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#3476719 - 12/18/11 05:24 PM Question for the Gurus
George1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 68
I have been making minor adjustments in some of the Simdata aircraft files for the past few weeks and it occured to me that I never see these changes take effect.

Today I ran some test that I consider quite severe just as a test of my suspicions. I copied the Block 40 data into a special folder and saved it and then I replaced the data in the simdata block 40 file with several other aircraft --- Cg, Cj and Dj models.

I looked on the net and the Cj and Dj models are the Block 50/52 series. The program data does not provide us with a block 50 file but I assume the Cj is the one.

There are differences between the block 40 and the block 50 in the sim. However I cannot get these differences to show up by substituting data from other models into the block 40 model.

I am wondering ---- it appears that changes in the data files are not having any effect on how they perform in the sim. They just seem to be a lot of numbers that look nice but do not have any effect on the performance of the various models in the sim.

How can this be. What does effect things like drag, lift, fuel flow, speed , etc.

In the old days a minor change in something like drag or fuel flow in the Simdata files would instantly show up in the sim.

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#3476734 - 12/18/11 06:22 PM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
George1 Offline
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Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 68
A second major test ----- I deleted all flight data from the block 40 simdata file except for the 3 lines of Identification at the top of the page and saved it.

This had no effect on the aircraft in the sim.

I certainly would have liked to have had the opportunity to at least adjust the roll rates --- they are to fast to suit me.


Edited by George1 (12/18/11 06:26 PM)

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#3476808 - 12/18/11 08:54 PM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
beng Offline
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Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 2
Did you check for an extra copy of simdata.zip in the game root directory? Delete it if it is there.

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#3476983 - 12/19/11 05:54 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
George1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 68
You hit the nail on the head ---- I found an unzipped file of flight model data inside the Falcon 4 BMS 4.32 folder tucked inside the Sim folder.

This must be the primary file that the aircraft are getting their data from.

Thanks a lot for the heads up.

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#3477014 - 12/19/11 07:18 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
Cali Offline
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Originally Posted By: George1


I certainly would have liked to have had the opportunity to at least adjust the roll rates --- they are to fast to suit me.


The real aircraft has a very fast roll rate.
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#3477709 - 12/20/11 09:09 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: Cali]
*Panther* Offline
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Loc: Nellis AFB, NV
Originally Posted By: Cali
Originally Posted By: George1


I certainly would have liked to have had the opportunity to at least adjust the roll rates --- they are to fast to suit me.


The real aircraft has a very fast roll rate.

+1
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#3477957 - 12/20/11 02:07 PM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
JCav Offline
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Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 51
Why on earth would you take such a wonderful FM and throw it out the window by tweaking values?

Something tells me they have much more accurate data for their FM values than you do.

That's like buying a Ferrari and then putting a minivan's engine in it.

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#3478086 - 12/20/11 05:41 PM Roll Rate
George1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 68
I am trying to adjust the roll rate in the F-16 data files.

I have played around with the roll rate multipliers and other variables that relate to roll rate and nothing I have done so far has made any difference.

I have my roll saturation setting in the setup menu set at large but I would still like to slow it down some more

Any ideas

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#3478092 - 12/20/11 05:56 PM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
George1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 68
EASY ANSWER --- I payed my hard earned money for a computer and the original F4 Cd and I fly my planes in any sim and set up the flight models to suit me.

Saying that the F-16 roll rate is fast is a qualifying word ---not a quantifying word. What is fast for one person may not be for another and too fast for another.

I have spent many years dogfighting with guns in F4 and close in combat is my preference. The current flight model does not lend itself to this. The plane is not controllable in quick breaks ---at least not as controllable as it has historically been.

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#3478314 - 12/21/11 04:10 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
JCav Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 51
Their source: NASA FM tests and the real FLCS coded line-by-line.
Your source: Anecdotal expertise based entirely on previous video games.

Good luck to you. Sorry that you'll be ruining your sim.

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#3478337 - 12/21/11 04:54 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
hansundfranz Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 812
Loc: Germany
A much better approach would be to edit the response curves of your joystick

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#3482733 - 12/28/11 08:41 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
mavjp Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 2
Originally Posted By: George1
I have been making minor adjustments in some of the Simdata aircraft files for the past few weeks and it occured to me that I never see these changes take effect.

Today I ran some test that I consider quite severe just as a test of my suspicions. I copied the Block 40 data into a special folder and saved it and then I replaced the data in the simdata block 40 file with several other aircraft --- Cg, Cj and Dj models.

I looked on the net and the Cj and Dj models are the Block 50/52 series. The program data does not provide us with a block 50 file but I assume the Cj is the one.

There are differences between the block 40 and the block 50 in the sim. However I cannot get these differences to show up by substituting data from other models into the block 40 model.

I am wondering ---- it appears that changes in the data files are not having any effect on how they perform in the sim. They just seem to be a lot of numbers that look nice but do not have any effect on the performance of the various models in the sim.

How can this be. What does effect things like drag, lift, fuel flow, speed , etc.

In the old days a minor change in something like drag or fuel flow in the Simdata files would instantly show up in the sim.


if you are talking about BMS, you will find two files

F16_block40.Dat (OFM) and F16_block40_afm.Dat (AFM)

The first one is used by the AI or if you select "simplified FM" in the option Tab

the second one is used by the new FM engine (except for engine data that are still read in the OFM file)...

so if you change values in the OFM and fly with Realistic flight model, you wont see any change.

you would need to touch AFM file to see impact on your FM, however, i strongly discourage you to do so and in any case , unlike the OFM , there is absolutly no way to control easily your roll rate from the dat file as the FLCS is hardcoded.

In short : The AFM is the result of 8 years development, i can garantee you that the roll rate behavior is absolutly spot on

cheers
jp

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#3482737 - 12/28/11 08:45 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
mavjp Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 2
Originally Posted By: George1
EASY ANSWER --- I payed my hard earned money for a computer and the original F4 Cd and I fly my planes in any sim and set up the flight models to suit me.

Saying that the F-16 roll rate is fast is a qualifying word ---not a quantifying word. What is fast for one person may not be for another and too fast for another.

I have spent many years dogfighting with guns in F4 and close in combat is my preference. The current flight model does not lend itself to this. The plane is not controllable in quick breaks ---at least not as controllable as it has historically been.



easy answer:

The flight model of the F16 in falcon4 as you know it is just a big joke and does not reflect at all the real F16 beahvior (despite my deseperate attempts with the HFFM).

That is exactly why 100% of the FM code has been rewritten from scratch - read FM articles on BMS website for better understanding.

Real pilots consider BMS FM equal or better than their pro simulator.

now , if you want to fly the "standard Falcon4 FM" as you were used to, just select "simplified" in the flight model option of the setup page :), this option has been set in order to let people like you chose what they like the most smile


Edited by mavjp (12/28/11 08:47 AM)

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#3484288 - 12/30/11 08:54 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
George1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 68
MavJP ----- thanks for the answer.

I have never been one that chases realisim. I have found it to be ambiguous and subjective after 13 years of flying F4. Every patch group has had their own idea of realisim and I get tired of pursuing it.

The current roll rate may be the most realistc that is possible but it hampers my years of training in close in combat maneuvering. I will either have to give up dogfighting or find a way to go back to what we had in the past.

Thanks again for the info

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#3486376 - 01/02/12 10:02 PM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
JCav Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/22/10
Posts: 51
Originally Posted By: George1


I have spent many years dogfighting with guns in F4 and close in combat is my preference. The current flight model does not lend itself to this. The plane is not controllable in quick breaks ---at least not as controllable as it has historically been.



The problem does not lie with the Flight Model...

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#3486438 - 01/03/12 12:56 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
Schwalbe Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 331
Loc: China
Not seeing a problem if one's altering files for his own... it's within one of falcon's merits to provide freedom and suit different ppl's individual preferences, or create addon mods even... long as no MP's involved or make reports about non-working stuff based on changed files.
Of course for most myself included the AFM is awesome and it's best for the pros like mavjp to handle it. But hey if you really really don't like it why not!~
my 0.02...

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#3486694 - 01/03/12 09:31 AM Re: Question for the Gurus [Re: George1]
Cali Offline
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Member

Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 708
Loc: Barksdale AFB, La
Originally Posted By: George1
EASY ANSWER --- I payed my hard earned money for a computer and the original F4 Cd and I fly my planes in any sim and set up the flight models to suit me.

Saying that the F-16 roll rate is fast is a qualifying word ---not a quantifying word. What is fast for one person may not be for another and too fast for another.

I have spent many years dogfighting with guns in F4 and close in combat is my preference. The current flight model does not lend itself to this. The plane is not controllable in quick breaks ---at least not as controllable as it has historically been.



Would a 360 roll in about 1 sec be fast for you?
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