A major problem for sims in general has been development overreaching.

A design concept gets going and the seems to overtake the ability of the developer to complete it before business considerations call for a premature relese, stripping of features, or failure to eliminate bugs.

Lack of tools and information, and even the nature of the files in the program can impede end user mods and repairs.

In the end, little is gained by being unrealistic in what can be done in a set amount of time.

Developers need to re-think thier strategy.
A broken blockbuster title is much less appealing than the little sim that does what it does, very well.

Years later, folks are still having fun with EAW, and it's hardly cutting edge in any respect.
Realism takes you only so far. There has to be some sense of transport to a different place. A fun place. Or a historic place.

But then again, if your reputation and street cred are good, you have a proven track record of support for your product, I think charging more is reasonable.

Quality and support are worth a premium.

The program runs well? Check.

I delivers on all promised features? Check

No major bugs? Check.

Bugs that do exist get patched in a timely maner? Check.

I'll pay a premium for that, nothing less.

The inability of developers to cover those four points is bad for the genre in general.

Give me a $75 sim that delivers the goods over a $40 one that I will spends weeks or months waiting on patches for, or is incomplete.

If it's very complex and accurate in it's representations, or subject matter, even more.

Some (very few) developers I trust. Those I do earned it. They never let thier customers down.
I'll happily pay them more, I'll have confidence in the value for dollar equation.

Burn me once, and leave me hanging, and I'll need half a dozen solid positive reviews before I consider them again.

The last thing hurting the genre, Osram mentioned, and it's worth emphasising.

There is room for "sim light" in this genre. They shouldn't be looked down upon.

Having the genre populated by only harcore sims, their developers, and fans, is bad for the entire market.

Sims probably will never be the "Walmart" of gaming. It is realistic to expect low volumes so a business has to be very careful in this market. Its kind of a uniquely American idea though that you have to sell a billion widgets to be successful. Most of the IL2 crowd (of which I below) hates all things Mac, but Apple has been very successful with its "niche" in the PC market.

There are a couple things that I think will keep the market going (others have mentioned these also)
1. A solid game engine that is licensed to whoever.. This enables lower cost developement
2. Consistant updates. This is what keeps me going. I don't have to have a new game all the time, but regular updates keep it fresh, and don't cost the developer nearly as much as new game engines (Again, IL-2 comes to mind)
3. Open game add-ons. This allows 3rd parties to keep the genre robust. I pretty much only play IL2 (would play a wwI sim if there was one of equivalent quality), but it would be nice to allow more add-ons, with switches in game if you don't want to allow any or specific mods for online play - think like Unreal Tournament.

Right. As a long-time Unreal and Unreal Tournament player I can tell you that I spent way more hours/days/weeks/moths/years for playing UT online. Especially the modding communities take care for long term gaming fun.
Even oldies like UT are still great if you play mods like "Infiltration", the most realistic real life and contemporary fps sim I know. The mod starts to grow old but if you consider the game's age, it's a good result, I think.

A real problem is that flightsims don't have strong modding communities (I'm not talking about FS200X and X-plane) that could spice them up for a long time and get the most out of the graphics engines.
If you are realistic there's no "civil driving sim" sim either. Most of the games deal with Rally, Formula One, Nascar or other non daily driving situations
How many people are playing driving school sims?
Hardcore sims like Richard burns Rally are excellent pieces of software but most of the gamers want to play games without reading a 300 pages manual that today come as pdf files, not as a book anymore.

To live in a niche is always the same, so let us not despair but make the best of it.

And I think it's nthing new that games are made for profit, profit and profit. Of course in conjuction with graphics cards, that have an half life almost as short as cellphones, physics processors....

Who wants to bet when the last game can be played on a PC without an Ageia Physics Processor will hit the market?

I could still cry about how fast the AGP slot was dumped.
I can't update my Graphics card unless I'm buying a new CPU and mainboard too.

Let's hope that simulators like X-plane, Microsoft FS, will enable enthusiasts to make fighting modifications or whatever you might want to use the sim for.

As an occasional simmer, can I put in a plea for a standard for keyboard assignments and controls. Most keyboard layouts seem be based on early program standards, and each game is different.
Heavy users no doubt find keys second nature, but newcomers or people like me do not. Every time return to BoB, I give up because of Rowan's idiosyncratic controls, and the way views are implemented.
This is not just a matter of key assignments, but what functions they provide. Toggle keys that work differently depending on other settings are hopeless.
Some functions ought to be essential and standardised on single key presses: e.g. internal cockpit straight ahead, internal and external padlock, external padlock on closest threat.
Perhaps a SimHQ project might develop a recomended set of standard keys, and even sets of 'keyboard' files that implement them.
Another view issue is the effect of framing from internal cockpit views - in reality pilots would move their heads slightly to look around them. This could be approximated by allowing the framing to be made translucent.
This is detailed stuff, but some work on this would make the hobby a lot more accessible to casual users, whose money would no doubt be welcome!

There's a lot of discussion about how sims are a limited market, developers need a different business model, etc. This is followed by remembering the good old days of the late 90's.

The late 90's was a booming time for software. The booming turned to busting in the early 2000's and flight sims evaporated. Now the market is strengthening again and we're seeing sims emerge.

I think all of this discussion about sims going away is malarky. Sims, I believe, are always the first casualty in a bear market. Software developers CAN reap profits with sims, but not QUICKLY, which is what a bear market demands. Our stock is falling, quick, generate profit! No, no! Forget that simulation!

What does everyone think? Are we all in a tizzy over sims going away, hoping they'll come back, wondering, wondering, and wondering some more? Shouldn't we just look at the larger economy?

On a related topic, I really think simulation developers need to start marketing on the Discovery channel, the Military channel, and perhaps Discover: Times channel. Discovery might be $$$, but the Military channel is only on satellite and doesn't have as wide a market. Still, it's wider than SimHQ!

This thread has been ongoing for almost two years now, and I'm really not interested in re-reading all of it again. But since it has re-emerged, I thought it was an appropriate place to post my recent observation on the present of our genre:

UbiSoft now has a three-pack out that it calls Ultimate Flight Collection. Included is the original "IL-2 Sturmovik" (ho hum -- this has been included in other bundles, sold as a budget title and even given away with CH Flightsticks. Did they print a million copies too many?), as well as "Pacific Fighters" and the original "Lock On." That's a nice introductory bundle, but hardly 'ultimate.' In my opinion, the original IL-2 simply needs to be retired instead of allowing UbiSoft to rehash it and thus further confuse newcomers to the series. Couldn't they have bundled "Heroes of the Pacific," "Lock On Gold" and maybe "Flanker 2.x" or something, and simultaneously issued all of the FB/AEP/PF games as a single pack (in North America)?

Atari has a three-pack it calls Flying Collection. What does it contain? "Flight Simulator 98," an outerspace game called "Independence War" or something, and "Mech Commander." WTF??? An archaic version of FS that just won't go away and two Sci-Fi titles. Meanwhile, Atari has had the first "Combat Flight Simulator" floating around as a budget release for a couple of years now. Jeez, at least put tired old CFS back in the same bundle as FS98 so people can fly the Mustang over Las Vegas.

And the other day I was shocked to see "Jane's Attack Squadron" as a jewel-case version on the budget rack. There's another title that just won't go away!

The market is already flooded with 'flying games' and I think it is increasingly difficult for newcomers to separate the wheat from the chaff. Old, obsolete sims are being reissued as 'top shelf' titles. Publishers like UbiSoft really need to promote their cutting-edge sims instead of treating their archaic titles as 'meat and potatoes' in the market.

Kermit Weeks has something there that isnt even as good as CFS2.... at least he did when I was there in 05.... The M.A.A.M. sponsors FS9 stuff... I have been trying to get something into the Smithsonian for a while now.... also at the College Park Air Musem in MD.

Sims are and always will be a niche market. Within that market there will be the realism hounds and the shootemup hounds.. who will most likely bore easily and move on. Most avid simmers from what I have seen tend to be older and more detail oriented than the casual gamer or even the avid pure gamer.... They want a good sim experience which demands a certain level of realism and playability and graphics. FB delivers for the most part. I think that the future of flight sims will rest with a model somewhere between the 1C/MS model... with more of the 1C model.... as far as developer suppport and quality control and with more limited modability and 3rd party possibilities. I think a good engine that keeps the FM and DM files encrypted but allows for creativity as far as map making could yield surprising results...

I agree with you too.. Skycat... some of these old dogs need to be retired... I think that with the cost of developing a good sim and the competition out there.. lets face it right now 1C is the horse to beat.. and I think after BoB comes out that will be even more so.. unless someone is sitting on something that we just dont know about. A lot of companies are hopping on the bandwagon while trying to not shell out for the developement costs... plus too.... there are still a lot... a LOT of people who just dont have rigs to run the better sims like LOMAC and FB to thier full potential yet... and when they do then more than likely something better will be out. Sims are the only genre if I am not mistaken that can cover such a wide range of hardware configs and still deliver to varying degrees on what you buy the product for. The more diehards... like most of us and people who frequent forums like this will be more than willing to shell out the bucks to run it the way they want it.... and since many of yus are an older crowd... with a bit more disposable income....