Is the Pfalz (and to a lesser extent the Albatros) too maneuverable in ROF?

If one studies historical accounts of the Fokker Dr.I from the RFC perspective, one will find lots of glowing accounts of its superior maneuverability to the allied inline fighters.

Quotes like this by Major Crowe (from 27 Mar 1918) are common,
“Triplane could turn quicker than 200 hp SE, which manoeuvre he used considerably, but SE invariably managed to keep above him. It was impossible to keep sights on Triplane for more than a few seconds”

Or this quote from James Mccudden (23 Sept, 1917)
“The German pilot saw us and turned in a most disconcertingly quick manner, not a climbing nor Immelmann turn, but a sort of flat half spin. By now the German triplane was in the middle of our formation, and its handling was wonderful to behold. The pilot seemed to be firing at all of us simultaneously, and although I got behind him a second time, I could hardly stay there for a second. His movements were so quick and uncertain that none of us could hold him in sight at all for any decisive time”

With the Dr.I having a decisive advantage in a dogfight over the allied inline fighters, inline pilots were warned NOT to dogfight them. Here’s an example of such a warning.

From one of Mick Mannock's London Colney training lectures as quoted by student Frederick Oughton:
“You'll be flying SE5's when you get your flights. The Huns have produced a good triplane fighter--a Fokker Triplane. It's easier to handle than the SE5, but not as fast. But it isn't strong and several of them have broken up in the air, diving. But you can dive an SE as fast as you like! When we get to war don't ever attempt to dogfight a triplane on anything like equal terms in altitude. He'll get on your tail and stay there until he shoots you down.”

British inline pilots understood the Dr.I had the advantage in a turn fight and strove to avoid it.

In ROF, the Pfalz can also easily flog the allied inlines in a turn fight. German aviation enthusiasts love to produce stats showing how the Pfalz wing designs produced 60% more lift than an allied wing and hence could easily whip them in a turn. So surely, just like the Dr.I we will find lots of historical documents stating how impressively maneuverable the Pfalz was and warning allied pilots to never dogfight with the Pfalz. Well surprisingly we find none. Here’s plenty of examples….

George A. Vaughn, 84 Sqn RAF, 17th Aero Sqn, USAS:
“The early aircraft I ran into were Pfalz and Albatros. The Pfalz as a rule was a more or less cumbersome airplane and we didn’t worry about the Pfalz. The Albatros was a little bit better, but of course the best fighter that the Germans had was the Fokker D.VII. That’s the one that gave us the most trouble.”

McDonald 56 Sqdn: A formation of 12 SE’s from No. 56 Sqn took off at 12:35 on 24 March 1918. After a series of running fights, MacDonald recalled: “I found myself alone and almost immediately spotted a Hun. He was a single-seater Pfalz scout. I had seen a model of this machine and had been told that Pfalz scouts were slow and not of much account. I got in a burst on him at close range and he went down completely out of control."

Summary of Air Intelligence No. 17.
On 26 Feb 1918, Vzfw Hegeler of Jasta 15 was captured in Pfalz D.III 4184/17. The "Summary of Air Intelligence No. 17" reported that Hegeler stated, "Pfalz scout is not popular with pilots owing to its lack of speed and its bad manoeuvrability; an improved type is expected."

Summary of Air Intelligence, General Staff of the AEF:
“April 1918 - Interrogation of pilot, Jasta 64: Pfalz D.III inferior to Albatros D.V, but one advantage, it climbs faster. It is equipped with 160 hp Mercedes, old model, but good with frequent defects in metal. 45 Hrs between overhauls,”…

Summary of Air Intelligence, General Staff of the AEF:
May 1918 - Albatros D.V much liked, although Pfalz D.III probably faster and has better climb, but not in favor because maneuvering qualities are not so good.
“Jagdstaffeln 64 and 65 have about 10 Albatros D.V and Pfalz D.III aircraft apiece. Pilots not satisfied with machines especially Pfalz which climbs slowly and loses speed at high altitudes. They regard speed superior to Albatros D.V.”

Air Chief Marshal Sir Donald Hardman flew Dolphins with 19 Squadron and wrote, "The Pfalz unlike the Albatros was not a popular machine with the Hun Pilot; it was prone to catch fire, had little glide, and was not so strong as its predecessor, and therefore, although it actually came on the front later than the Albatros, it disappeared before it. However it was rather more splitarse and had a slightly higher ceiling, 19 000ft or 20 000ft. It had one bay with "V"-shaped struts, extensions, a rather deep and narrow fish-shaped body with a square tail. It was more or less regarded as "cold meat" by the British pilot and known as the foolish Pfalz fish. The Hun was always rather afraid of them and consequently didn't make the best of them."

1/Lt. Donald S. Poler, an American who flew SE5a’s with No. 40 Squadron RAF, described a fight he had on June 27: “At a 1:30 patrol we engaged two Huns. One, our first Fokker D.VII, and a Pfalz with wings painted red and fuselage yellow. I had a wonderful dogfight with the last down to 7,000 feet, away over the lines. No one was hurt…I fought with that fellow from about 14,000 feet down to 6,000 feet. Evidently the S.E.5 and that Pfalz were pretty closely matched. I’d try a maneuver and he’d try a maneuver and I’d try another maneuver and I couldn’t get any tighter and he couldn’t get any tighter to me. I’d pull away and get in a few shots without results. When we got down to 6,000 feet (and this is always the case up on the British sectors) the wind had carried us several miles over German held territory. …When we got down that far I decided I had better call it quits, so I beat it. Well, he wouldn’t let me beat it….all the time he was following he was firing. I looked back at the fellow and could see his bullets following me all the way. They looked like fountains of smoke. …I finally got away.”

Mick Mannock and a well flown Pfalz on 21st May 1918. The story was told by Ltn. Van Ira:
"...the other Pfalz, a silver bird, and he had a fine set-to, while his patrol watched the master at work. It was a wonderful sight. First they waltzed around one another like a couple of turkey-cocks, Mick being tight on his adversary's tail. Then the Pfalz half rolled and fell a few hundred feet beneath him. Mick followed, firing as soon as he got into position. The Hun then looped - Mick looped too, coming out behind and above his opponent. The Pfalz then spun - Mick spun also, firing as he spun. This shooting appeared to me a waste of ammunition. The Hun eventually pulled out; Mick was fast on his tail - they were now down to 4,000 feet. The Pfalz now started twisting and turning which was a sure sign of 'wind-up'. After a sharp burst close up Mick administered the coup de grace, and the poor old fellow went down headlong and crashed."
"This was a remarkable exibition, a marvellous show. I felt sorry for the poor Pfalz pilot, for he put up a wonderful show of defensive fighting. Had he only kept spinning right down to the ground, I think he would have got away with it."

None of these quotes give the impression of an awesome dogfighting machine that allied inline fighters were afraid to, or were warned against turning with.
Note, the Great Mick Mannock who railed against dogfighting with the Dr.I was quite happy to dogfight with the Pfalz…. and won!
This is not the Pfalz we have in ROF….

Spoon

So based on these wonderful accounts, which consist of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and are delightfully free of hyperbole, would you also suggest changes to the Dr.I? As the one "firing at all of us simultaneously" is not the Dr. I we have in ROF...

Anecdotal evidence is really hard to use when making a sim plane.

Also, consider that maybe the pilots who WOULD have told about how the Pfalz turned inside of them might not have made it home...

The Pfalz is my favorite mount in RoF I have gotten more kills in it than any other type, I seem to recall in the Blue Max that it was much derided by the pilots so the anecdotal evidence must have been taken as historical fact there too.

"They regard speed superior to Albatros D.V.”
So the Pfalz was faster than the DVa

"Well, he wouldn’t let me beat it….all the time he was following he was firing. I looked back at the fellow and could see his bullets following me all the way."
I guess this means that the Pfalz is almost as fast as an SE5a.

"This was a remarkable exhibition, a marvelous show."
Against the likes of Mick Mannock no less. The Pfalz must have been one hell of a dogfighter.

"and was not so strong as its predecessor"
So the Pfalz was was not terribly rugged. In fact, less well put together than the DVa.

Funny, those impressions are the exact opposite of what I thought a Pfalz was.

Be careful with anecdotes.

One of those impressions must be pfalz...

I'll get my coat.

Pfalz wing had two spars, with torsion diaphrams at each rib within the box.
The British noted that 4184/17 responded better to it's controls than their examples of Albatros DV

The RoF Pfalz D.IIIa is a helicopter. I don't think anyone denies this. Hopefully it will be reviewed soon.

The D.Va is too good in the roll axis; compare it to the Albatros D.III.

Don't forget there were two versions of the Pfalz... The D.III and D.IIIa. Who can say which the Allied pilots were talking about?

You could never build a flight model based on anecdotes, but if you spend enough time and get together enough of them, they can get a historical overview of an aircraft and you can see how your flight model compares. In this case, if you spend the time to read all the anecdotes that I have spent a week collecting, you will notice a wide discrepancy between how pilots thought of the Pfalz at the time and how it flies in ROF.

I'm not asking for a review of the Pfalz's flight model based on anecdotes, just a review of its flight model.

Spoon