands. He goes vertical with the Zero, pulls through the arc and easily shoots the Zero down. Turns out the Zero pilot was not a newbie at all. He was an ace with nine victories using a tried and true tactic ... against Wildcats. A Wildcat would have stalled, allowing the Zero to come over the top and hammer the now helpless airplane (remember, getting nailed by a plane with its nose pointed straight up in a full stall only happens in RoF :)). The Zero pilot's second to last thought must have been "Where is he?". His last,of course, would be "Oh sh..!". Sometimes it is the plane  .
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#3477721 - 12/20/11 12:27 PM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
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Member
Registered: 06/20/10
Posts: 519
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Dogfights is hardly the most credible depiction of air combat, but it is true that "it's the pilot, not the plane" is a very overblown bit of propaganda. Otherwise there would be no justification for introducing newer, higher performance aircraft.
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#3477730 - 12/20/11 12:52 PM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
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Member
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 1091
Loc: Where the ocean meets the sky
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One of the things that folks are fond of saying is that it's not the plane, it's the pilot. No doubt true to some degree, but not always. [...] Sometimes it is the plane  . "It's the pilot, not the plane!" Said the pilot in the better plane .. 
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#3477785 - 12/20/11 01:56 PM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
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Permanoob
Senior Member
Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 2959
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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I think the saying comes from the fact that a good pilot in an inferior plane can best a lesser pilot in a superior plane. There's nothing more satisfying than outmaneuvering/outthinking a pilot who is flying a supposedly "better" aircraft than you.
The saying could be changed to "It's also the pilot, not just the plane", but that doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
_________________________
Shoot to Kill. Play to Have Fun.
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#3478056 - 12/20/11 07:44 PM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
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Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 922
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One of the things that folks are fond of saying is that it's not the plane, it's the pilot. No doubt true to some degree, but not always. I was watching an interview/recreation on the history channel. The subject was the introduction of the Hellcat,and the story centered around a combat between a Japanese ace and the Hellcat pilot being interviewed. The scenario goes like this: Hellcat and Zero are fighting largely in the horizontal. The Zero has scored some hits but without great effect. At this point the Zero goes vertical. The Hellcat pilot thinks he has an absolute newbie on his hands. He goes vertical with the Zero, pulls through the arc and easily shoots the Zero down. Turns out the Zero pilot was not a newbie at all. He was an ace with nine victories using a tried and true tactic ... against Wildcats. A Wildcat would have stalled, allowing the Zero to come over the top and hammer the now helpless airplane (remember, getting nailed by a plane with its nose pointed straight up in a full stall only happens in RoF :)). The Zero pilot's second to last thought must have been "Where is he?". His last,of course, would be "Oh sh..!". Sometimes it is the plane  . Your particular example isn't really illustrating that sometimes it's the plane. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that particular fight isn't really apropos to the contention. It's the pilots job to fly his particular plane to it's strengths, and according to those of the opposing aircraft. It's still pilot error on the part of the Zeke driver - he should have stayed in the horizontal. The pilot made a bad decision that led to his demise. Now maybe he'd have been killed in another 90 seconds, maybe not. There's was a fight between 2 P38's and alone Ki43 pilot. The 38's took turns diving on him (he was pretty much on the deck) and he would always evade at the last moment. The P38's finally gave up and left. Now I don't think anyone would argue that a Ki43 should be outclassed by a single P38, let alone 2. Yet he came away with what, under the circumstances, I'd clearly call a victory.
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#3478075 - 12/20/11 08:28 PM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: Gambit21]
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Member
Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 2310
Loc: Lafayette, LA. USA
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Huh? Sounds to me like you're proving Pats example perfectly. It was a pilot in an inferior plane who managed to survive the attacks of multiple "superior" aircraft. It wasn't the rifle, it was the cowboy.... 
_________________________
Skids are for kids!
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#3478195 - 12/21/11 12:40 AM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
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Member
Registered: 01/08/06
Posts: 586
Loc: Naples, FL
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It's always the plane AND the pilot.
_________________________
JFM Jim Miller
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#3478384 - 12/21/11 08:56 AM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
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Entil'zha
Big Kahuna
Registered: 02/15/00
Posts: 35805
Loc: Space Coast, USA
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It's not the plane or the pilot, it's FATE!  The Jedi Master
_________________________
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3478437 - 12/21/11 10:00 AM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
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Member
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Tx
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The Zero pilot made a mistake, however, he could not have known at that moment that he was doing so. The plane allowed the Hellcat pilot to do what no Wildcat pilot could do. The Zero pilot's tactics were perfectly valid against what he knew, but a new plane changed the rules of the game.
If circumstances had been different, if that encounter had taken place later when the Hellcat was better understood, then maybe the Zero pilot would have stayed horizontal and lived a bit longer. Maybe. Regardless, it was the capabilities of the Hellcat that removed options from the Zero driver's bag of tricks.
In the case of the Ki43 I really don't call that a victory. Great flying just to survive or maybe poor gunnery on the part of the P-38 drivers, but if I am getting bounced by enemy planes with no options other than to dodge for my life, I don't think that I'm feeling particularly victorious. Reverse the situation - the outnumbered P-38 driver just flies away. Much better option IMHO.
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#3478529 - 12/21/11 12:22 PM
Re: Sometimes it really is the plane
[Re: PatrickAWilson]
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Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 922
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The Zero pilot made a mistake, however, he could not have known at that moment that he was doing so. That's neither here nor there. Often the pilot doesn't realize he's making the mistake that's about to kill him. Regardless, it was the capabilities of the Hellcat that removed options from the Zero driver's bag of tricks. The Zero pilot had fewer options than if he'd been facing the Hellcat, but that doesn't matter, the option he chose was a mistake. In the case of the Ki43 I really don't call that a victory. Great flying just to survive or maybe poor gunnery on the part of the P-38 drivers, but if I am getting bounced by enemy planes with no options other than to dodge for my life, I don't think that I'm feeling particularly victorious. Reverse the situation - the outnumbered P-38 driver just flies away. Much better option IMHO.
In this, and in the context of the point I was making, it was a victory. Just like Dunkirk was considered a victory. Those British troops should have been goners. That Ki43 pilot should have been a goner. Poor gunnery? Maybe, but we can play that game all day. The point is that a radically inferior aircraft survived against 2 determined pilots flying superior aircraft, with massive altitude and energy advantages. He should have been dead, he lived. I'd say that's a victory in this context. Context is everything in this case.
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