Anyone? I've played most modern flight sims from F4AF to Black Shark. Anything I can fire a round or two off in and i'm pretty sure i've at least had a crack at it.

So I was sitting thinking whilst setting up a dogfight for lomac fc2 in f-15's with the older Aim9P's goin up against some F-5's, "wouldn't it be great if we had a very detailed combat sim focusing on the F-4 (at a very long push the 2 seater variant to fly with online buddies) with a loverly flight model". Bringing back some of those dogfight moments of WW2 to the more modern era. Preferably including a naval model for carrier ops.

I've had a go on Wings over Vietnam but got a little bored in the end. Didn't feel right and lacked the customisation and online support I was looking for.

I dunno, maybe I'm just wildly ranting because having seen what BS/FC2 and ROF can do with flight immersion these days, I'm just hoping there's something in development or already out there of that caliber. It's got to be one of the easier aircraft to create a sim for as well given the amount of info available for it and one of the most interesting considering that it has seen action in many air forces / air arms in many conflicts.

Yeah so... in short, anyone know anything about one out there or in dev. Even a cracking mod for WoV converting the Flight model and gameplay? Ta

Try YAP2 for Strikefighters or FreeFalcon 5
Cheers,
Keith

er
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7SyUhuEFZU

wow. how did I miss this?!!!

thankyou

That was my reaction! (missed it too).

'Went to the Free Falcon site.

Do I understand correctly that I need the original Falcon 4.0 in order to 'run' Free Falcon?

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

A2A Simulations F4 in development:

http://www.a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18425

Nope. FF5 does not require the original F4 CD.

HomeFries,

So, it's just a download?

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

How is YAP 2 going to make flying the F-4 any better in WoV? The real upgrade is to fly the SF2 series with much better cockpits, etc. However, the limited multiplayer from SFP1 is completely deleted in SF2, so that would be the showstopper. Of course, the operation of the radar remains simplified as well, but there has never been a combat flight sim that attempted to model pre-digital radar functionality. But I totally don't get the "lacked the customisation" comment. What aspect of a Third Wire SF series sim (SFP1/WoX or SF2) can't be customized and isn't already available at combatace?

Falcon 4 based mods for the F-4 don't impress me much. The SF/SF2 series is by far the best at modeling the F-4, its weapons, and other aircraft of its generation. I would rank Janes Fighters Anthology as 2nd when modified with the appropriate lib files to fix the flight models, though it has horrid graphics and even more simplified cockpits and avionics. Janes USAF would be the next with great graphics for the time but horrible flight modeling.

I don't see anyone ever releasing a dedicated F-4 sim that would make me happy: fully clickable pits for pilot and co-pilot/RIO/WSO as well as an equally detailed model of the F-4's principal opponent, the MiG-21.

I am curious to see how well the flight model works for the Accusim F-4 in development. But, I think Third Wire sims are capable of much higher fidelity in the flight model category. The problem is that it takes too much time and effort to get the necessary data and translate it into basic co-efficient tables. The F-4B flight model I did for SFP1 SP2a (service pack 2a) was remarkably close except from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2, but later revisions invalidated some of my work, especially the high AoA departure behavior. Kreelin and Fubar contined to work on newer FMs, but I never verified their accuracy against the flight manuals and NASA data.

Streakeagle,

When you are referring to the Falcon 4 mods for the F4 are you talking about Free Falcon?

I'm asking 'cause I've never used Free Falcon.

I agree with your point re a dedicated F-4 sim; as this is my favorite 'cold war' aircraft I can still hope!

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

The truth is that a new, dedicated F-4 sim needs to be developed in detail.

The number of people that "need" a dedicated F-4 sim is so small that it will never be done. If anyone was to do it, I would think it would be as a part of the DCS series. But they are principally doing aircraft that are currently flying so that they can make money selling high-end versions as actual trainers for air forces. I had always hoped that TK would gradually extend his "sim-lite" SF series towards being a more realistic sim. In some ways he has, but in other ways he has not and probably never will go down that path.

must, say the A2A thing looks very impressive. glad my post promted a little response. I am not alone

You are correct, Sir!

Exhausted,

Agreed; I would think that developers/designers would be hesitant to put out a single type sim in this economy as opposed to a 'survey' sim with a wider selection of A/C to choose from.

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

Being a huge F-4 Phantom fan (even got a Spooky tattoo) i would love to see a F-4 sim, something like the coming DCS: A-10 sim.

With the tools being released by ED with the DCS series, there is nothing stopping someone from making a 3rd party F-4. Realistic flight dynamics, working cockpit, etc. You could even create Vietnam with the terrain tools. So, who's got the time/energy to do it?

A few years ago there was a dedicated F-4 study sim in development called "Rhino". Unfortunately when the demand in the flight sim market fell way off the development stopped Real shame as this sim looked to be in the same caliber as Falcon 4.0

I was on the 'Rhino" team (I was the 3D artist). It was a fantastic concept that could have resulted in a real classic. Alas, such a product requires a huge amount of time and effort, neither of which we were able to commit to the project.

I haven't given up on the project entirely (http://www.yankee-station.net), and I would love to put a team together to prototype some of the tactical aspects of the simulation. If there are any programmers out there who wouldn't mind having their brains picked (ouch!) on the subject of tactical AI programming, let me know!

Richard J

OMG! Are those screenshots or renders? They look fantastic and if I could do one of the posts you require I would jump at it (I can't though unfortunately).

Hi MaceUK33,

The shots on the website are renders. However, the models are all low polygon, realtime models designed specifically for the project. They were all built quite a while ago, but the CVN-65 model is about 70k polygons (inc. static aircraft), and none of the aircraft models shown are more than 16k polygons. Only the diffuse reflection (in the carrier shot) and the soft shadows would be difficult to do in realtime. Everything else would work fine within a modern graphics engine.

Richard J

Hi 4EyedFlyer,
I wanted to post a link to the old "Rhino" site but I knew it was gone for sometime now. Would love to see this sim released. You might want to give a shout to Buddye1 here or at the A2A BoB 2 WoV site. They have done some wonderful things with the tactical AI for BoB 2 WoV maybe he can help?
Cheers

Wow! Looks Great!

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

I Google'd Free Falcon 5 but every page I found says that you have to install Falcon 4 first from the CD.

I would love to see Yankee Station completed. I would be one of the very first to buy it. However, having followed flight sims almost religiously since Jane's Fighters Anthology, I am less than optimistic. I know of several projects that have been in development for years, and have yet to be released.

The advantage to doing a Vietnam era sim over a modern one is the quantity and quality of information available. The fidelity of the flight models and avionics is only limited by the hardware and development budget. But it is a two-edged sword. The potential customers have access to the same information and will be disappointed to discover that game-design compromises and/or development budget limitations have crippled or eliminated some highly desired feature.

As there is already a "sim-lite" Wings Over Vietnam/Strike Fighters 2 Vietnam game available, Yankee Station would need to be equal or better in nearly every category. There are several weak points to SF2V that could be exploited: flight model fidelity, carrier ops detail, avionics complexity/realism, mission editor, mission recorder, terrain detail, and multiplayer. While I would personally prefer a full Falcon 4.0/clickable cockpit type environment, having the detail and fidelity of Lock-On Flaming Cliffs 2.0 would be a more realistic goal given the "survey sim" design. If anyone can pull off making a Vietnam combat flight sim to at least the standards of LOFC2, I will be a very happy flight simmer

Good luck!

Ditto.

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

The honest-to-God truth is that doing an F-4 sim has huge advantages.

First, the F-4 covers a huge time period from 1957-2010.

Second, many, VERY many, countries from all over the world used the plane.

Third, a sales model, not too unlike that of Rise of Flight could be developed*

* I say not too unlike Rise of Flight because I still expect a new sim to be past the beta stage and not have terrible, counter-effective DRM. But packages of new planes can be sold for both single and multi-player gameplay.

Fourth, It is a good way to blend an achievement based flight sim, like FSX, with a combat flight sim, like Lock On or SF2.

Let me specify my last point: If you follow the F-4 experience from it's first flights and into combat you can unlock achievements, which would then unlock new missions, planes such as the MiG-17F, and new variants of the Phantom II for single player.

Say, you follow a story mode that exclusively has to do with non combat flying. Each mission gives you a certain amount of points that will unlock something special. Here's a little outline of how story mode will work.

-Mission 1: It's 1958. Take the XF4H-1 on it's real life maiden flight. You get 10 points for following the waypoints correctly and surviving.
-Mission 2: Take the Phantom II out for it's first carrier trials. You do a couple of touch and goes and finally trap. You get 20 points for this one.
-Mission 3: 'Project High Jump' You take a modified F-4B out and attempt to set the same, or similar record for altitude. Get more then 80,000ft you get 5 points, get 98,000 ft, you get 10 points, and if you get more, then 99K, or survive this flight, you get 15 points.
-Mission 4: 'Project Sageburner' Fly 900+ mph at less then 125 for 3 miles. 10 points.
-Mission 5: Complete mock-dogfight with XF8U-1. 5 points. If you win, 15 points.

50 points unlocks Cuban Missile Crisis mini-campaign.
70 points unlocks A-4C and a couple of pre-made missions for single player.

Completion, or attempted completion of those 5 flights unlocks a 1965 campaign with the USN, USMC, or USAF.

Other challenges, such as not shooting down an enemy aircraft without following the ROE in those first campaigns can reward you with access to a certain MiG-17 or MiG-21 model for single player. The real prize for surviving the Navy campaign is access to a Top Gun mini-campaign.

Flying careful, and effective CAS missions as a Marine in the Tet Offensive will give you points for the amount of supplies destroyed and enemies killed, as well as friendlies not killed. Get enough points and you score the RF-4B and some missions for it.

The idea is use the simulation to create gameplay in a way that keeps you trying to unlock achievements and bonuses. This is unlike other flying games that create gameplay by using power-ups or health icons you can just fly into. You start out at the beginning, and new stuff comes quick as you play. But the best stuff is always a challenge to get.

If you want to unlock the Wild Weasel campaigns of Vietnam then you have to unlock it. Same thing goes for recon missions and Weasel missions in the Gulf.

If you want to try Phantom ops with the Royal Navy then you can. If you want to try the 6 Day War, then you can do that too, but it must be unlocked. The ultimate prize is a decent, Falcon-style, Cold War Gone Hot scenario.

Regarding the sales model, add ons for the F-105, A-7, or F-8 ops can be sold in packs. Same thing for MiG-23s and other 'Red Ops.'

I absolutely hate buying a "sim" and then having to earn points to fly/drive what I want the way I want. Racing games are terrible about this. The first thing I do is look online for the necessary cheats to bypass all that crap. If such a system is implemented in a flight sim, it should be a selectable form of gameplay, just like choosing between campaigns and single missions. In fact, I would call that style of play a campaign option.

If it is going to be done one aircraft at a time, that is very close to the DCS model of doing business. The only things I don't like about the DCS series is that it is quite a long time between releases and they have yet to release an aircraft I want. So if someone else provides a similar product, but covering the F-4, MiG-21, etc. rather than a modern attack helicopter and an A-10, they will get my time and money.

I don't know if you've played ArmA or ArmA2, but they have a points unlocking system for missions and weapons, and it rules. In the mission builder you can still/drive/fire/fly anything, but for gameplay aspect, the points system, if there's already some good meat there before, is a good way to go.

I don't want to 'unlock' anything; for me, it feels like I'm not getting my money's worth if I have to do that. I remember when Fleet Defender came out - while flying it (and I still do...) and switching to the back seat to work the radar - I thought how cool it would be if this was applied to an F-4 Phantom sim....

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

I have ArmA and ArmaA2, but prefer the open missions of OFP. I am the paying customer. Why should I have to play 6 missions I could care less about to unlock the one I want to play? My free time is extremely limited. If I wanted to deal with hassles like unlocking features I already paid for, I would play console games. I want sims not games. Falcon 4 has settings that let you scale it down to arcrade level play and I am sure there are some people out there that like playing it that way, but I like full realism and can put the settings to reflect my taste. The job of the software developer is to deliver a product I want, not get me to buy his program and play the way he wants. As I said above, make the style of gameplay optional so everyone can play the way they want. If gameplay is not optional and doesn't give me what I want, my dollars don't come out of my wallet.

Because the story of the F-4 is a fasinating one indeed! The challenge of learning to fly that bird right, on full real settings, developes skill in that bird. Flying significant missions that are rewarding should be the meat of the sim. I'm not talking about that hollow Thirdwire BS, but a real simulator. I understand that you don't like not having 100% control over the features of the game, but truth be told, the idea for the game I have is similar to real life because testing of the F-4 had to be done long before that sled went into combat. It should be like that in any "full-real" sim of the bird as well.

If you want a full real settings sim of the F-4, then you would not get what you wanted Streak.... you would get something that you would probably not have much of an idea what to do with.

I was followiwng Rhino for SimHQ. Though this is the first time I've ever posted about it. I was asked to keep silent, so I did. I saw some of the advance work posted on this site. It was looking to be a real classic, too. Shame it didn't get any farther than it did.

Miao, Cat

The F-4 is my favorite AC. I would absolutely love a sim dedicated to the F-4 to include campaigns/missions for Vietnam/Gulf War on the level of Falcon4.0/DCS.

SFV2 is nice, but is not as nearly as indepth as I would like.

I don't think there will be more indepth sims like Jane's F-15, Jane's F-18 & Falcon 4.0. Because the makers of Flightsims don't see those kind of simulators profitable. Sadly

I would agree - there is NO chance of a commercial in-depth sim for any aircraft that is not in the front-line of public conciousness. The DCS a-10 will be the closest...

Meanwhile has anyone tried the add-on Phantom cockpit for FF5 by Aeyes?
See here

It looks very comprehensive, and I think that with a bit of effort a very passable Phantom environment could be created within FF5.
There are additional appropriate theatres available and we can all create appropriate missions.

???

Edit: Look at this FF5 manual there are several pages on the Phantom cockpit, including a Ramp Start procedure

Cheers
Keith

PS FF5 does NOT require a Falcon 4 CD, no matter what the website may say.

What is FF5?

Holy Cr*p! Free Falcon has morphed into quite a project and it's all free! Wow! I have been way out of the Falcon 4.0 loop for a long time, but did purchase some cockpits from Aeyes and can tell you they are exceptional works of art. May have to look at opening this game up again. Thanks for the insight.

Matt

FF5 is Free Falcon 5, the latest update to Falcon 4, which includes multiple other aircraft.
See comment
here at SimHQ.
Drawback is lots of the systems are hardcoded to the F-16. e.g you don't get to operate your own flaps, the radar is too sophisticated for the F-4 etc etc.

But in many ways it knocks the socks off all the other modern sims.

Cheers,
Keith

Thanks for the information

The link had died... Apparently the webhosting expired with the new year. Another promising title disappearing into history unfinished/unreleased.

Hi guys,

Yes, I've let the Yankee Station website expire. There has been no movement on the project in a long time, and at this point, I don't think there ever will be. I really wanted to bring a realistic, in depth, innovative combat simulation to you guys, and it's hugely disappointing that I've been unable to accomplish that.

Yankee Station was a pretty unconventional concept. Based on historical mission data (several million rows of data, actually), it would have featured an unprecedented number of accurate missions (flown by 30 types of aircraft) that the player could participate in. Above all, I wanted YS to be an incredibly detailed simulation of the tactics and combat environment over Vietnam / Laos, with realistic alpha strikes on the big targets up north, proper FAC control of strikes in the south (with the FAC providing full sitreps, target location relative to marker smoke, run-in directions, ordnance usage, TIC comms/support), and realistic navigation (TACAN, Bullseye etc...). I also wanted realistic and dynamic mission evolution, where occasionally a strike, CAP, or road recce could turn into a full rescue attempt for a downed friendly pilot. Things like that would allow the player to feel a great sense of achievement.

YS wouldn't have been a particularly mod-friendly sim, due to the strict adherence to historical accuracy. There would have been no free-flight in the combat zone (so the only way to see North Vietnam would have been with people shooting at you, just as in real life). I really wanted to go for the 'sweaty palms' side of air combat, paying close attention to those things that provide a real sense of accomplishment, and not spending so much time on the more mundane procedural stuff (IMHO, the full engine startup thing gets a little boring after a while, and could also create mission timing problems).

Ultimately, I would like to have added a number of flyables to the core product. Along with the F-4 and F-8, I planned to have A-6s (for the night and all weather work), A-4s (just because they flew so many varied missions), A-1s (for a complete SAR themed add-on), and perhaps even a FAC add-on.

I'm going to leave my options open with regard to YS, but for now I've spent too much time and money on it, and there are other things I need to do.

Regards,

Richard J

Sorry to hear that Richard sounded promising - best of luck for the future.

I'f only I could win that lottery to set up my flight sim company . . .

One of the saddest things in flight simming is the lack of a dedicated, high-fidelity Phantom sim. Freefalcon 5.55 (Falcon 4.0) does provide an alternative. I like the Strike Fighters series Phantoms as well, and in some ways I think they are a better representation of the Phantom than FF5, but the overall simulation- campaign, systems, etc.- that Falcon provides tips the scales in favor of FF5 for simulating the Phantom right now.

I have a couple of videos that show a bit of Phantom flying in Freefalcon.

Here is a beta test of the Israel Theater of Operations 2 that I shot, a dogfight between a Phantom and MiG-21:
http://vimeo.com/20141687

I also did this video a while back where I dubbed the audio from a video someone posted up showing Phantoms and Bucs doing traps to some beta video of the Freefalcon 5 Phantoms; lots of carrier landings:
http://vimeo.com/4672408

I do find the Phantoms in Falcon fun to fly, and I do feel like I get my Phantom fix, but I really would have loved to see a sim built from the ground up focusing on the Phantom.

Alas, all of my work on creating a Vietnam theater for Freefalcon was destroyed when PMC decided to go payware. That is a whole other story.

See ya,
Toonces

For all the limitations of the SF series, flying an F-4 in Falcon 4 (or any of its derivatives) makes about as much sense as flying an F-4 in LOMAC/FC/FC2. Even with "lite" avionics, the SF2 F-4 is far more realistic. Falcon 4 is an amazing achievement and with all the updates has stayed really current. But I would never use it to fly anything other than what it was designed: the F-16 Fighting Falcon. Too many of the systems are hard coded to represent only the F-16. The F-16 external 3d model looks great in LOMAC and thanks to that games superior network code, it is the sim of choice for the Virtual Thunderbirds. But no matter what the 3d model looks like, the guts of any plane in LOMAC/FC/FC2 have to be one of the existing flyables. I know the others aspects of Falcon 4 probably make it the greatest combat flight sim of all time. But I have no desire to fly what is essentially an F-16 reskinned to look like an F-4... yuck! Much of the SF2 game engine could act as a framework for building a hard core F-4 sim. But there is no profit in doing that, so no one is ever going to do it. I am just happy that Destineer fronted WoV and WoE, which allowed the series to evolve into its current much improved state. It is a shame that an indie company like Third Wire can't team up with a group like the guys that do Falcon BMS to produce a superior product at a fraction of the cost and time. But a combination of legal issues and the inability to have a strict production schedule when relying on unpaid volunteers make such a thing impossible.

If Yankee Station had met all its design goals and been released this decade, I would have been one happy camper. Sad to see another great flight sim concept fade into the history of what might have been.

Well there's nothing stopping anyone from crowdsourcing an F-4 sim.