I guess I was anxious because it's been years since the last release of a true tactical sim (Raven Shield). I can't believe I spent my money on this arcade nonsense! I should've learned my lesson with BF2 and COD: MW2. They were both so scripted and the action anything but tactical. Pure run 'n gun, twitch-reflex. Mindless. Cinematic -which is cool- but mindlessly. Follow the script/arrow, go here, go there, follow this guy. Unfortunately, I got itchy for something new, found $114 worth of nickels, dimes, pennies and quarters in a a dresser drawer, and went out and purchased the two new games. They are just as arcade as the last versions!

MW3 is better in single-player but the Multi-player action is as arcade as Unreal Tournament. It's like Doom or Quake. No thinking, no planning, no blue-prints or waypoints, just run around and shoot at everything that moves. I was bored in like five minutes. BF3 is better in multi-player but not much better.

I can't believe these games sell the number of copies they do. Scratch that. I do believe it. And it's sad. I guess there are a lot more 13 - 15 year olds than I ever suspected. I guess the industry just wants us grown ups to just go away. They certainly aren't making any realistic tactical shooters for us. These BF whatevers and COD:MW whatevers are to tactical shooters what the Need for Speed games are to auto racing sims, or HAWX is to any Eagle Dynamics military combat flight sim. They aren't simulations; they're action games. Even the Operation Flashpoint games are more realistic than these "movie" shooters.

The day Red Storm folded was the day the best of first-person shooter sims died. Now we have "games" instead of simulations. The world is going to hell in a handbasket and get off my lawn!

Yes, I'm an old guy.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Haha, Gunny .

Plainsman, have you tried the Arma series or Red Orchestra I (and II to a lesser extent)? You may find them more to your liking than COD or BF. It's too bad I didn't see this earlier because steam had a 50% off sale on RO yesterday ($20.00 for RO2 and $5 for RO1).

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

It's still in the Steam sale until tommorrow, I'm downloading RO2 now..

I agree that I would prefer games like the old days, and none now-a-days hold a candle to the classics... but I also feel no sympathy for those who bought BF3 or MW3 and hate it because it's the "same old run and gun" action shooter... because both series have been around for at least 10 years... you should know what your getting when buying a game in the series by now.

Have you tried it in DX10 mode?

They are nothing but rail shooters with movies attached, apart from the ARMA series, original OFP, the only other series that in my opinion was any good was Hidden&Dangerous! I can't play any of the MW or latter BF series games worth a damn, my game pad twitch reflexes are no good, but give me a game where a
Thought process, and some brain power is required I will do just fine

Cheers
Craig

They are total crap. Agree 100%. I wont be buying their future titles.

lol, some of you got some real posting style.

I agree.

I got suckered into the sale, and bought BF3...forgetting I had bought BF2 and deleted it after playing for about 5 minutes way back when that one first went on sale.

Installing BF3 was a major pain in the ass. It took me about an hour. It wanted log ins, registrations, then the installation kept stopping, then downloaded two other 3rd party software's. The multi player server browser is horrible and un-intuitive to use. Crashes alot. Then when I figured it out, the game always starts minimized for some reason. I didn't even know it was running. The game was hidden behind all the EA software running. Then when maximizing it, it likes to crash frequently.

Then there's the game play. Bullets start to fall to the ground after 100 feet, its like shooting a cork gun. RPGs and AT missiles move so slow, I can shoot one, then eat a sandwich, have the enemy sees me and shoots me, I go load the dishwasher and come back, then my RPG hits the target, if it hasn't driven off. The helicopter combat is ridiculous to see. And for some reason, I have to shoot someone 5 times with my 7.54mm battle rifle before they fall down.

The graphics are good, but it took me some time to figure out how to make the anti-aliasing work. You can't make out ANYTHING without that working. Thats its only redeaming feature. I'll probably boot this up if I'm drunk...too drunk to think straight.

I will stick to ARMA and Steel Beasts for my shooting needs I think.

I am playing BF3, just bought it as well. Aside from the lack of maps, Origin + the browser being used for a menu, it is a rather nice game. It was never meant to be realistic, I am not sure where you read that. I liked BFBC2 because it was easy to get into when I do not have time to play a more involving game. BF3 fills this role nicely. CoD is Quake in a somewhat real world setting, so I am not sure what you were expecting?

Red Orchestra 2 is better, but it is not up to par with Red Orchestra 1 (realistic BF type game).

Sadly, if you want a realistic shooter that is somewhat recent, Red Orchestra 2 with realism mods (to be released) and ArmA 2 are your only options, with ArmA 3 around the corner. ArmA does a lot of things right, but so much wrong at the same time. I wish there was another option to, but there isn't.

Ground Branch doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and that was the last chance for any Raven Shield/Ghost Recon type game...

Also, since you didn't research these two games, I will tell you now: Don't buy Rainbow 6: Patriots or Ghost Recon: Future Soldier! They are CoD/BF type games and not tactical shooters.

Arma2/OA is far from realistic. Anyone that says so must never have actually played it. In my view, Arma2/OA feels more like a tech demo than a game. Don't get me started on the clunky interface/UI.

But the good thing is that the Darkest Hour team finally decided to go indie. They said they aren't going to go the RO2/TWI route, but stay true their roots and produce what their fans love: fun ass realism.

Agreed on MW3 and BF3 being more updates to the older versions than anything.

I bought COD4 and enjoyed the on-rails single player FPS live action movie due to some of the cool scenes you get to take part in (AC130 and sniper mission) but when I tried online it was obviously not my type of MP game, all run and gun and 'nade spamming. So I have avoided all the COD games since including MW3 especially since they focus only on the MP and haven't even bothered to make the singleplayer have the wow factor that COD4 had.

For BF3 I bought it and it is the same fun MP game that BF1942 and BC2 was, in this series the realism loses out to game balance and I find it a pretty good game pretty much like BF1942, BF Vietnam, BC2 but with amazing sound and graphics since I get to run it on Ultra. Sure some things need tweaking (MANPADs need buff and IR scopes need nerfing) but overall a very fun more modern version of what made all the previous games in the series fun.

Arma2 is fun too but in a very different way, more realistic but it also takes much longer time to get organized and travel to the AO, so definitely not a pickup and play game like BF3 for me.

RO2 is also fun but it was released so buggy that I am waiting for significant patches to come revisit it.

I think overall all of the above mentioned games were well previewed and in the BF3 case there was even an open beta, so I think most people that are surprised with how they play must not have read up on them ahead of buying, they all seem to be trying to dumb things down a bit to appeal to the billions of COD fans, but usually they still try to stick with the gameplay that made the series fun.

BF3?
Crashes every night.I get 3 different types of crash of varying severity.It's so annoying.
I have trouble actually playing the game.Everyone uses me for target practice,or so it seems.My flying stinks.My tactics stink.
I started with a KDR of 1.0,now it's 0.6 and dropping.

However at the moment I'm not playing anything else.I love this game despite the flaws.
I think the whole browser interface is great.I'm not sure why people hate it.

MW3?
Never played any of them and never will.

I wouldn't even call BF3 an upgrade, it's Battlefield for Dummies when you compare it to BF2, just another game in the "that's too difficult or has too steep of a learning curve, delete it!" line of modern shooters.


Buying either of them and expecting anything other than arcade shooters with modern gun skins is also pretty foolish, it's not like they are trying to hide what they are.

ARMA II is gonna be your best bet for tactical games, next would be H&D II

BF3 is so bad i am done with the entire series. Mindless crap.

RO2 Full SDK will be released later this week or early next week (it was delayed from last friday because of some nagging small issues). Once it is out, it won't take long for the modding community to make an RO2 mod or two to your liking. Because of ArmA and RO2's mod-friendly architectures believe they will long outlive the CoD/MW games. In addition to the large number of gameplay tweaks that modders will be making for RO2, there are also a number of total conversions planned...See here: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=54779 These include an official expansion covering the Pacific theatre, a WWI mod for 1916 and a Vietnam mod. These are all likely months away since the full SDK is not out yet but the horizon is bright. In the near-term, TWI devs have confirmed that they are beta-testing at least 2 new official maps for the first content patch.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

P.S. Thanks for the tip on Hidden & Dangerous II...I may just pick that one up (I had never heard of it before).

H&DII is one of the best games ever made.

I'll second that

I was going to say the same thing...recently played it all the way thru (previously only had played the demo for the first one back in....99?). Anyways, they got just about everything right IMO. It was like Ghost Recon meets OFP/Arma!

I loved H&D2. Also look for the Sabre Squadron addon for it that added only a few new missions but they were all very big and well done.

I also loved and played to death the first H&D and its addon, but being 1999/2000 releases are very dated now.

H&D was sort of like "WWII Arma w/smaller maps but far better indoor combat". The vehicle stuff was even clunkier than ArmA's vehicles, to the extent that I prefer fighting on foot to the vehicles every time (in Arma I do like the vehicles sometimes), but the infantry stuff was top notch.

Unlike Arma, where what you can carry is dictated by the number of slots you have, in H&D2 you have weight limits as well, so while you may have the ROOM to carry AT launcher, sniper, and AT mines, your guy won't move an inch holding that stuff.



The Jedi Master

you don't have to be an old guy to appreciate realistic tactical shooters and despise arcade nonsense, you just have to have some standards, taste, and a mind of your own not to be easily swayed by hollywood-esque trailers and bass-heavy soundtracks.

and no, i won't apologize if this hurts people's feelings. that's their problem, not mine. and it's the difference between a gamer who appreciates something because for its artistry and innovation and a gamer that uses games as a way to waste their time.

So johncage... got to ask... since your hellbent on sharing your "I hate everything, you guys are mindless for playing it" crap in almost every thread you post in here at SimHQ... besides the classics which most agree are the greatest tactical shooters ever... Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six orginals... what tactical shooters do you think are great and play... (and if you say Red Orchestra, I'm going to puke all over my screen... thou a GREAT game, it is not as tactical as some of you like to claim, lol, IMO)


You see, I don't mind your comments here in a thread like this, where the original poster don't like the games mentioned and wants validation from others, lol... but you, visit the Battlefield forum alot, and if someone shares a cool video they made of BF3 or makes a crazy comment about something funny that happens, you like to sabotage the thread with your one liners.. "That sucks", "mindless crap", etc etc... (I know because I have all your one liners saved. lol.)


I've followed you since joining SimHQ... you joined when that IL2 COD game came out and it brought alot of... well classless posters here... then I watched you migrate from that forum to the land and armor combat games... I've NEVER seen a positive post from you since you join... so again, I got to ASK... what tactical game do you play and like? (and are you really just 12 or maybe 12 and a half?)

We don't need no stinking style!

I don't mind the COD or BF games. And don't kid yourself, it's not just 13-15 year old's playing them. Not even close.

I do despise their success though because every time a shallow game like MW3 sells a billion copies another nail is put in the coffin of any developer being interested in producing something like H&D2, etc.

It's a vicious cycle we are stuck in right now. Every shooter is like the last and at this point COD is making it's money off it's name. There's no other reason to explain the ridiculous sales of MW3, which is nothing more then an expansion back at best. Eventually, I pray, people will get bored with these games and some actual innovation will take place.

With MW3 and BF3 you should know, either through reviews or previous history with both franchises what you are getting into. That being said I still enjoy them, though I haven't picked up MW3 yet and may not until it is lower $$. BF3 can be some great fun with friends and voice comms..it was never meant to be realistic or tactical in the sense we refer to when referencing the classics. But you can still have a blast with your friends and you can still coordinate some in game strategies and tactics with your squad and have a good time. Yes it can be frustrating spawning in and immediately be killed or being sniped constantly...but it's all in good fun (and it helps if you find the right servers to play on!).

I fear we may never return to the days of the classics..unless through mods or other means. The days of the original r6 series and H&D are gone I fear. Consoles are driving the sales..and the last console game I played that I thought came closer to the tactical side (at least in idea and intention) was full spectrum warrior...though it was not an FPS and kinda canned in what you could do..

BF3 is good fun online if you find a good server. And it certainly is a game that rewards tactics. I sometimes get the impression that a lot of posters here do not actually like games, but would rather complain about everything and dream back to "the good old days" with rose-tinted glasses. Rainbow 6 relied much more on learning the enemy positions by trial and error than it ever did on actual tactics.

The thing that I personally like about BF3 is that a well-organised squad with comms, a mixture of classes and support from each other will always come up trumps against the kind of standard 'mindless crap' that the average non-simming squad can muster.

We should be the exact blueprint of a squad that no-one wants to come up against. When played 'properly' it's thoroughly rewarding.

Best times playing any of these (Arma, BF3, MW Series, and so on) is with a bunch of guys workin as a team. Thats one of the main reasons of getting together with these SimHQ guys....(when I have free time, if ever)

SlackAdjuster

EXACTLY! I’ve mentioned many a time to the SimHQ administration that BF3 comms currently suck and that I can have the SimHQ BF3 server TeamSync enabled in about two minutes.

They don’t seem to want it!? ...

Here are some (not many) servers that do ...

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/17956-how-to-play-battlefield-3-pc-with-in-game-voip/

Thanks for the link, I'll be investigating that