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#3427579 - 11/06/11 07:22 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Charlie901]  
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Originally Posted By: Charlie901
WOW!

No shadows and 2D "Sprite"-based particle effects really detracts from the wonderful vehicle models....

I understand that this sim is based on Military Contract sales but since it's "ADVERTISED" and sold on the CIVILIAN COMMERCIAL MARKET it should have shadows and 3D particle effects in this day and age.

I applaud the move to 3D non "Sprite"-based infantry as a move in a positive direction. thumbsup





Everyone wants to see all of this- including yours truly. I remember when there was some news back in 2002 or so when a T-72 was coming soon with the inevitable release of Steel Beasts 2. Well, it wasn't until 2006 when Steel Beasts Pro was available, and it's now late 2011 when a T-72 is only now coming around. This says something about the type of person who has interest in the subject matter who has stuck with it waiting patiently all these years; although we've all wanted all these improvements, we still held out, because it's really worth it still.

That said, Steel Beasts seems to have reached a turning point. Updates are coming faster than they had in the past, more content is piling in faster than most people with a life and a job can practically delve into and master. So nice things like shadows and particle effects will likely come sooner rather than later compared to what happened in the past.

I'm glad to see guod paying attention and helping out eSim with coverage here, too, that's really class.


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#3429645 - 11/09/11 03:32 AM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Ssnake]  
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Ssnake, that was an incredibly intelligent, mature response to my post and I appreciate it. I have a deep affection for tank sims from my first days playing M1TP, M1TP2, Panzer Commander, Panzer Elite, and a few utter crap games in between (I believe one was called iPanzer 44). And I agree. Why anyone would want to go back and play those is beyond me. A poster at the Armchair general clarified the issue for me. This is a tank 'simulation.' I would bet that driving a tank in a field (muddy, dry, whatever) is very different from what we see in SBPro. Tanks make ruts, spray dirt, and generally cause extreme amounts of damage to everything around them. I still do not get that sense with SBPro. If you like ultra hardcore simulations of 20 minutes of dial fiddling and don't care at all about the immersion factor, then you are in the Falcon 4 crowd and in the extreme minority.

M1TP2 was released in 1998 with sprites. 3 years later ( a lifetime in PC games) SB was released with the very same sprites. 10 years after that SBPro is still using the same sprites (yes, the new infantry look very good). Longbow 2 was released in 1997 and was cutting edge at the time, and was also about as hardcore a chopper sim as you could get (I played it to death, even though it was tough). 15 years later, DCS Black Shark is night and day graphically, but with even more hardcore fidelity and functionality. Why can't we have a tank sim reflective of 2011? The sound is phenomenal (good on you for giving that some love), the gameplay is obviously spot on. You're so close to the pinnacle of a classic tank sim. That's all I'm saying. If you give SBPro the 'eye-candy' (immersion) treatment it deserves, I'll pay $200 for it.


I mean, I guess it would just be a guy who you know, grabs bananas and runs. Or, um, a banana that grabs things. I don't know. Why would a banana grab another banana? Those are the kind of questions I just don't want to answer. -Michael Bluth
#3429770 - 11/09/11 08:27 AM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: aleader]  
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Originally Posted By: aleader
This is a tank 'simulation.' I would bet that driving a tank in a field (muddy, dry, whatever) is very different from what we see in SBPro.


Maybe with better graphics we could create a higher immersion for some players. That alone is worth it (and, as I wrote, we will continue to give SB Pro better looks, the transition to 3D characters is but a first step). Those that have been on a tank however - be it as professional soldiers like me, or as conscripts like many others - will to a large degree "appreciate" better looks, but it'll do little for extra immersion for them because no matter what, you simply can't substitute or synthesize certain things. I tend to be cautious with predictions, but I think I can say that for the foreseeable future, it can't be done at all. I wrote a chapter in the user manual about the limitations of simulating tanks in general.
Form a training perspective, immersion alone does not make good training. In the Gadget Show they recently combined a dome projection, a universal direction treadmill, and a battery of paintball sentry guns á la "Aliens" (extended version) to shoot the player while he was playing some shooter game. They agreed that this was the best computer game experience, ever - yet I have to question whether zinging a student with paintball guns really would improve training results. Maybe as an educational measure it could help, were it not that there are laws against physical punishment in most armies, so it's a no-no.

Originally Posted By: aleader
You're so close to the pinnacle of a classic tank sim.

I have thought a while whether I should give this retort because it can, again, be misunderstood as arrogance. But I think I can say without a bad conscience that there has never been a tank simulation on the (commercial/computer game) market that came even close to Steel Beasts in any area, except eye candy. Maybe one day there will be a better simulation available. But for more than a decade now we've been in a league of our own.

Most of the time you spend looking through a scope where the least that is on your mind is the lack of shadows, or other eye candy. You try to concentrate finding the #%&*$# that just took out your wingman, and nail him first before he'll get you. A significant part of the timer you'll be looking at the map screen, trying to read the tactical situation to get the timing right for your units' next moves. You notice all these deficits in the screenshots and YouTube videos because they can only transport eye candy, but very rarely the excitement of (simulated) combat. It's one thing to see the video of British squaddies being strafed by an A-10 (and surviving it), and quite another to really being there. Or the difference between certain adult movies and actually being together with your loved one. While we are all visual animals, there's only so much that a screen can transport.
Like I said, we'll do more in the field of better visuals. But I'm absolutely convinced that we already have a great package that is worth every dime. smile


Well, I shall post a few more screenshots today to bring this thread back on track. smile


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#3429995 - 11/09/11 04:14 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted By: Ssnake
I shall post a few more screenshots today to bring this thread back on track. smile


...in the AAR forum. smile


Visit the home of Steel Beasts!
...the ultimate armor sim...
#3430007 - 11/09/11 04:26 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted By: Ssnake
Originally Posted By: Ssnake
I shall post a few more screenshots today to bring this thread back on track. smile


...in the AAR forum. smile


Very nice smile Can troops use civil trucks as transport?


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#3430060 - 11/09/11 05:19 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: citizen guod]  
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Yes, they can.
It depends a lot on what you want to do. You can have "red" and "blue" civilian cars. They are exempt from the fire of military units, similar to ambulances (understand that this is an intermediary solution). If you do not make them blind and if you remove the radio damage, they can become intelligence assets that will report presence of the other side's troops. You could mix blind cars with those transporting troops. As soon as the troops get out of the cars they may be engaged by the other side's military units.

So, by shaping their properties you can achieve different effects.

#3435619 - 11/17/11 12:36 AM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: citizen guod]  
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More new screenshots from "Ssnake". He writes...

"The pictures show the Russian 2S1 "Gvozdika" howitzer, caliber 122mm. They will replace the "artillery placeholder" unit that we had in previous versions. It's mostly an artwork thing, they aren't yet fully functional. We will however equip them with a few HEAT rounds for self defense purposes so that they aren't completely helpless.

These new units should be a useful addition to create scenarios showing the events following a breakthrough in a linear battlefield where tanks are supposed to expand and exploit a gap in the defense line and wreak as much havoc as possible in the enemy's rear area. Ultimately, getting these units in one's sights is a tanker's classic indicator that an assault has been successful (that, and still being alive, of course).

The typical weapon range of this howitzer is 15km; per classic Soviet doctrine it would the the prime element of a regimental's artillery group and be found from about four to eight kilometers behind the mechanized and armor units' front line. The vehicle chassis is a derivative of the MT-LB, which is known for its excellent cross-country mobility especially across soft ground, or snow. The 2S1 is one of the most widely proliferated artillery systems worldwide."










Wisdom is knowing what's enough
#3435655 - 11/17/11 01:40 AM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: citizen guod]  
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1) This is such a small niche market that no amount of graphical improvements will have any significant impact on sales.
2) Those who would be willing to pay for graphical improvements probably own the game already.
So how is such a small company going to afford the effort it takes to make all of these changes UNLESS contracted by a large, wealthy commercial/government customer?

I have to agree with Ssnake: there is no substitute for Steel Beasts Pro if you want to SIMULATE modern armored warfare. If you want to play a shooter game whose focus is graphics and gameplay rather than realism, there are countless options.

If Steel Beasts Pro natively supported interfacing with the ArmaA 2 series in a way that retains its armor simulation model but allows ArmA 2 to provide the infantry modeling, that would be an awesome simulation AND game. What ArmA 2 lacks in realism, it compensates with immersion except for some physics modeling glitches that date back to the original Operation Flashpoint game. I assume that their new helo sim that evolved from the OFP/ArmA series game engine is probably the best helo sim option presently available. Hopefully, it will integrate with the ArmA series so that the high fidelity infantry combat can be mixed with decent helo sim modeling... If the market doesn't collapse, I see a very bright future in professional military grade sims that are being released in tandem as commercial products smile


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#3435935 - 11/17/11 03:05 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: citizen guod]  
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What needs to happen is an industry push to make an open battlefield. It would be an environment that developers could write to, which allowed something like Steel Beasts to survive. The market for sim products is just not big enough for every developer to tackle the entire thing. What we need is an open source platform that allows tank, flight sim, naval, fps, scenery, etc. developers to create content for. Sort of like FSX but for the sim crowd.

Then something like Steal Beasts would take off IMO.

#3436001 - 11/17/11 04:41 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: robmypro]  
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Originally Posted By: robmypro
What needs to happen is an industry push to make an open battlefield.

I'm not sure who should take the lead there, and with what kind of a business model. Only a pay to play/subscription model comes to mind, some sort of a MS Flight Simulator, just server based. But then the question is, if you make all extra content as something to buy separately, would the players actually be willing to do it, and wouldn't they end up paying a lot more than they do right now (subscription fees plus extra payments for vehicles and other content)?
I'm not sure if something like an open cooperative would work. You need to have one strong player to set up the entire market, and that player then needs to hope that other developers will join in to create modules instead of entire applications. I'm not sure if that is attractive enough. From an artist's point of view you lose a lot of creative freedom by submitting to some other company's rules, both commercially and with what they actually allow you to make (engine/content limitations).

Armies are willing to pay more money for certain standardizations, but there's still a long way to go before an open standard emerges that is also meaningful and mature enough for broad commercialization. Don't hold your breath for it.

Quote:
It would be an environment ... which allowed something like Steel Beasts to survive.


We're doing well, don't worry. Thanks for your concerns, but we managed to stay in the market over the last twelve years and are in better shape than ever, both in finances and manpower. The best is yet to come.
smile

Quote:
The market for sim products is just not big enough for every developer to tackle the entire thing.


May well be, but it's difficult to compromise between companies about engines and content to create one common product. I'm not saying that it is impossible - but rather unlikely. It worked with MS Flight Simulator for a while because there was one big corporation to establish the market, and at the same time that is exactly the reason why some developers would never want to join such a party. It is almost inevitable that there will be asymmetries in financial power and in the desired end-goals for all parties involved that make it questionable how long such an alliance might work out (see general Game Theory about that point).


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#3436608 - 11/18/11 02:00 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Charlie_SB]  
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Here's some more stuff...:




Some sign of hope for the Abrams players, and gunnery in the Challenger 2. smile
Watch it in HD on the Steel Beasts Channel at YouTube.


Visit the home of Steel Beasts!
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#3436644 - 11/18/11 03:13 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted By: Ssnake
Here's some more stuff...:


Some sign of hope for the Abrams players, and gunnery in the Challenger 2. smile
Watch it in HD on the Steel Beasts Channel at YouTube.


Very nice thumbsup Thanks for sharing.


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#3436794 - 11/18/11 07:23 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: citizen guod]  
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Very, very cool Ssnake.

You guys have gone to town on this upgrade. I saw 3D interiors for gunners position for Abrams and Bradley, beautiful gun sight for Challenger and of course a unbelievalbly beautiful 3D interior for that T-72. I've already okayed the purchase with the wife... WinkNGrin ...now when can I send my money to you? Smile2

#3436797 - 11/18/11 07:30 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: enigma6584]  
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Originally Posted By: enigma6584
Very, very cool Ssnake.

You guys have gone to town on this upgrade. I saw 3D interiors for gunners position for Abrams and Bradley, beautiful gun sight for Challenger and of course a unbelievalbly beautiful 3D interior for that T-72. I've already okayed the purchase with the wife... WinkNGrin ...now when can I send my money to you? Smile2


Is it December yet? Is it? Is it?

I'm very much looking forward to this release. Hopefully as soon as possible smile



#3437216 - 11/19/11 10:45 AM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Ssnake]  
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Very nice. smile


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#3437330 - 11/19/11 04:11 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: citizen guod]  
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this is gonna rock, I bet they MP side is gonna have a field day with the t-72's.



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#3437506 - 11/19/11 10:44 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Hartford688]  
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Originally Posted By: Hartford688
Originally Posted By: enigma6584
Very, very cool Ssnake.

You guys have gone to town on this upgrade. I saw 3D interiors for gunners position for Abrams and Bradley, beautiful gun sight for Challenger and of course a unbelievalbly beautiful 3D interior for that T-72. I've already okayed the purchase with the wife... WinkNGrin ...now when can I send my money to you? Smile2


Is it December yet? Is it? Is it?

I'm very much looking forward to this release. Hopefully as soon as possible smile


December can't come soon enough.


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In the end you will have nothing
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In the end you will return to the dust
#3437630 - 11/20/11 04:00 AM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: citizen guod]  
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Looking good.

I really need to get back into this sim.Stopped playing a month before before patch 2.538.Put it on the shelf and forgot about it.


People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do.
#3439229 - 11/22/11 09:28 AM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: citizen guod]  
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it doesn't matter how expansive or open to modding it is.

if the game doesn't appeal to the general audience, you're not going to draw much attention. and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

a sim doesn't need to take off. if it did, it probably means you've compromised yourself, or you have big advertising dollars. the latter only applies to microsoft.

#3549287 - 04/02/12 06:02 PM Re: More new screenshots for Steel Beasts Professional PE 2.6 [Re: Charlie901]  
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Originally Posted By: Charlie901
WOW!

No shadows and 2D "Sprite"-based particle effects really detracts from the wonderful vehicle models....

I understand that this sim is based on Military Contract sales but since it's "ADVERTISED" and sold on the CIVILIAN COMMERCIAL MARKET it should have shadows and 3D particle effects in this day and age.

I applaud the move to 3D non "Sprite"-based infantry as a move in a positive direction. thumbsup





You need to make a choice: Sound engineering fundamentals and a very high standard of simulation, or superficial polish. The latter can always be done with time. History has continually shown that you cannot have both, with very few exceptions.

The reality of the simulation market is that time and again products (across all genres) are released that look amazing but the fundamental mechanics have problems. The forums are full of posts that complain about these things, but all are in agreement that said titles always look pretty good.

I know which I prefer.

Hats off to Esim for always taking the professional approach.

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