Hi all,

I am currently beginning to slowly put together an Apache sim for CryEngine2 based on the WAH-64. Not attempting to make this a study sim, but I am attempting to achieve a level of detail/realism at least on a par to EECH or Janes Longbow 2 in terms of avionics and flight modeling and certainly a lot more detailed than Apache Air Assault.

After playing the previous two sim titles extensivley I have a question regarding the operation of the FCR, I know many of the SimHQ members here have an extensive knowledge of such systems. I know the basic operation for ground radar mode includes both changeable sweep angles and slice sizes and range & the real life system can store up to 256 targets. My question is does the system automatically store all targets or will it only store targets that are selected to be stored by the pilot /cp-gunner. In EECH for example any target scanned in the sweep angle/range infront of the apache is stored autoamatically and even if the hit is lost due to it going out of range or out of LOS it remains "discovered".

Currently my version of the FCR will only "see" targets in the 90 degree angle (will work on adding variable scan angle/sizes/directions soon) infront of the Apache but I need to know how to deal with the storing of targets. Should I follow the EECH example and just automatically track all of them once the radar has seen them, or should I rather let the pilot/cp-g pick and store only the targets he wishes to retain in the fire control computer. From my understanding the real system is more likley to operate in this fashion, but aside from the information avaliable on the internet I cannot find any solid documentation on how these 256 targets are chosen and stored for targeting. I know the system can automatically prioritize them but I would have thought that the pilot/cp-g would have had the final say in what gets stored and what gets dropped from the list.


Anyway big thank you to anybody that can provide this information. For anybody who is interested at all I have a very early video up so far testing some basic avionics, currently TSD and FCR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv3TwP8BUaU&hd=1

Wow, looking quite good! Didn't know that something like this is possible with the Cryengines.

I do not know anything about the real FCR implementation, but for a half-sim type game i would suggest handling it like EECH does it, just to decrease the workload for the virtual pilot.

One additional thing i noticed....the pitch ladder lines on the IHADDS should always stay parallel to the horizon, shouldn't they ? It looks strange the way i saw it in your video.

Anyway keep on that good work

Chris

Hello and Welcome to this Forum Fortran.


first,

nice and ambitious project, good luck
second, I am also new at this great forum and i am NOT THE EXPERT concerning the Apache Longbow - these would be Flyboy, Recluse and lot of other nice guys here :-) and I think they will answere your Question better than I do but i try to help with my marginal knowledge:



after reading my Jane's Longbow Manual ;-)and some other sources, i would say YES at all - the FCR stores automatically - the CPG can de/selct and priorize targets, setting PFZ's and so on..this system has the function to support and exonerate the crew - you can also upload targets from other units and vice versa.

I hope i could help you a little bit..

warthog77

..this could be also important for you http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/LongbowFireControlRadarMissile/index.html

Hi Fortran, wow, nice project you got going on there. You look as though you've got quite well into it before announcing it. Pretty impressive!

I don't know the correct answer to your question off the top of my head, but what I do know is that I have never heard that question asked before, not even by others who have tried their hand at making a hardcore Longbow sim! As you say you don't intend to make this a study sim, I would just add the functionality of the FCR similar to that in EECH and LB2.

In fact, I've never really thought about how the FCR stores those 256 targets. I always just assumed it meant that 256 could be detected and displayed within one scan pass and displayed on the 90 degree scan angle on the MFD. I don't think there would ever be a realistic case of having 256 valid targets on a battlefield, let alone in one scan window. I, myself, wouldn't get too complicated in this area!



Well said, you have a good basic understanding of the FCR!

Hi Chris, you are absolutley correct I stupidly got the input the wrong way around so the ladder moves in the opposite direction to the way it should, this has since been corrected. As for flight sims in CE2 there are problems, one namely that floating point precision in the engine becomes problematic after about 5km from the origin of the map. Also obviously terrain is limited to 8km in CE2. However geometry based terrain is unlimited (within reason and while dealing with the first problem). I have a couple of test maps at 40x40km and even 100x100km which work fine and infact the performance is better than engine based terrain by a long stretch. Many thanks for replying.






Hi wathog and Flyboy (will address you guys together as you share the same opinion on the operation), huge thanks for replying also, I think it is the difference between JLB2 and EECH where my slight confusion is arising from. In JLB2 the FCR returns raw un-interpreted hits, everything on the FCR screen just shows as boxes and the actual icon for each to identify its type is shown on the TSD. Also in JLB2 the FCR sweeps the player set angle and any targets which move out of that sweep angle (or range) are no longer picked up on the FCR or TSD whether due to them moving or the apache moving or rotating. Now in EECH when a target is picked up on the FCR it is both assigned an icon ON the FCR and TSD and also its icon remains on the FCR screen even if I rotate or move, although obviously I can't lock the target unless it is in the sweep range.In my own opinion I feel that possibly JLB2 is more realistic but I just wanted to ask you guys to be sure.

Here is a couple of screenshots to illustrate my question. The first is JLB2. You can see I have a screen full of targets:



Now if I rotate the apache away from those targets they are removed from the FCR like so:



Now comparing this to EECH, again the first image I have targets in my sweep range:



But if I rotate the apache again and they move out of my sweep range they are no longer lost/removed but rather stay on the FCR.




EECH seem to be more akin to the "storing of 256 targets" but JLB2 is usually known to be more accurate in its research of the avionics etc. So I am at bit of an impass as to which I should attempt to emulate.

Anyway thank you again guys, your help is much appreciate. Thanks warthog for the link! Am always trying to increase my collection of research material on the net so this is great. Also can I say a HUGE thank you to you Flyboy for all your work getting the JLB2 install process smplified for Windows 7. I had all but given up on re-installing my copy since I moved over to W7, wasn't until I came across your info that I was able to install it again!

I see what you mean about the difference in the FCR between EECH and LB2. I don't honestly know which is correct, but I like the look of how it's done in EECH. Can I also note that in LB2 you seem to have simplified avionics turned on, as I can't make out why you are only getting square building symbols showing up on your FCR page but are getting both building and vehicle-specifc symbols on the TSD and FCR pages. It would appear that you have some sort of prioritization of targets selected, but as LB2 doesn't model target priority outside of PFZs, having simplified avionics turned on is the only thing I can think of.

To get a nice clear picture of the FCR page in LB2, better than that small, squashed one on the MFD page... have FCR selected and go to the co-pilot cockpit, then enter 'heads-down' mode (can't remember the button), you should then be able to view the FCR page fullscreen (see below).

I'm pleased you found my LB2 on Win7 instructions useful!

EDIT: After looking at some reference material, it looks like the LB2 method of FCR operation may be the most realistic, as in real-life, all sides of the MFD screen have text telling of MFD button functions. If the FCR symbols carried over outside the radar scan range, it would get very cluttered and impractical. By keeping the target symbols inside the radar scan range, the areas around the edges of the screens are kept clear. I also wouldn't worry about including the radar 'clutter' like what's displayed in EECH.

Thank you once again Flyboy! Very much appreciated, I think your probably correct, the MFD would become exceptionally cluttered should the target hits appear outside of the sweep range indicator and under all the labels. As for the icons yes I think simplified avionics is on at the moment, I only just re-installed as per your instructions a couple of days ago and haven't had a chance to play with LB2 much yet. Thanks for the tip on the FCR I actually have never tried that!

Anyway many thanks again, really appreciate the input. I will continue basing the FCR system on LB2 for now then.

I'll see if I can ask a couple of our instructors here at Mother Rucker, but from my understanding, Flyboy is correct. You see what is in the "sweep" and once you turn away from the sweep, the radar isn't picking it up anymore to show you. That's not to say its not still passively tracking those targets, think of it as the FCR still knows their position but isn't showing it, so when you turn back over that area and it sweeps again those images get updated. Does that make any sense?

That's what I like to hear!



Well it does to me, perfectly.

Wow this is most certainly impressive, never thought CE was anywhere near capable of things like this..goes to show what you can do when you think outside the box. I will most definately be keeping an eye on this and spreading it around, best of luck!