I know most of you trim like crazy, but with the non-FFB joystick and the release-0.5-sec-after-pressing-trim issues, I find that this doesn't work for me at all.

I've found that if I trim for hover, the helo acts more "familiar," more predictable. My background is flying helos in EECH and Gunship! and so I'm not sure if this is just the new flight model or if co-axial rotors is something I'm just not used to. Anyway, I trim as close to a hover as I can, then I guide my helo through the route. I must admit this method is more arm-straining, but not being confused as to the actual position of the stick, I can make minute adjustments and my flight is more "under control" and feels more natural. Then as I approach my set-up point, I just slow down, let the helo settle, then engage hover hold.

Then hunting time!

I wonder who else uses a different trim method?

Try Flying with the Flight Director on. It feels more em... natural to me.

Also, use the controls indicator (RCTRL-Enter), it is vital in Black Shark.

Nate

I use the trim like I use force-trim in real life, I hold down the trimmer button until I get the helicopter where I want, then release it. Then I only have to apply pressure against the stick to make minor corrections.

Of course, my Saitek X52 (non-force feedback) returns to the center spring-loaded position, and any movements after that will be from the "new center". However, I find it's a lot easier to fly precise maneuvers when you hold the trimmer down the entire time, and release it only when you return to stable flight.

A lot of helo pilots that fly with force-trim aircraft have different techniques. Some will set the force-trim on their cyclic at straight and level flight, and then fight against the force-trim throughout the maneuvers. The logic is the cyclic will always return to a position consistent with stable flight. Other pilots will "bump" the force-trim, or tap it how you described.

I have a rubberband around the column of my X52 that I sometimes loop around the "adjustment screw" on the front side of the handguard, and then loop the other end around the plastic base of the spring. This eliminates the spring-resistence for most of the sticks travel (depending on the tension of the rubberband); the bad-side is you have to keep your "hand on the cyclic" otherwise it will just fall forward, sending you into a zero-G nose dive.

PS: I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the rockets or fixed gun until I started holding down the trimmer button during my attack. The problem with this is you need to map both weapon triggers to your joystick trigger itself, no "pickle" buttons since your thumb is occupied during the engagement. Just my technique anyway.

+1 try the Flight Director. Its the best thing to happen to heli's since coaxial rotor blades (JOKE NOT MEANING TO START A TRADITIONAL VS COAXIAL WAR)

I'm doing it the old way - press trimmer, make attitude adjustment, release trimmer, recenter joystick. Even for little adjustments. It sounds like a lot but after years of doing it, it comes naturally and quickly to me now. Actually it didn't take long to get into it, I think about 1 month after purchasing BS it became natural. Like alot of things it's practice, practice, practice.

Untick the 'CENTRAL POSITION TRIMMER MODE' box.

Start learning the proper way

Press-Immediate-Release

After a while it becomes second nature.

+1

That is how I trim the copter in BS2 as well. I always thought this was the proper way. It seems so natural this way.

Hmmm.... just did a flight with the Flight Director on and that was a blast. I'm not "trim-like-crazy" at the moment though, I trim for my desired forward-flight attitude, make minor adjustments (no trim), and just re-trim if the aircraft starts acting weird.

Highlight of the night was my rock-stable, no-deviation hover. Whoo!

So I guess I'm now in the middle-ground now, not trimming religiously, but appreciating it's usefulness.

Don't forget the trim button is doing 2 things at once. When you press trim the auto pilot is in a similar mode to the Flight Director mode, when you release the trim, 2 things happen...

1 - the new cyclic stick centre position is set.
2 - the Pitch, bank and heading on release is what the AP system tries to maintain.

It will fight you to Maintain No.2, this is why you must trim often, to reset the Pitch, bank and heading the Autopilot will attempt to hold.

With the Flight Director on, only No.1 applies, as the Pitch, bank and heading AP channels are now only in damping mode. The Auto Pilot will not attempt to maintain Pitch, bank and heading on trim release. This is why trimming is not as required as often with FD mode.

Nate

Thanks for starting this thread...this is something I've been struggling with since flying BS2 the last few days. Very helpful.

Just as a point of interest, here's a video of an Mi-171 full cockpit trainer. The constant 'click-click' is the trimmer being pressed-released.

Same here. Teaching myself to trim like written above. And that is going pretty well now. Using the FD when I want to relax a little more Landing the Kamov is going well now too. Finally!

Another note....the graphic part. Somehow I like the (photorealistic?) graphics of the BS cockpit better compared with the A-10C. The cockpit of the A-10C is too clean. Well detailed but very clean. But thats a personal note

A problem with any device simulating three-dimensional flight is the lack of movement on the body. Whether it's a desktop simulator or a full mock-up, everyone uses different amounts of their proprioceptive sensory system, aka "seat-of-your-pants". Because of these differences, different people respond differently to trying to control a simulated aircraft simply by looking at a 2D screen.

My point is that any combination of the above settings/techniques may or may not work for you. Central Position Trimmer Mode, Flight Director, how/how often you use the trimmer button, all these can be played and experimented with until you find what works for you. What works for me won't work for everyone else obviously, we're all wired different.

Yeah we are and seeing it's a game we have the luxury of choosing how we want to fly. If this were the real thing they'd be trying to beat the bad habits out of us. I'm the type of simmer that wants to try and stick to what RL pilots have to do themselves hence no FD for me if I can help it, 3 AP on and trim for each adjustment.

Oh I agree. Trained myself takeoff, navigate waypoints and land with lots of trimming. And I must say..works for me very well. Flights and landings are very smooth now. When I watch my trk files when landing I hear almost those many trim clicking sound as shown in EB's movie above.

Even RL pilots have different techniques and habits between themselves. If you have the tools available to you, use them...or not. Entirely up to you. It's a single-pilot aircraft, so once you leave the ground, what you say goes.

Hear, hear!

Actually, that's not 100% true. I found someone wired just like me, once.

No one will ever find them again, I made sure of it...



The Jedi Master

I am used to pressing trimmer for every movement of the stick and then releasing when I have the ship where i want her, but the trimmer stil lholds mysteries for me (inclduing the build up of errors, particularly in the rudder). I was playing a Dragon training mission last night which involved a rearm. After taking off again, I just couldn't seem to trim the aircraft and the trim/AP buttons kept going out.

More practice i guess...

True but IIRC in the early days of the initial BS release when there were huge threads about the AP, it was mentioned that rl pilots were severely reprimanded if they flew with the 3 AP channels off and didn't trim right. Can't remember what the protocol was for the FD but the 3 AP channels were a must. Which means that Kamov pilots were taught how to fly a certain way with the trimmer/AP. You can't fly with the 3 APs on without trimming constantly. It was their way or the highway. I'm the type of simmer who likes to recreate what the rl pilots would have to go through so 3 AP on, no FD and trim constantly.

But yeah, seeing as it's a single seater, who's to know?

Russian aviator protocols need not apply to home gamers.

Shoot to Kill. Play to Have Fun.

Well I would imagine that flying without the AP channels on would be like flying a Western chopper without the AFCS or equivalent flight computer engaged. The primary mission of such a flight computer is to make the helo stable. Most modern day high-performance aircraft (fixed or rotary) have natural instabilities in their flight model, that require a flight computer to manage and dampen. Assuming the DCS:BS manual is true to the real aircraft, it says that when the AP channels are engaged, it provides dampening as well as "hold" modes in the three axes. When the trimmer is released, the flight computer attempts to keep the aircraft in that last attitude (and altitude if the fourth channel is engaged). However, when the FD is engaged, the hold modes are blocked, but the dampening functions remain active.

As for the how to use the trimmer, that's up to whoever runs the institution of instruction. But as for the dampening function, it'd be awful hard to shoot something from a moving helicopter if it was jostling around. Especially with a fully-articulated rotor system like the Ka-50's. It's considered an emergency procedure in some modern helos if you have to fly without assistence from the flight computer.

I'm finally getting the hang of using the trim... now if I could just use the weapons system and navigation properly... I might be on to something. LOL!

Well I'm the type of real life pilot who does what 99% of other real life professional pilots do--that which works best for me. Use the automation when it helps, dispense with it once it ceases to help. If you find yourself trying to fly the machine through the automation, you are almost always better off disconnecting the automation. After all, it's there to help, not get in the way.

True but doesn't persistence and training pay off? Like in my early BS days I had exactly the same problems with the trimmer and AP understanding as people have described here. I used the FD but was told that rl KA-50 pilots don't so persisted with trying to understand the trimmer and it's paid off. Now I fly with the trimmer exclusively and never touch the AP/FD.
If it's there to help and easier to fly, why not implement into the main system and to make it the main way to fly with only trimmer needed to hold changes?

I'm still working on trimming properly... and I still find it a little confusing... but using the weapon systems properly is not sinking in and driving me nuts!
What's the best lesson on using the armament properly?

The way I've always done it is as follows:

* Press trimmer
* Move controls
* Release trimmer
* Release controls

Works like a laxative I'm telling you

Not in BS2 for me. Better this way
* Move controls
* Press trimmer
* Release trimmer
* Release controls

Or like Viper said:
Untick the 'CENTRAL POSITION TRIMMER MODE' box.
Start learning the proper way
Press-Immediate-Release

So many different opinions, and each person's opinion is "The Proper Way". Can't help but lol.

Nice vids, Kunter. As for the weapon systems, my recommendation is to tackle one system at a time: get familiar with it and be comfortable with employing it before moving on to the next weapon.

That is because there is only one 'proper' way:



Sure, it's a SIM and nobody is forcing anybody to do it one way or another......

However

If one elects to do it another way then do not expect to get the best performance out of the Whirly-Bird nor complain about trim-issues which exist solely as a result of not operating the bird as it is supposed to be operated

So, let me get this straight.....if someone chooses to select a trim method offered by the game with no easy to find explanation of what that method is, and what it is doing - it is the user's fault and they wont't get the best performance and shouldn't complain?

SimHQ is a great website, full of informative sim news, updates, downloads and general information....the worst thing about it are the ED forum administrators who post on here as 'users' with their constant put-downs. Fact.

That's where you failed: You did not get it straight at all. That's OK - I will not get baited again so I'll leave you to it

Ah, elitism.



The Jedi Master

On the contrary, common sense.

For what it's worth, I was referring to inter alia the propensity of Blade Intersection that is more prevalent in one method as opposed to the other, ie when not trimmed correctly, the ability to execute violent manoeuvres and subsequent recovery more easily attainable, or not, dependant on methods of trim and so on. However, rather than enquire or seek confirmation, I am callously branded a 'users with their constant put-downs'.

Hey, whatever floats the boat - Done with this

That's the elitism. By defining your "proper way" as "common sense" you take the burden of proof off yourself and place it on all those who disagree with you.

The very idea that there is any "common sense" way of flying a modern overly-complicated helicopter that requires multiple hours of flight instruction is laughable.



The Jedi Master

My 'proper way'?

Are you intentionally ignorant or just blissfully unaware?

I was referring to the Mi-171 cockpit trainer vid as posted above.

Is that vid inside BS or BS2? You make it sound as if one is expected to do research on how to fly it beyond what the sim offers itself, and that is what is wrong. As Paradaz pointed out, it is NOT made clear, if the sim is your sole resource, that is how it should be done and stating nice and haughty "well, those of us who actually CARE about simming have bothered to get at-home degrees from the University of Phoenix on Russian helo flight ops, because we CARE to do it the right way!!!!1111" is elitism.

What cinches it, and is really the prime marker of elitism, is that you can't see that it is.



The Jedi Master

After reading his last post I'd say the former.

You mean, yet another put-down of 'intentionally ignorant'?

I can't see how it is at all clear Viper is referring to the video when the comment that follows is this and clearly refers to the SIM'



There must be quite a few of us that are 'intentionally ignorant' then.....

Isn't this how religious schisms start?

Nate

lol, well I think Jeremy Clarkson has started something off in the media too!

RIP to all humour