The promotional machine just shifted into 2nd gear.

http://issuu.com/rfactornews/docs/isi_interview

Interesting parts....


rFactor 2 will go open-beta in 2011 ahead of the official release (possibly in 2011 as well)
There will be no demo before the release
There will be no DirectX 11 mode
rFactor 2 will come with improved netcode
More licensed content will be added after the release
The engine powering rFactor is now called isiMotor 2.5
rFactor 2 comes with an online account system providing matchmaking & updates. It’s free for the first 12 months after purchase and a paid service after that.

This caught my eye too.

The iRacing model may not sit comfortably with me but I don't have a problem with subscription gaming per se. However i'm not sure about my feelings towards this as it goes against everything that makes rFactor so great. It'll be interesting to see what form it takes. If you don't renew, Will we still be free to join private servers? or will not subscribing shut down the online component completely? One of the best thing about rFactor was that it was essentially free to play after purchase and this is what helped it become so popular. It's not fair to pass final comment until we get more details but if it's not handled properly it could be a kick in the teeth for ISI.

If the ability to connect Direct IP is available after the 12 months, then it will be an option that most people can probably live with. Like our races here, they could all be done through Direct IP easily and wouldn't have an effect on events such as these. If it shuts down all multiplayer possibilites, then it's going to be a very major drawback, especially for the casual online racer that hops from server to server, depending on what mods the flavor of the month.

I myself would like to see some clarification on this in detail before I make my purchase. If they're more concerned about capital, which I'm sure any company is, I'd rather see it in the form of making future carsets/tracks a paid for DLC or something along those lines.

I completely agree... This has left a sour taste in my mouth, but as long as the old rFactor servers aren't subscription only I'll be still racing it... I understand the need for money, and by charging by licensed mod will make those mods a little short on entrants to begin with sometimes, but it's better then small grids all the time... I think iRacings success has had a lot to do with this, and ISI is just hoping that the year of free racing online will be enough to entice people in to paying for the sub... For me long term I don't think I'd be able to commit to any series like the SCES on a subscription... Unless I had paid for a years sub I would probably only take part in month long series or on off races... So it would definitely effect my online gaming...

But before I go off the deep and whinge and moan about it, let's hope they clarify that by saying it'll be only for licensed mods or the public servers...

From the way it was worded, it looks like the matchmaker service is what's affected - so without paying, you wouldn't be able to just click a "play online" button and see a list of available servers.

If that's the case, I can see the mod community sidestepping this in about ten seconds via the use of a "Gamespy"-like program.

Well I dont think there will be to much to worry about with their matchmaker subscription as Lugs said, there's always gamespy and the like. Actually I was a bit underwhelmed by the whole Q&A session.Rather than "what is your favourite racing game?" or " how pretty do you think Jessica Lopez is? I would rather have known "How are you going to implement Build up of rubber (marbles) offline?" or "Will we see a working driver swapping functionality for online racing?". To be totally honest, my whelm has never been so far under. But thats just me I guess. I dont publish an online sim magazine so what do I know.

With questions like that it doesn't seem like they do, either.

Maybe it's just ranking or something. I doubt it costs them money to show the server list.

It's not about the cost.

If the modern gaming industry is any example, it's about control via some form of DRM and finding ways to monetize beyond the initial purchase.

Companies are increasingly controlling access to games - even single player ones - by requiring online authentication before you can play.

Some games are being sold now with a key that you have to register to play online...and once that key is used, nobody else can play online with that copy of the game unless they purchase a new online key (think: Gamestop & used game sales).

Games are being sold with locked content on the disc, that you unlock via DLC purchase. It's already there, you just have to pay extra to use what's on the disc you bought at the store (not a new tactic, but still annoying).

That's just the way things are going at the moment.

Or to put it another way...

Haha I love that especially in an article that starts off referring to iRacing as a "humdrum game for the well off".

I personally like rF and iRacing and don't mind paying for the value of continued development and quality of racing competition, but I wonder how this will sit with those that write off iRacing (unfairly IMHO) solely because of having to pay.

Some of us can't justify the cost. It's not about being angry that iRacing costs money. It's that I can't work it into an already stretched budget.

Yep, gaming used to be cheap entertainment. A solid simulation, flight naval or racing would keep you going for 100 hours and more for little initial price. These days it seems they have realized that they can't forever charge 50 bucks for a title that is getting a few months old, so instead of making their money on the initial price they want to make money on "services". With the convenient secondary effect that they can use these "services" to market to their customers or sell customer data to third parties.

No worries Lugnut, I understand especially now that times are tough, I unsubbed from iRacing for some time myself, it just seemed in that article like they started out bashing iRacing as something for the "well off" yet later don't seem to notice rF2 may have some similar costs to keep the quality/updates coming... sort of an unprofessional approach for that article IMHO, lots of people enjoy iRacing (and rF) not just because they are well off, but because they feel like they get lots of hours of quality simming and competition from the $8/month fee.

Wrongly or rightly I tend to equate my simming to similar real life hobbies (trackdays, amateur racing, RC racing, flight lessons), so other enthusiast activities I have seriously considered or done in the past that cost real money, so when it comes to paying costs for similar "virtual" quality activities like iRacing or FSX add-ons or Dirt3 DLC, I consider/evaluate them based on quality and value to me of the experience, and not necessarily how much I paid for GPL or GTL or rFactor or Falcon4 years ago and how much fun I got out of those $40 with mods people put thousands of hours into, but overall I still need to have the budget for it and if there's no budget, it's out of consideration (too bad as I really want a TM Warthog HOTAS and a Fanatec CSR ELITE)

Looking forward to rF2 though, I'll be one of those hopefully buying into the open-beta if it's similar DCS A-10C.

I imagine with the uproar that the "free for 12 months then....." comment has caused across many sim racing/gaming forums, Tim Wheatly will be posting some more information soon for clarification.

I too would buy rF2 if it's an open-beta like DCS A-10 was....ISI's been great with their support and development over the years as far as I'm concerned and I have no problem at all supporting them, using their past track record as a reference....unlike other racing game companies I will refrain from mentioning here....coughCodeMasterscough

I'll second Lugs statement... If I could justify the cost I'd be there... But there's no justification atm... When all online play goes that way we'll I'll have a reason to justify it.. But for now it's easily squashed.

I'll wait for clarification, but I'm putting this as another big checkmark in the "negatives" column. No DX11 but they want continued paying? For what? An already dated engine that won't get updated?



The Jedi Master

cool! bookmarked for reading!

I never heard of this Simracing magazine. I see rFactor website in the header so I assume it is a rFactor house organ?

this!

I must confess that until this year I was stuck on this mentality that games must be cheap or I will not buy or subscribe to them. After getting over this and joining iRacing I was completely sold on their business that allows me to have extremely clean pickup racing any day of the week!

I think iRacing could grab more customers if they had some kind of racing series package deals? All the cars and tracks needed for a specific series + a year subscription. oh well, I guess they probably already thought of this idea but found out it was not a viable business model?

good points.

Has anyone seen any info on the sub pricing? I scanned the article just now but could not find any info about sub pricing.

It's only $13 for an extra year. Pre-order (for beta access) and you'll get an extra 6 months for free.

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/1206-Pricing-and-related-Open-Beta-information

----


What is the pricing structure for rF2?
In the USA, rF2 will sell for $43.99. This will allow unlimited access to single player and mod development mode. It will also include one year access to an online account. Additional one year access to the online account can be purchased for $12.99.

Why not simply raise the initial purchase price?
That wouldn’t be fair to those wanting to use only the single player or mod development mode.

What exactly are online services?
Users will be given online accounts from which they can access multiplayer races. This should reduce the number of anonymous race entries and in turn hopefully reduce the number of passworded servers.

The service will identify when updates are available and allow for automatic downloads.

The service provides a way to generate and maintain unique Mod/Package ID’s. This should help reduce the mismatch problem found in the current version of rFactor and also help reduce/eradicate version confusion for the end user.

Additional features such as online statistics are also planned.

What will I be able to do if I don't use online services?
You will be able to run single player, run Mod Mode, and manually find and install any mods or updates.

What is this open beta I have been hearing about?
We plan to release an early content-limited version for mod makers to provide feedback on the system. It will be an open beta, meaning anyone can participate. People wishing to take part will be required to make a full purchase (see pricing info above). We are planning to give those who take part in the open beta 18 months of online access with that purchase rather than the 12 months which will come with purchase after the open beta.

Will you offer refunds during or after the open beta?
If you believe you became a part of the rFactor 2 community too early we can arrange one.

So if you don't pay for online access, you don't play online - period.

On the one hand, it's "only" ~13 dollars.

On the other hand, it feels like the other hand is slapping you across the face and saying "Pay up, #%&*$#!"




I don't doubt that the end result will be a positive. Still kinda sucks to have to cough up the cash for something that's always been free. I find it ironic, though, that racing sims as a genre are beginning to experiment with a "pay to play" model at a time when the big "pay to play" genre (MMO's) is finding it more lucrative to go "free to play".

13 bucks for a year ain't bad... But even so... Ir does kinda feel a bit well, it flattens my excitement for the game a little...

I've stayed away from games like WOW and Iracing for the reason that I can't just put it down for long periods of time when real life takes over and takes up my time without feeling a sense of loss...

I suppose I'll get used to it in time... because at $1.08 a month it's pretty cheap... I just hope it doesn't snowball this addiction of mine lol...

While it's somewhat a disappointment they went this route, it's still exceedingly reasonable and something I think I can swallow. It's a far cry from the iRacing pricing model but no doubt it will hurt overall online longevity and participation in the long term.

Quite honestly, i really don't know what to think about this. Removing 'perks' is one thing but totally killing the online component is damaging. It might make ISI a few quid but I fail to see how this will do nothing but make modders and drivers think twice before buying or renewing. it removes rFactor2 from that unique space in the market as the open free to play sim that made it so popular. As soon as they stop occupying this space then there are other options.

I don't begrudge ISI the extra profit. Heck i'd gladly pay 3 or 4 times the price as a one-off payment considering the entertainment we get. The problem is that the subscription model puts people in a different mindset. I'll be paying my $43, but I certainly won't be prepared to devote the time and effort into modding (and possibly driving) in the knowledge that both myself and/or my friends will be reconsidering every 12 months.

My worry is that this will turn rF2 into 'just another sim' that will be judged accordingly. Then i find myself thinking that if the current rFactor had a subscribtion model it wouldn't have even come close to it's current position and i'd probably have stuck with iRacing a little longer. I'd also have missed out on some of the most rewarding races and enjoyable modding projects ever.

Of course the proof of the pudding will be in the eating but rF2 has already faced a fair bit of criticism thoughout it's development so this revelation could be the final straw for some people.

This has certainly pissed on my fireworks so rF2 better be good!

Yeah, I don't like it. I'll most likely still wind up buying it.

But thinking about it now, it's like...I'll need to build a new PC, buy rF2, then in a year pay to keep playing it...


2012 is going to be an expensive year for this hobby of mine.

If it's a great game, and considering they're not the biggest of studios, how much is $13 per year really? A pizza?

I know this could be the beginning of something worse.. like paid DLC which is now fully accepted, but at the moment I think they have reached a reasonable middle ground to compete with their competitors.

Don't forget that the first 12 (or 18) months is free, that's a pretty reasonable amount of time to consider whether you want to re-subscribe to online play or not.

That's kind of what i'm worried about. Previously rFactor occupied it's own space in the market which meant it sat nicely alongside other sims and didn't need to compete. My single biggest issue is that we may see a decline in modding or the introduction of chargeable DLC by the back door. If this happens then rF loses one of it's best selling points and ends up being in direct competition with other titles. As Lug pointed out, subscription gaming is very hard to sustain. In the long term you just piss off customers and end up with a dwindling client base. If rF2 is strong enough to stand on it's own two feet then it may not be a problem, if it's isn't then they may not be able to count on the community support that sustained rF1 all these years. As you say at least we'll have 12 months to decide....

Yeah.

With rF1, it definitely had its own space. Generic sim tailored toward the modding community that had sprung to life around the previous EA+ISI games starting with Sports Car GT.

Now, we're going to have a game that is "kinda, sorta, but not really exactly an iRacing competitor". Given that online play will require extra money, this comparison is inevitable. iRacing is "the subscription based sim", after all.

Is it a fair comparison to make? Time will tell, but this is going to be the perception.

And as we all know, perception frequently equals reality.

Can rF2 succeed being perceived as "well it's like iRacing, but cheaper"?

I think what bothers me the most about this is the fact that ISI waited so long to announce this particular detail.

It's not like iRacing, where we knew long before release how it was going to work. Everyone was expecting rF2 to basically be rF1 with better graphics and physics. Now we're learning it's going to be something else entirely.

Of course, release could still be far away for all we know. It's not like the gaming industry isn't full of examples of titles that got stuck in development hell far longer than they should have.

"Only" $13 makes Xbox Live a screaming bargain. I think this just falls under the "cheaper than iRacing" reasoning.
Fine for people who don't play anything else or don't play online of course.

I assume Race Pro is the Xbox title they meant had used their engine, so I guess Lizard really was just a way to put it on console after all.

It's pretty cheap, but I am going to want something extra for my subscription on principle. It doesn't have to be much, it just has to be something they can do with a centralized login and database that they couldn't do otherwise (so I'm paying for something concrete). Stats is a good start, and tying people to a single user account across all servers is a good thing in my book. The mod version management is good too, so they're nearly there for sure.

It's a lot cheaper than iRacing, of course, but then iRacing also runs servers. I wonder how that will work? I really, really hope it's not one of these rent-a-server only deals that are popular these days.

So, I dunno. On the one hand, it's paying more money without much to show for it, but on the other hand, given the ridiculous value that rFactor gave in its heyday (paid $40 once, and had five years of simming), I don't mind giving ISI a little more money if I'm still playing rFactor2 a year from now. If they keep releasing new engine improvements and content over the coming years, then that is definitely worth paying $12 a year.

I'm just hoping that this extra licensed content that will be released after the rF2 is released is well worth the extra 13 bucks a year... For me that will sell it, if ISI make sure they release some licensed and new each year the 13 bucks will cover the extra game that mod takes the place of...

But I'm with DB in my fears... The cheaper version of Iracing tag could backfire big time... Or it could compete and possible drill IRacing into the ground... It all depends on how good the game is, and if IRacing players give it a go...

I'm sure this will come up at some point in discussion, so I'll be proactive and say it before it is mentioned. SimHQ will not charge drivers entry fees. Period. If any costs are incurred running SimHQ Motorsports servers, the site will absorb the expense. Frankly, this is a good way for SimHQ to get some new drivers or entice some drivers that are not is sim racing mode anymore.

I have a feeling that some enterprising individual or group will come up with some sort of external lobby, like the aforemention Hyperlobby, if it's at all possible. If they don't...well, like Ahmad said, I guess I'll eat one less pizza a year. Hell, I spend more than that on cigarettes in a 2-day period most of the time...my lungs will probably want to thank ISI....

I, for one, will buy rF2 as soon as the pre-order's available. Call me loyal I guess, but rF/their F1 series has given me loads of fun over the years and I have no problem supporting ISI.



Well, we all know simmers are finicky...you've got iRacing fans, you've got rFactor fans...there's even Codemaster fans out there. The iRacing crowd will scream to the high heavens that rF2 doesn't have laser scanned tracks and it's not an accurate simulation because of that. Other genre followers will chime in with their comments as well. People are going to find something wrong with any sim/game that they don't care for/want or that they feels a threat to their "beloved one".

There's a big enough market for everyone's taste I imagine. Hell, there's people still running GPL, and swearing it's the best, after what, 13 years post-release?

Over here, US$ 13 is equivalent to a regular size Domino's Pizza with some side orders thrown in.

To me this is nominal and a virtual non-issue.

While that is a good point, a very good point indeed, the problem ISI face is as DB said, they have left a vacant space in the market for someone to come in with a rF1 type platform with updated graphics and take potential drivers and modders away from rF2...

Like you I'll be getting my grubby mits on rF2 as soon as physically possible, because the offline gameplay will keep me more then entertained for the outlay... And really at less a $1 AU a month it's not a monetary concern, it's more of a viability and personal addiction control concern... While I can control the addiction side, the viability long term I fear there maybe some people who are incredibly jaded by this and won't even buy into rF2 at all just on principal...

At the end of the day though if the game lives up to the hype the sub will look better and better...

Maybe because I am a long time iRacing and rF fan, but I don't think just because rF will charge for online it necessarily puts it as a direct competitor and either-or choice to iRacing, personally what I like about rF has always been the variety of mods and racing situations, especially things not in iRacing like nordschleife, VLN, Enduracers etc, and for iRacing it is the ongoing updates, very controlled tracks, quality competition and series... especially the great pickup online races and practices free of asshat crashers without having to be in a league.

To me yes rF2 now has a nominal cost that is shocking to most that wrote off iRacing based on the recurring service model, but rF2's overall cost over 2 years is still less than one $59 console game and It will still have it's core modding and variety strengths to make it stand appart from most other competitors including iRacing, and who knows, maybe the yearly cost may even support more regular updates from ISI than rF got, similar to iRacing's quartely releases.

GPL may still be popular after all these years but how many people would still be playing if it required a subscription?

It's also worth noting that despite agressive costings and the aparant success of iRacings subscription model they have yet to break even, let alone make a profit.

Sure, for the first 12months rF2 will be a roaring succsess. After that it will have a dramatic impact on the number of drivers and modders prepared to make a long term commitment. If the modders abandon rF2 then they've lost the single biggest anchor for the longevity of the sim. Especially when iRacing will have matured even further and (god willing) we should have another couple of sims to choose from.

The ultimate test will be in the qualitiy of the product and the perceived benifit of our extra $13. If we get continued support/services/content then it's a justified expense. If all we are doing is paying for the ability to play online then it's not so great.

ISI must have know about this for some time and it would have benefitted them greatly to be transparant from the start. Pretty sneaky to slip it out like that.

Well having absorbed all that is in this thread I think it comes down to a question of presentation and perception. My take on it is that ISI is going to charge us $13 per year for their online service which will include much easier ways to update and ensure that our games are compatible and ready to run on the server of our choice without encontering file mismatches.
Well I for one would rather give ISI my $13 per year for constant updates and great online racing than shell out between £30 and £40 per year to Codemasters for a very limited game which only gets relatively minor upgrades between versions, has very time limited tech support and is limited to one style of racing. Its a no brainer in my book. I mean its only 25 cents per week!

I think the yearly cost would be well received if it meant ongoing laser scanning of tracks to accurately add to the game. iRacing is constantly adding a high level of content, from tracks to race series to improving physics. That's what makes it acceptable to members despite being an otherwise lacking game with no SP. If rF2 had a yearly fee and even if they charged a few bucks for laser scanned tracks on a regular basis, it would make it a lot easier to swallow.
Right now they have a reputation of being not much more than a modders development kit. The game on it's own is pretty worthless. They count on an unpaid workforce to add the value to the current game. Now they want to charge full price, plus an annual fee? We need to hear how THEY will stand behind and continue to develop the game, without depending on the unpaid workforce of the modding community to add the value to the game. What are they bringing to the table, since they didn't bring much on their own last time? That's my question.

Indeed, it's all about value. If I think I'm getting a good value for my money, I'll pay it.
I'd rather pay $10 for a great hamburger than 99 cents for a crappy one.

rF1 has a history of great patches adding stuff like cars and tracks (even though they were far outstripped by 3rd parties in terms of quantity, their stuff was always good quality) for free. I understand that model really may not be possible for them anymore, so I'll pay a small amount yearly to ensure continued updates WITH added content (not just bug fixes).
I also will go for it yearly only. I don't use any one program enough to justify a monthly fee unless it's super low like $3 or something, because there's very good chances I won't use it for a month or even 2. Buying it by the year, though, it doesn't matter as long as I feel I've used it enough in that 12 month period.
Since iracing has no SP/AI and double charges (monthly, which I already mentioned my objection to, and per car/track) it took itself right out for me because as good as the MP and car/track modeling might be, that's not a good value for how I'd be able to use it. If it was monthly but all the cars/tracks were included, or you had to buy each car and track as you went but there was no subscription cost (like RoF), I'd see a value for it. Obviously there are others who see a value in it because they only want to race online and maybe only care for certain cars/tracks and don't buy many, but that's not me. I like Race 07 and its expansions because I got a ton of cars, lots of tracks, SP and MP with AI, same deal as rF1 except out of the box it offered more stuff.
If rF2 wants to charge more than rF1, it has to offer more.




The Jedi Master

Tim Wheatley posted some responses to comments on an article @ RaceDepartment:


It's worth remembering the initial prices at iR compared to the initial features... ISI will do everything it can to make the online service worthy, and infact I personally think it's already very cool... The #1 thing that annoyed me personally about rF1 is fixed in the mod packaging system: It should revolutionize the delivery of mods and help users to know exactly what version(s) they need to be able to run in a server. It'll also be possible to install/uninstall/update mods and the sim from within the software and launcher.

If you decide not to pay in the 1 year, you still have a sim to play, just not online.


All MP, including LAN, is included in that. Although online gameplay isn't the only benefit of the online account.


We estimate the piracy with rF1 was quite widespread. rF2 won't use TryMedia, we've done everything ourselves. Accounts are also now tied to the login, not the machine, so re-installations aren't limited to 5, etc.

I don't mind paying for more content, I did at RFC until I stopped playing rF. I guess this is just a "stay tuned for more info" situation, I won't judge yet.

+1

That is the one thing that bothers me most....it's not like they came up with this idea last week, sitting around having a cup of coffee. It also makes me wonder what other "oh, by the way" moments we might have in the future. They have a good folllowing and a decent amount of goodwill built up with rF over the years, this type of announcement is going to cause them to lose some of that following and goodwill.

rF had no licensed content....rF2 is going to have licensed content, so there's been more of an initial outlay financially on ISI's part for rF2. I do worry that down the proverbial road, we'll see that subscription service tied to the release of some, if not all, of the licensed content....hopefullly, not the 60's racing we all seen in that Grand Prix'esque video.



That might be something that deters some right there....and increases the chance that rF2 is hacked/pirated. They did mention about the level of piracy with rF....eliminating LAN without the subscription is going to motivate some to hack it just to say "We can do it"...kinda like those guys did with EA's Origin service for BF3.

Just had another thought...sorry, just waking up good....

This subscription service is going to probably have an impact on modding.

Mods are made for online play for the most part...sure, some play them offline, but rF's AI wasn't the best in the world for offline racing and not very many mods had highly developed AI with them. I can see some modders deciding not to mess with rF2, because they might not be inclined to pay a subscription to play with their own work.

If nothing else, this might open an opportunity for something like C.A.R.S to step in and fill any void this causes of rF being one of the most favored free after initial purchase racing game/sim.

Yeah, no doubt.

As for the hacking/pirating bit - I'm guessing that "online subscription required for even LAN play" is an attempt to reduce piracy...similar to games that require online connections to play even single player stuff.

It won't work.

I mean, I read 2 or 3 days ago where there's already a cracked .exe for Battlefield 3 that lets you play online without EA's Origin service.

I appreciate the efforts of developers to protect their work, I really do...but it's a losing battle. In the end DRM only winds up hurting the consumer by making things less convenient for them. The pirates will always pirate, they'll always get what they want even if they have to wait a day or two in order for someone to crack it for them.

One word: iRacing. It is awesome.

Really, I can't see rF2 becoming iRacing Lite or anything along those lines....hopefully, anyway.

I'm sure some iRacing fans will clarify this, but don't they charge for each additional car/track that they release after your initial purchase? I remember seeing there will be a release of Outland Park soon, and it'll cost you, won't it?

One thing Tim Wheatley (who I've always had respect for, after trying to manage the madhouse that RSC became before he left) mentioned in his answers at RD ISI was tying the game copy to the subscription, instead of the game itself, to eliminate piracy. How is that going to affect people that don't have a subscription after the initial 12/18 months and builds a new gaming PC and has to re-install rF2 on it?

I'm sure...hopefully...that they've thought about scenarios like that before deciding to implement this subscription service. As we all know, in the absence of information...the void will be filled with rumors. A very detailed explanation from ISI about this would probably be a good idea, instead of a press release announcing it and then having Tim run around the Internet, trying to put out flames as they arise, in the comments section of sim sites.

I am a bit disappointed that the info about the subscription is leaked out now, but the pricing in itself is very fair. 13$ a year for a subscription is certainly not too much.

And if rF2 turns out as excellent as I hope it will be, then there might be no real issue as well.

At least I hope so.

And looking at BF3, it certainly could have been worse. If the developers had leaked out now that they are going to use something like Origin I would have had instantly turned my back on them and had scratched rF2 from my list of planned purchases in that very moment.

But fortunately that's not the case.

I really hope so too, but unfortunately that's exactly how it feels and it will influence peoples buying choice.


That is my biggest worry Steve. The focus is now switched away from the modders and back to ISI. To make this work the base content has to be of a high standard and ISI must keep releasing quality addons. If the product requires the same level of mod support as rF1 then i can't see how it will work as a long term prospect. Lets face it, if rF1 hadn't recieved such overwhelming support from the community it would be long dead. Jedi Master is a perfect example of someone who got real benefit from rF1 but is likely to be alienated by the new subscription model. After 12months there will be thousands more going through the same thought process. How many racers will we lose as a result of this?

I'm sure rF2 will be amazing and the sub price is reasonable but it turns rF2 into a different product. This may be a good thing and possibly what ISI intended all along but it would have been nice to have our expectations set from the get go. Somehow it's up to ISI to make this work and i dearly hope they have product and strategy to pull it off.

I can't remember when the last time was I actually ran one of the default rF cars...was probably when I installed it on this PC, to make sure it was working and it wasn't but for just a lap or two.

I know they've previewed quite a few default models, but as you said....they're going to have to keep releasing things to even come close to maintaining the standards of longevity that rF did. The modders kept it going all these years. How many different car models have we all ran at SimHQ this year in online racing? DTM's, ILMS, 80's and 90's F1, Skodas, 70's F2 to name some off the top of my head. What's this going to do to any future VHR mods?

I can see it putting a serious kink in modding, especially the teams that take forever and two weeks to churn out a product (Ahem...VLM...) that may not be used by very many people, especially if the AI still sucks!

That's my worry. If the AI sucks, I will not purchase their product because I don't/won't race on line enough to make it worth while.

It also raises the question of a modding group possibily putting out a high-class mod and then wanting to charge for it, like an indpendent DLC or something.

Haven't seen a EULA for rF2 yet, and won't until it's released I imagine...but I can envision this happening with a certain mod or two that's already been announced for rF2. I don't know if ISI could, or even would want, to prevent this.

Dave, I agree wholeheartedly on the AI....there's times I feel like racing and there's nothing scheduled here for me to join, so the AI are important. Of all the racing sims I've ran offline over the years, GTR2's the only one that I will consistently pick up and look forward to battling with the AI in...so, it is possible in the gMotor series to have good AI.

An interesting thought guys. I seem to recall reading somewhere (a long time ago) that ISI were thinking of providing a mechanism for approved mods to be 'sold' and distributed in the game thus generating revenue for the modders.

Maybe the subscription service is a means to facilitate that and they hope that a constant stream of 'approved' mods will keep things going?

As i've said before it's not about the cost but i do feel we've been somewhat mislead and that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Having dropped this bombshell via the back door, the least ISI could do is give a thorough explanation of the details. For everyone's sake they need to 'fess up ASAP.

Just to chime in, for some reason, I don't mind the annual fee. At least not for a relatively small rFee. For rF, or any title with a long-term following, it always seems the user gets a lot more than they pay for. As long as there's some patching or content to go with it, the fee won't bother me one bit.

The way this was made public? That could have been better IMO.

This payment model won't sit well with friends who are even more casual about gaming than I am. They don't mind paying once for Forza 4 or F1 2011 or subscriptions for WoW, but already with RoF I got an incredulous stare "You pay for single aircraft!?"

Not trying to tell the industry what works and what not, and certainly not assuming I know better than them how to maximize profit, but they will lose out on potential customers.

Going to buy it myself, but if I can't race with the friends I raced against since Stunt Track Racer on Amiga, not much point in paying the annual fee. Shame.

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/1224-Lifetime-membership

The story continues: ISI considering a one-time fee.

I'm with Darren in the "I don't really care about the fee, it's them waiting until now to announce it" boat.

While I know why they did it...to try to eliminate months of forums #%&*$# like we're seeing all over sim sites now....it's still going to cause a firestorm for many, and really a bigger one in size than if they would have mentioned it a while back. Now that there's a potential release date's within say 3-5 months.....not as much time for some people to calm back down and think that the overall costs aren't really that much.

They really could have handled how they told the community about it better I think instead of somewhat a "Oh, by the way" type thing, intentionally or not.

Petros from MMG (one of the biggest modding groups) raised a very interesting point on the forums which didn't occur to me. Boxes running a dedi server may also be subject to the subscription. If this turns out to be the case it means that not only are admins paying server costs and giving up their time and effort to host the race but are now subject to a 'surcharge' for the privilege. With many bigger groups running 8-10 servers it's not an insignificant overhead.

From a personal point of view I also maintain and run a server. This already costs me money. As things stand at the moment, not only will i need a subscription for my personal use but i'll also need another one for my server despite the fact that all my clients connect via direct IP using services i already pay for via my host. The clients will also be paying ISI for connecting to services i'm providing. I also give a LOT of personal time effort and sometimes money into contributing things back into the rFactor community. As a consumer/driver i'm more than happy to pay for services, as a provider, modder and promoter of the product it leaves me disillusioned with ISI.

MMG have already stated their intent to abandon rF2, and while i'll pay for my personal subscription i won't be maintaining my server either. Many more will follow i'm sure.

A lifetime subscription would be great but in order for rF2 to have a sustainable future, direct IP connections, dedi servers and established modders should be exempt from subscription altogether. The rF2 release was supposed to be a joyous event i've been excitedly looking forward to for months, now it kind of feels like i'm entering into some kind of sweet and sour business transaction.

Maybe we are partly responsible by pinning all our hopes on what we expected rF2 to deliver, but with the lack of concrete info from ISI it's hardly surprising that most of us just assumed this would operate in the same way as it's predecessor. Over the coming weeks i'll be trying hard to forget about all this and just look on rF2 as a brand new product without all the expectations and emotion that i've carried over from it's sibling. Whether it occupies that same special place on my hard drive only time will tell.

One thing's for sure, this is turning into one heck of a sh1tstorm and ISI's responses are also not helping, cryptic answers and sarcastic comments are not the way they should be handling this.

Why is this industry always looking to charge more for the same amount of content? Basically they are locking out a basic game feature (direct IP connect) and then charge extra to open it.

Now a subscription can be argued for titles where a large server infrastructure is provided. But to charge clients and community server hosts for being able to play on ressources that don't cost ISI money seems plain greedy.

My ISP also just added a 'yearly service fee' (for nothing extra) on top of the monthly payments. It all adds up. Why does the digital service industry think they can always keep charging more for the same experience when it doesnt cost them more to provide it?

Because we pay for it. If no one, or most people didn't pay for it, they wouldn't be able to do it (paid DLC would have died a long time ago).

Good points, Darren.

If a well respected modding group like MMG wants to abandon rF2 before it has even been released it's somewhat alarming. At least rF1 heavily depended on mods for longevity. Under these circumstances I sincerely hope that ISI rethinks their new business model and comes up with an alternative. If it comes down to me they can raise the price for rF2.

I got rF1 as a special offer via amazon in 2008 and the price was 20 Euros. Had I estimated how much fun this game was, I would have happily paid more for it, despite the fact it became a bit sour for me in recent months.

I think it's clear that the sim racing genre is changing a good bit while blossoming and interest is growing. All kinds of different models are being tested out.
iRacing
rFactor
Simraceway
Simbin's Race Room (2) and Real Time Racing
SMS's CARS
as well as the others that aren't changing at the moment.

All bring a different structure and different strengths. It's just going to be a matter of finding the price structure to suit you, as well as the type of racing and feel you want.

It would be nice if if it was known how GTR3 will work.

It would be nice if it was known what engine (physics and graphics) GTR3's based on...I've not been able to find any definitive information yet. Haven't seen an answer from anyone from Simbin themeselves, just rumors.

Yeah exactly, I liked GTR2, and found that GTREvo was not much different so I have tempered my expectations for GTR3.

It seems everyone keeps pinning very high (maybe unrealistic) hopes on all these titles and often being disappointed (or worse) about the realities.

Personally I am still interested in rF2 even if it is not the same huge value and swiss army knife as rF was, the inclusion of some decent cars and tracks this time might make it not as dependent on modding as rF1 which shipped with not many cars I was interested in and nothing but fantasy tracks which was a big turnoff for me, I didn't buy it until later when some interesting mods and tracks showed up.

GTR3 may be more like GTREvo a specific set of packaged series on the tweaked GTR2 engine than the true evolution in gfx and physics that GTR2 was compared to GTR, I think if GTR3 was going to have some huge evolution in physics or graphics we probably would have been hearing something about it.

Overall I think people need to compare the new sim titles to the current industry and current sim competition (Shift2, F1-2011, Dirt3, GT5, Forza4 etc.) and not to the sim industry 5 and even 10 years ago... even GPL which many of us regard as a classic genre changing title was a financial failure for Papyrus which I think had a lot of influence on why iRacing came to be how it is...

I wouldn't pin any hopes on GTR3. In my uneducated opinion, they will be leaning heavily on the physics engine they developed for SHiFT, which for sim purposes, is rubbish.

Simbin are not big on the publicity thing so i'm not surprised we haven't heard anything. GTR3 is a weird one, GTR1 and 2 were coded by Blimey Games who left Simbin after GTR2 and reformed as Simply Mad Studios. GTR3 is being coded by the Simbin team so it's likely to have more similarities to the RACE series than GTR2.

I'd be pretty surprised if it wasn't using a modified version of the Lizard engine which Simbin showcased in the RacePro title on the 360. It's a very complex engine and RacePro was one of the most realistic sims to hit the console. In many ways this was it's downfall and despite being technically brilliant it was swamped by Forza and bombed terribly almost bankrupting Simbin in the process. I suspect GTR3 will be a great title but probably more evolution than revolution. This is of course assuming they can financially sustain themselves through the development cycle.

As we all know SMS went on to work for EA and the Shift series where they were given little leeway to show their true heritage. After finally breaking the shackles they set up the wildly ambitious CARS project which is in many way the spiritual successor to the GTR games and gives the old team the chance to stretch their legs.

Quite where either sim will end up is anyone's guess but the next couple of years are looking very exciting.

here's some wild and totally unsubstantiated predictions from my PC race sim crystal ball

1. Once iRacing starts turning a profit it will become all powerful and become the defacto hardcore sim
2. rF2 will be massively popular for a couple of years then fade away
3. GTR3 will never see the light of day
4. Netkar will continue to have underground success with it's cult niche
5. CARS will be a critical hit with the community but not make any money for SMS
6. Simraceway will attract a loyal following but struggle to deliver the goods

I'll probably be wrong on every count but it's fun to speculate

Simbin has a lot going on with RTR and Race Room. GTR3 may end up being Race 07/GTR EVO on a new engine for all we know. Real Time Racing is a pretty incredible idea, might not get much from Simbin until that's done.

SMS...after very basic issues with Shift 2, not sure how I feel about them. Not talking gameplay either, I actually really enjoy the first Shift game after the mod community got hold of it.

Seen this tonight, a post by Gjon at the ISI forums...



Sounds like you'll still have to have the subscription matchmaker for LAN/direct IP.

They seem to be harping on the "mod mismatch/wrecker" issue for some reason as justification...that's something that leagues and organized races like the ones we have here doesn't have problems with or test beforehand to take care of any incompatibilty problems, so it's a moot point for those instances. I can understand their concern over cracked versions, but I didn't think those work with the current matchmaker setup that rF1 uses, so I can't see the rF2 one being a "help" in that area.

It could be more helpful in helping to police pick-up races that the general public gets in to, but if they think it's going to totally eliminate wreckers on open public servers....they need to think again.

Honestly, that whole "On the other hand, maybe I’ll just do whatever I want for no apparent reason… it works for me" attitude that I've seen lately from ISI is really turning me off to purchasing rF2. If they want to be comedians, then they're in the wrong line of work. Seems to me that being upfront and professional with your target audience would be the thing to do, given the response this sudden disclosure of a subscription matchmaking service has brought about.

Couldn't agree more Steve. Another response i was stunned by was when someone asked how it would work at a LAN party when everyone needs an internet connection to sign in.

ISI's response was along the lines of "most people now have some form of smartphone, you can use that"

I understand some of these responses are in jest (at least i hope so!) but it puts across a #%&*$# you attitude that astounds me given the circumstances. ISI could have knocked this on the head with a detailed, open and honest description of why this was implemented. I may not have agreed but at least i could respect their decision. I need to stop reading all this stuff as it's quickly putting me off and i really don't want that to happen.

Yeah I'm kinda astounded that these guys are serious about trying to sell a product when they are talking to basically their partners (server host) and suppliers (mod creators) as well as us the consumer base that they've built up in such a manner...

The type of attitude shown and lack of a proper clarification isn't a good business model to work from pre launch... The only thing they could of done worse was to not say a thing about subscriptions and release the game and let people find out when their 12 months is up...

Yes, the attitude being displayed is quite shocking... did they forget why rF1 was so popular? When I first got it I quickly became bored with the original set of cars, I only started to play it seriously when I found F1 mods, and then SimHQ. rF2 will be a failure if the majority of the community and mod makers don't get behind it.

LMAO! At least we would have had 12 months of blissful ignorance!



Exactly the same for me, in fact i considered it a waste of money for the first 12-18months until some of the really good mods came out. With hindsight that was a fairly naive view at the time as I didn't appreciate it was essentially a 'platform' and not a complete title. Now i'm expecting a 'platform' i'll probably get something else lol

GTR2 AI is good. The best I've seen is in GP4. Despite it's other PITA flaws the AI was smart and savage.

Really? How extraordinary! Let's piss off the customer base before it's out the door. I will tell you right here and now. If the product is what it seems to be at this time, limited usefulness unless you pay more, subscription based, etc. I will never buy this and I have bought RF1 3 or 4 times for myself and others. They can kiss my butt.

Was doing some more reading at ISI's forum....and you get a lot of people saying things like "Well, you ban someone from a free server for wrecking and he'll make another account and log back on. If you ban them for wrecking with a subscription, they won't pay that subscription price again once they're banned"....things like that.

Well, do they actually think that ISI's going to ban someone that's paid a subscription? Do they actually think that the subscription EULA's going to have a "wreckers" section in it? Who's going to be the banning authority that reviews each and every case and will a subscription refund be given?

It's almost like ISI's just sitting there, watching the flames grow higher....I guess they're figuring any publicity is good publicity or something.

lol, stoppit Steve, I've only just calmed down from the last time i was over there!

I know, Darren....I need to quit going over there myself for a while, it's not helping my headache at all. Guess I'm an optimist.

Think I'm going to go turn some laps at Dijon for a while....

I have... I'm just waiting for full confirmation of the details of the whole system... Until then all this petty crap that's going on over there is just not worth the time... I've got Skyrim to deal with later this week... I simply won't have the time to lol...

What! Pumbaa likes that elves 'n dragon stuff? naaaa, say it ain't so!

I like the Orcs and axes stuff thankyou very much lol

To me the Elder Scrolls games have always been what GTA should be, but set in ye old days... Picture me as a ugly Pirate with tusks

I always did!

I think you meant Assassin's Creed Revelations and Anno 2070 are coming out in the next 2 weeks

Grand Theft Auto? If so, what do you use to knock the ye old days hookers over the head so you don't have to pay them?

A Sledgehammer



lol



I was completely unaware of both of those titles... but now that I am, I can see December as a month that I won't be leaving the house... It's summer so I'm perfectly happy sitting inside with the air con on full

You have not played Assassin's Creed? Pick up Assassin's Creed 2 and Assassin's Creed Brotherhood before playing Revalations, it's part of a trilogy.

I'm surprised Skyrim isn't being blocked in your area of the world PZ - after all, it's so violent.

I've been playing the closed beta of Tribes: Ascend for the last few days. These guys...they have something here. A lot of old-school Tribes players are crying because it's not exactly like the original (just with updated graphics) but you'll always have those types of people hanging around.

I am very much enjoying some Tribes right now.

Chad and Ahmad too? Fans of elves and dragons games?



Shocked, I am. Shocked!

Actually I'm quite looking forward to Batman Arkham City.....

AIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.................

I spent five years playing Asheron's Call:



...although it didn't have any elves or dragons.

To this day it's still one of the best games I put any time into, and if Turbine ever makes it F2P like they did with D&D Online and Lord of the Rings Online, I can guarantee you I'd be playing it again.

What...no.. I dislike RPG games.. Assassin's Creed is about running, jumping, and killing! And Anno is a city builder..

The only Assassin's Creed game I've played was on my phone, so looks like I've got some catching up to do...

Isn't Arkham city already out? or is it getting a later PC release?

DON'T YOU DARE SAY THAT CHAD!!!! I've already had 2 games ruined for me this year thanks to this draconian country... I don't need a third...

But I'm now interested in Asheron's Call... hmmmm...

It's out on console, just ironing my grey tights and blue pants ready for the PC release.

Well, here's another Elves and Dragons fan. After I liked TES:Morrowind and TES:Oblivion so much (not to mention GTA III and GTA ViceCity ) I really looked forward to Skyrim.

But... it uses Stream, and I'm not happy about that. Still on the fence if I should give it a try or not. I'll wait for the user reports first.

I'm getting Skyrim for sure. Oblivion was awesome, never played Morrowind though.

An Asheron's Call screenshot was prolly the last thing I expected in the Motorsports forum, but hey, thanks for the memories. That game was absolutely incredible before the bots moved in and took over.

Stream or Steam?

I've been using Steam for a year now... It's worth it just for the free titles and BETA sign ups.... As for games that use Steam, it's a little annoying... Now that I know that Skyrim is Steam, I'm not going to be playing it until late arvo on the day I get it...

Duke Nukem Foreever is the only game I've bought the physical copy of that uses Steam, and while it provides a stable online platform for the game, the install process is *(_%$YHFBDJKL:SG AIRNKASDH XZBCFKBXZILGDJCSNKDF VZFx annoying... I hope it's different with Skyrim as the file sizes are surely to be bigger, because with Duke, after inserting the CD you have to wait 3-4 hours with a download speed of around 1mb/s... So if it's the same with Skyrim I'm expecting to get it at 9am and spend the next 5 hours waiting for it to download, and then install...

The only upside to this method is you can log into your Steam account from another computer and within 4 hours be playing with you game and with your save files.. So having to reformat isn't as dramatic as it once was... Which for Skyrim is a real BIG bonus...

I have Steam and it's games on a different partition. No need to ever re-install or re-download it.

That was just a typo, Pumbaa. I meant Steam of course

Ok we'll I'm heading out now to collect my copy of Skyrim a day earlier, if I'm not seen until saturday's practice races you now know why...

Ok I've got it, but I have to wait until it's released on steam for it to install... argh!!... hopefully that'll be midnight at the latest... But getting a day early paid off, I was too late to preorder the special edition, I walked away with one today