I bought BS a while back and I confess it has languished both from it's complexity and because I just have far too many games on my PC.
Now I see it has a new version which is not backwards compatible I assume,
is the old one now basically obsolete? Is everyone now going to BS2? are there any Die Hards who play the original online?
if I learn to fly BS will everything still be the same in BS2, procedures, control assignments, button commands? is there a discount if you already own the first one?
..hey can't hurt to ask

BS2 is like BS1 patched. Many are complaining that ED charged customers for this patch, but that's a dead-horse topic.

BS2 allows helos to be flown alongside A10s.

Black Shark 2 is not backwards compatible with Black Shark 1: tracks won't play back correctly and a BS1 player cannot play multiplayer on a BS2 server. The upgrade is a paid upgrade. As for whether or not it's worth it to you, there's a list of updated features on ED's website here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=81117

...and we are having a Christmas cheer Fly In on Friday December 30th, 2011. I'll post a new thread in this forum later tonight.

Wrecking Crew

Nothing says Christmas Cheer like lighting up a A-10C with a Vikhr, or spraying a Ka-50 with some CM! Ho ho ho, look at the rotors go!

lol

I might upgrade my copy if I feel like I can at least fly around and not crash, I really would like the A-10 sim but if I get that I'll never learn to fly BS so....

KRT, learn to fly with bs1, until you can do a few missions well and if you feel like you enjoy it, upgrade to 2. All the flying and controls and procedures apply equally in 1 and 2. From a single player perspective, BS2 offers improved wingman and armor AI, more comPlex radio procedures, a fast mission generator, and improved environmental lighting. None of which will matter until you learn to keep the ka-50 in the air.
But yOu may just find it's not for you. Maybe a-10c is more yor style. It all depends if you prefer to find aaa and MANPADS an annoyance or a real problem.

I fly mostly fixed wing WWII both Fighter and Mud-Mover alike. I just like to try different aircraft so I thought BS was something a little different that might appeal to me, plus I had seen Golden Ammram's videos and it looks just plain cool and it helps I've been flying a Micro 4 channel Co-axial Helo around the house, lol.

It's quite different and definitely fun when you get the hang of it. Enjoy!

The original poster asked if black shark 1 is obselete. Ans whilst most of you provided helopful content, none of you answered the question.

YES black shark 1 is obselete. Black shark 1 will not see any bugfixes, additional features or future support.

Obsolete?

Well, lets see shall we:


ob·so·lete (bs-lt, bs-lt)
adj.
1. No longer in use: an obsolete word.
2. Outmoded in design, style, or construction:


It would appear that the correct answer is accordingly YES and NO.

No longer in use?

Definitely not - Up to the end-user to play or not. It did not self-destruct at the release of BS2.

Outmoded?

Definitely - If you want bigger and better then BS2 is the way to go. Nobody is forcing the issue though - BS1 is still good to go.


@the OP: Yes and No.

Thanks, you guys if anything you are thorough. All that I wanted to know was answered, I can keep training on this version and the new version will function the same, so (as I understand it) it is basically a rebuild to get it to function as a module with the rest of the future series including A-10 and my profiles I build on my stick will still work assuming key assignments don't change. I'm also assuming it is not compatible with Flaming Cliffs 2 and that will also not be compatible with the DCS future modules, is that a safe assumption?

ED hasn't explicitly ruled anything out (that I've seen, at least), but, yes, it would be prudent to expect that ED will NOT keep Black Shark 1 up-to-date with all their other applications.

Yeah its pretty much done , tho ED might do a paid for patch if they see enough dollar signs

But after they "released" Black shark 2 - the quest for more money patch/upgrade
I think they will be concentrating on milking that

Bitter much?

BS2 is well (well) worth the money. The terrain, lighting, improved objects - all of that are vastly improved. I witnessed the amount of work that went into it, so I can definitely say that the money charged for the upgrade paid for a huge effort. You could certainly buy BS1 and have a great time with it (it's on sale for $13.35 or something at Direct to Drive right now), but BS2 looks so beautiful that you might as well just leap ahead to it.

And flying online with other humans that fly the A-10 is superbly cool. While I was lighting up a Blue FARP the other day online a BLUE A-10 finally spotted me and lit me up with an AIM-9.. It was fun to be sneaking around behind enemy lines but the pillars of smoke from the burning vehicles I left behind eventually pointed their way to me. I loitered too long in one spot and paid the price..

Anyway - no milking at all. Just a constant improvement of products that requires funding. Simple as that.

BeachAV8R

Aint bitter , I just didnt expect to have to pay for a patch/"upgrade"

I mean I already bought A10 and got those improvements , why do I have to pay again ?

The way ED does business beggers belief

Black Shark 2 Just appeared out of no where , no press release , no advertising etc
What happened did it magically appear on a devs HD over night ?

ED want to make money ... right ? If so BS2 release is one of the weirdest on record

Iam no business genius , but surely if you want to sell something , you need to let people know about it ?

Anyway , quick question for BeachAV8R

Did you get the full version or an upgrade ?

Cos I got the upgrade and the gfx quality is very similar to BS1 , I thought it would have looked much better

FYI: Direct to drive have BS2 for £14 at the moment

I wonder how many other forums you've signed up to in order to complain constantly OCUK and the ED forums weren't enough?

Nate

Unfair reply nate.

The poster you are refering to is quite within their rights to say what they want where they want. You can disagree to your hearts content. At least beachav8er said his bit refering to this in a polite manor.

Yours is nothing but a direct attack to discredit the poster in question. And that my friend is against forum policy.

You want to be a fanboi. Do it politely in the correct manor for the boards please.

Probably am registered on about the same amount of forums as the little minions of ED are
you know the type , get the goodies for free and do their best to suppress the opinions
of the actual paying customers.

I was just kinda dissapointed by ED's bait and switch moves.
They did it first with A10C, shove master server requirement in the final release without warning and removed Nevada.
Then instead of a patch for BS ..... they stuck a 2 on the end and went "SUPRISE" new "upgrade" product you have to pay for

The ED forums are completely useless for any decent conversations, posts get deleted left right and center
if they dont follow the party line eg ED can do no wrong / makes no mistakes etc

If ED are so desperate for cash , how come they have run their digital sim sales site for 3 years
without having the option of gifting a purchase to someone ? How tarded do you have to be to think
that it is a good idea NOT to have the ability to purchase for others ?

I want ED to survive and continue making sims but they are making it hard on
themselves with the way they are currently doing things.

Please highlight where I have been impolite. As for Direct attacks, I refer you to the First sentence above.

Nate

Hahahahaha no.

That's the thing......as in the real world, if one acts like a horses A$$, don't be surprised to get the carrot. There's constructive criticism offered in a polite, reasonable and mature manner and then there is the all-too-frequent rants and abusive, condescending talk by a few regulars who find Great Empowerment behind a keyboard.

Hey - if it's too much to ask that we conduct ourselves as mature adults for which this is a hobby and nothing more, then power to you. I for one am disillusioned by the tone of some who show an absolute lack of respect in their dealings with some of their fellow forum members, relying on the 'freedom of the forum' principle to spread their verse.

My Pity.

I qouted your post which highlights very clearly the negative connotations you embibe towards the poster in question. Quite frankly you are trying to label the poster as a habitual troll over various boards and that is not for you to do.

You are directly linked with ED and I would therefore expect more decorum from yourself. At least I wouldf do if I was directly employed by ED where you speak in volunes on their behalf.

This is not the ED boards, therefore be polite or simply leave. Either way there is no place here for your personal attacks.

You have been reported.

As for my post, and I reitterate. Be a fanboi all you want, or don't whichever is your choice. Just leave the personal attacks in your own forums.

This right here is what I am speaking about. The disrespect directed at a fellow forum member veiled behind a tone of condescension and arrogance is sobering, and that coming from a third-party to the conversation. Even more sobering is that it's an objective observation.........

You reported the post - why make a meal of it? You are not even party to the conversation.

You may have inferred that - I labelled nobody. I imagine shadowze is quite humbled that you are offended on his behalf and are defending his honour with such vigour.



I still fail to see where decorum is lacking. I am not employed by ED - I am a volunteer.



I still fail to see where I have been impolite. Nothing I have said is either vulgar or for that matter incorrect.



....



So it's ok for you to label me then is it?

Nate

Hi Viper,

I don't understand the problem.

A guy came on an had a rant (fair enough about something well ranted over in the past) and the only response was from a forum member, not countering his arguments with their perspective, but with a clear cut attack that this person is nothing but a troll.

All nate had to do (as i stated in my post) was to say his version if he wished to respond and there you have it.... adult conversation.

But, no, no adult ocnversation, just a out an out attack (against forum policy mind you). Irrespective of what nate says about the poster whether it be true or not, it should simply not be stated like that.

As i said, its not for you, nate or anyone else to demean this person. It is your right to disagree with them.

That is the difference.

Condesencion and arrogance are words easily dealt out. But in the exact way you abuse/accuse me, you have right now, done the same thing. Care to look at yourself in the mirror with those words you said.

Quite frankly, This was a valid thread with decent/important info and that all lead to pot by nate posting his post and the other bloke biting and going off on one.

All this does is lowers the respectability of this post or even gets it locked.

I am happy to discuss in a civil way in more detail between you and nate, why i have written this via PM or VOIP.

Hoever, and i will be 100% pedantic about this. ABUSE will not be tollerated by me, irrespective of the giver, receiver or bystanders.

Done.

I can only dream of the empowerment the likes of you get

Dont like what someone says in ED forum delete/edit post

I might not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it with my dying breath

Not so on ED forums , it just gets deleted. The BS2 release thread was epic for that, the mods
deleted tons of posts from un-happy people and then proceed to shout anyone else down who says
anything negative, a large proportion of posts in that thread are from ED testers/mods .... sad

FYI: Treat your customers with respect and they might show it back

Alright. Knock it off everyone.

Shadowze is entitled to his opinions even if most of them are wrong.

Don't discuss moderation of other forums. Don't bring a beef from somewhere else here.

-----

Now, getting back to the topic.

Let me put it this way. Strike Fighters 2 has been out for a couple years right? So the developer of that series now releases downloadable content in the form of add-on planes that run from $3 to $5 per plane. They are basically improved poly models of aircraft that either have been or could be created by modders. The cockpits are a bit better, but don't really add any functionality to the sim.

Compare that to the graphics upgrades that BS2 offers. The improvements to objects. The improved graphics with regards to environments (haze, shadows, etc..). Improved cockpit graphics. Improved AI (I noticed that one right away..my wingman is deadly and safer with his Vikhrs now).. New campaign, etc...

The full list of improvements: HERE..

So for all of those things I have to pay either $20 or $27 depending on which version (upgrade or stand-alone).. When I consider all of the work and upgrades I do not think that is an inordinate amount of money. I'm not biased for or against ED - I don't come into the arena with an agenda and call me naive but I never felt burned by them on anything. I'm an old enough simmer to realize that no sim will ever be complete. All will always have bugs, features that could be improved, or features that should be improved. My value for LOMAC, Flaming Cliffs, FC2, BS1, BS2, and A-10C have all been worth my money. Are they perfect? No. Are they the best sims ever released? Probably. I'm smart enough to not let nostalgia cloud my judgment. Yeah, Longbow 2 and JF-15 were great sims..but when I go back and play them now they are enjoyable but don't hold a candle to these modern sims. Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgment.

Shadowze clearly has an agenda (look at his sig).. While he is free (within the SimHQ TOS) to speak his mind, his presentation and lack of objectivity diminish his argument. I don't see a need to defend EDs business practices or their software - their success, and the awesome amount of fun that players are having with these sims are testament enough to their appeal. I played an hour of online BS2 this morning on someone's server. Played Dragon's Terrorist Hunt (?) mission with some guys in the A-10 and a few of us in the Black Shark. It was so enjoyable.

The graphics have never looked better. The fidelity has never been better. The FPS even on my 3 year old rig are great, and the mission design and interoperability with the A-10s was fantastic. There are some that will pick apart the flaws of the software (it will always have flaws) forever and chose to spend their time writing about it on message boards because they feel jilted for some reason. Then there are those that suggest improvements, voice their complaints, and move on to either enjoy or not play a sim. And then there are those (like me) that are so in awe of the fidelity of this sim that costs $29 (or even $40 or $50) that we squeeze the maximum enjoyment out of the sim and the flaws are afterthoughts. (Sure, showstoppers should always be fixed..) I've spent 10 minutes composing this reply...which is the maximum time I'll give to this thread when I could be doing other stuff.

Feel free to disagree, post your thoughts, but don't disparage other members, developers, or other sites.

BeachAV8R

Perhaps, however you labelled him as a "fanboi." Do you not at least see the irony?


As for the rest, well BS1 was released in December 2008 (English language download). How long do you reasonably expect to receive free updates for such a product, especially when the update includes as much new material as the BS2 update does?

Incorrect. Expressed as a percentage, the amount of posts deleted amounted to 1.5%, said posts in direct contravention of the forum regs.

Do the maths.



Again, incorrect - Read the thread.

At the very least ensure that any statements you make are capable of being verified as true. I have found your allegations wanting, again, and am at the very least forced to set the record straight, notwithstanding my desire to have no further dealings with this particular thread.

To the Admins - my apologies for further belabouring the issue.

So was your install of BS2 an upgrade one or a fresh full install ?


I am objective , Iam just trying to get my point across
$50 for BS1 + $20 for BS2 "upgrade" = $70 <- most expensive game I have ever bought

Fresh full install.

You should buy SB Pro PE...that will make $70 seem cheap. Sad thing is, I've only played about 3 hours worth of SB Pro PE... Not because it isn't any good..just haven't had the time. Someday I'll get my money's worth out of it I hope..

...And I think spending $350 on a HOTAS Warthog actually made DCS A-10C the most expensive game I've ever bought...

Too bad ED didn't make the Warthog though because I had to send it back for service just two months after I bought it (it is now in Canada being worked on..)

I think that BS2 is value for money at £14/$20 but don't necessarily like the way ED handled the release or the complete lack of communication.

What I really don't like about the whole thing is that as a purchaser of both the original BS and A10C, I already paid for the new engine and when this series of games were advertised as 'modular', you'd expect them to have some sort of integration out of the box. This wasn't the case hence why people who had already bought all DCS products had to pay 50% of a full price game for what is effectively 3% of increased functionality in BS2 compared to BS1 in order to see any integration at all.

The biggest potential problem is how ED manage future releases and this is the bulk of what became the outcry of the BS2 release. When other 'modules' are released people don't want to be forced to upgrade every other existing module to work with their latest and greatest as it will obviously become expensive and more-so as the series grows in size. With regards to ED mods on these boards, I've commented on their condescending comments before.

My observation is that people are never forced to do anything. You can buy and play BS1 for less than $15 and play it to your heart's content. Something has to fund future development and obviously ED feels confident that their customers will support continuation of the product line based on a valuation of the products they've already released. The customer will either continue to buy ED products or balk at future products based on their own assessment. Personally, I see a lot of value added (I don't know where you got 3%..?) When you spend 100% of your time in the sim flying around an improved virtual world, with improved graphics, improved ME capabilities, and improved AI..that adds up to more than whatever statistical side by side, line by line evaluation resulted in a 3% improvement from BS1 to BS2..

I'm curious what (I haven't done the math) the total expenditures for all ED products ranging back to Lock On to now would be and then dividing that over the lifespan of the series?

$20 per year? $40? More?

You're right....but in this case if you want to play this 'modular' sim, even if you've already purchased Black Shark and A10C, you have no other choice than to buy the 'upgrade' of BS2 to play a combined/integrated game of which you effectively already own all the required parts. It became an issue to some people that ED seemed to try and justify the additional cost as 'improvements'.



That's my estimate given how much of the game I already own and what is actually added in BS2.



Yeah, but that's subjective.......everyone has their own 'value' given to a particular game. Some people will put 800 hours into Call of Duty 2/3 multiplayer and state its the best thing since sliced bread because it only cost £40. In comparison to DCS that sort of figure could easily look like more value but I'm not going to go there lol

Like I mentioned, my own concern is not how much the series costs now or how much value I think its worth, but where the series will go with regards to future modules/upgrades and patches when there are 5 platforms available.

That's what you think a series of DCS calibre is worth? I'm of the opposite view - I'd be willing and glad to pay a little more if it meant they kept on releasing sims that set the standard every time it's released.

Don't like their pricing policy? Move along and shop somewhere else.
Don't like how they run their business? Move along to the next shop.

No-one is forcing you to buy it. If however you want to play it then suck it up or start up your own company to give them competition.

And please stop pulling numbers out without any type of data to back it up. I could easily say BS2 easily added 30% more to the game than BS1 in terms of graphics, bugs and in particular AI. You see what I did thar?

Hah. I never cease to be amazed by the ideas people have about software development. The 3% is a classic example. Or another classic: "I have no idea why they don't implement this feature: it should be so simple to do!"

I like reading Ssnake's comments in Steel Beasts forum regarding the development of their sim, technical issues, market and resource challenges etc. They seem to have nailed their business model and his feedback puts our niche hobby in a new light. John Venema's posts on their business model in Orbx forums have also been very elucidating. Frankly, I'm surprised that we still have such awesome sims coming out taking into account their ever growing complexity, which directly translates into growing cost, while the customer base doesn't seem to be exactly expanding on a matching curve. There was an interesting thread somewhere here about whether sims like DCS have become too complex for their own good, considering the significant time commitment it takes to master them even at the basic level.

Too complex, not complex enough, the truth of the matter is that extending the life cycle of older sims through paid upgrades/expansions has become the business model. I actually think it makes perfect sense: buy only as much as you need or can afford. Not interested in that particular plane DLC? Don't buy it. The paid upgrade doesn't include anything worth the money being asked? Don't buy it. But don't complain that nobody supports your 3-year old sim (or older) for free. In the current market, nobody can afford it. After all, nobody's asking for updates to last year's Madden NFL. Plenty of people will still buy the new version for the same prace they paid for last year's. 60 bucks. And it's those big guys' returns and development practices that determine the overall trend. As long as players/simmers will want their games/sims to have greater graphical and functional fidelity in the never-ending pursuit of "as real as it gets," the trend will continue. Like it or not. And compared to those mainstream games, we have to pay a premium for the niche that sims are.

Could ED improve their communications? Maybe. I really like how eSim Games and their PR man, Ssnake, handle their product, but I don't have much to complain about ED. The volunteers like Nate do a great job of handling the information exchange when it comes to product features. Regarding product cycle management, myself I can see as many disadvantages to announcing upgrades or new products early as there are advantages. People will always try to hold devs to promises they never made, and software develpment and its planning is complex enough. Finding out about a new project is exiting, but when the development is protracted, release dates/estimates pushed out, it's not fun anymore, so I actually prefer to surprises or announcements not very far in advance of a launch.

Last but least: I never understood why people insist on treating developers' forums as a place for free exchange of ideas, no matter how relevant, justified, or polite. They are not: they exist only insofar as to fill a business need, that is to provide knowledge base access and enable another avenue for customers to enjoy the product, that is through sharing their enthusiasm with fellow simmers and customers. Contrary to what you may believe, most of them are not public forums. Read the Orbx forum rules, for instance. While constructive criticism is appreciated, a lot of critics fail to understand the "constructive" part. Considering the amount of feature-obssessed posts and personal vendettas that don't contribute anything constructive, I don't blame vendors at all, though some of them may have deserved their notorious reputation (Ariane (FSX), anyone?). Have a critique to make? Please do, by all means, but in a polite manner. Don't flog the dead horse, don't call names or insinuate things. Most of us are tired of it.

3% - That's my estimate



If 30% is your estimate, fine. I'm not disputing your opinion or the value that you personally give a product like you're seemingly wanting to do with mine.

Hence the You see what I did thar? . It means nothing.

Otter, well said. ED did let the ball drop on communication with BS2 but I think it was worth 5 seconds of comments in passing to let ED know not a general call to up arms for the next crusade.

It means nothing? It's not meant to mean anything, it's simply my opinion - which is one of the main functions of a forum, it's full of personal opinions, just like review scores, just like commenting on whether something is good, bad, ugly or worthy or worthless. I'm not sure why you seem to think that something you don't necessarily agree with is invalid.

Before you get too exciteable and think this is purely to slag ED off, I've already stated that I think the outlay for BS2 is worth it. Regardless of what I think is a 3% increase in content, I also happen to think the 3% are in areas which are atmospheric (namely graphics) and in areas which make the benefits worthwhile. What I don't like as I've already mentioned is the way forward in which ED are travelling in which is a path of ridiculous outlay for anyone wanting an integrated and modular DCS series..........unless something drastically changes. Whilst it's good that ED acknowledge they can't continue in the way they have gone so far, it's also disturbing that at this stage they don't know which way they're going either.

My final post on this to be honest, I'm getting a bit fed up these days of any negative comments regarding DCS being jumped on and defended to silly levels by ED moderators and fellow simmers. It's getting to the stage that the Blackshark and DCS A10c threads within SimHQ are rapidly becoming the only places where people can't discuss both positive and negative points in an adult fashion.

I think you're missing the point - I'm saying both mine and your "numbers" means nothing. I'm not saying yours is any more invalid than mine. It's as you say - opinion. And as the saying goes: opinions are like a***holes, everyone's got one.

But enough with this pointless exchange. Otter made a post that's a lot more worthy to reply to.

So your complaint or concern is that ED improved the next version and that those improvements weren't backwards compatible and you are upset that you can't play the improved version for free? I'm sorry, but it sounds like one of those chicken or the egg arguments. If ED had never made BS2, would you be happy that there was no new version to pine over? (I know the answer to that - you think the new version should be a free patch..)


So what would you have been willing to pay? 3% of $20? 3% of $50? That seems fair to you when you compare DLC from other genres?


Well, without any continued profit, the series will go nowhere and they will probably become a military sector sim builder only. Just a guess on my part.

I respect that you don't think BS2 was/is worth the money, but having played it extensively the past few weeks I cannot disagree more. The solution, of course, is for you or anyone else that has concerns to wait for BS2 (full install) to drop in price over the coming months and years. Just because it is out right now doesn't mean you have to buy it. BS1 still works fine, for less.

BeachAV8R

AND



LOL..which one do you want to apply? You want to voice your negative opinion on BS2 and espouse your right to do so (and we allow that all day long here at SimHQ contrary to your assertions), but when anyone steps up to counter your opinion (as is their right according to the first part of your post) you throw up your hands and claim we can't discuss the positive and negative points in an adult fashion.

So I'm confused on whether you think forums ARE for personal opinions or AREN'T for personal opinions?

And once again I'll remind everyone that moderation or policies at other sites are NOT open for discussion here.

I'll answer your post as you have mis-quoted all of my previous........

Willing to pay?
You respect that I don't think BS2 is worth it?

I bought BS2 so I was obviously willing to pay for it. I also stated that I thought it was worth the outlay regardless of that in my opinion only 3% of new content/improvements were made over the original.

BS1 does still work fine, but it doesn't let you use the integrated environment of DCS A10C which I also own. My point here is that I paid for BS, I paid for DCS A10C.......yet I need to pay half the price of a new game to get 2 games which I already own to work together.

I don't expect to get everything for free, but this is now moving in a direction which has being discussed in other threads whereby ED originally stated they were creating a modular series. Creating what is in effect a new patch, labelling it as a new game by sticking a number '2' on the end of it has nothing modular about it whatsoever.

With regards to commenting on other sites moderation, I understand that and it's not in contention.......what is valid is behaviour and comments from the same people whilst on this site - SimHQ. What is strange and what I'm talking about here are people's ability to talk in an adult fashion regarding positive and negative issues. The DCS threads are becoming an area of SimHQ in which some people can't seem to be able to understand that a game they may like doesn't necessarily have the same outlook by others....that's fine in itself but whilst you won't find condescending and rude replies and comments from people like me you certainly do by others.

Ah. Well, the crux of the argument (and our disagreement) is that BS2 is just a patch. I feel that it is DLC since it added so much. A patch - in my opinion, fixes things that are broken. The upgrades that BS2 brings are significant and to me exceed the bar of being only a patch.

:shrug: I respect your right to have a different stance on BS2.

Anyway - I'm off to dinner, then a late night session of BS2 at about 2AM eastern. I gotta wait for my kid to go to sleep before I can multiplay or I just end up a flaming wreck on the terrain.



BeachAV8R

We do not want rude and condescending posts in our forums. Spirited discussion, disagreement, all of that is fine. I agree that name calling and insinuation have no place.

Problem is that often people seem to think they know what ED are thinking, or assign some evil motives to their decisions when in fact there is no such evil master plan. They are a business and their customers will vote with their wallet - both positive and negative. Their moderators, testers, and staff all have to play by the same SimHQ rules here. We give a lot of leeway to all sides..we only draw the line at insults and baseless accusations. It isn't, of course, a science however and if anyone has any problems or concerns feel free to PM myself or Doug.

We value all input.

BeachAV8R

I'm puzzled by all of the pissing and moaning about paying to enjoy your hobby. I bought BS1 shortly after it came out, in part to support further development by DCS. I never actually played BS1 all that much, but considered the money well spent to support the developers. I was gambling that the net result would be a larger choice of well-developed products over time.

So when BS2 was released, I was happy to spend $19.99 to support DCS, and am now playing a much improved product. I consider it one hell of a bargain.

I'm impressed with the improved atmospheric effects. The haze and clouds are particularly well done. The cockpit self shadowing and improvements to the cockpit are subtle, but really make a difference. I haven't explored closely the additional and improved 3D objects. And I'm not a mission builder so I haven't messed with the new Mission Editor features.

So is Windows 3.1 obsolete?

Is that ...

Flogging a dead horse
OR
"Smacking the Pony"

?

I'm thinking of a new simulation, it's text based and the idea is to see how long any statement on the forums degenerates into a mud slinging match no matter what the subject..

About 1 second by todays standards.

No, you spent $50 for BS1, and $20 for BS2 and you've got two games - BS1 & BS2. You can play BS1 and do things in it you can't do with BS2 (ie MP with FC2). You can play BS2 and do things in it you can't do with BS1 (ie MP with A10 et al.). So you spent $70 for 2 games. I dont' think $35/game is much to complain about.

There's the final answer I was looking for, what the differences are and what the benefits are Thank You Johnny, you win a Virtual Cookie!

I got the BS2 upgrade just for the updated terrain and cockpit graphics. I was hesitant to pay the full 20USD upgrade price, but with the recent discount (13 USD) the decision was much simpler.