Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 2499
Loc: Gulf Coast of Florida
"A broken trim tab is obviously a problem, and it’s a known weakness in P-51s." -this is very telling
_________________________
Windows 7 32 SP1 Gigabyte GA770 probably obsolete already AMD Phenom II X4 3.1Ghz really an X3 unlocked and overclocked ATI HD 5830 1Gb 256 bit it was cheap 4 x 1Gb GSkill 1333Mhz looks pretty on the MB X-Fi Xtreme Creative Soundcard - cheap pair of headphones
"She put carbolic in my coffee, turpentine in my tea, Strychnine in my biscuits, Lord but she didn't hurt me." Furry Lewis / Big Chief Blues
Several of you are questioning the 22 G's, and I thought it worthwhile to consider catastrophic failure. In normal flight, it is not meant to do that kind of G's, clearly. Pilots couldnt survive. And neither would the airframes. But when an engineer talks of a failing airframe, say due to G forces or other stresses, doesnt nessisarily mean the wing will crumple and fold, but rather that it would no longer be airworthy, and could not pass inspection without a total rebuild.
There is also the difference between momentary spikes vs sustained stresses/G's...if it were a sustained 22g's, yea, an actual deformation could be obvious. But a momentary 22 could easily incapacitate the pilot without actually ripping wings off, yet still render the airframe not airworthy...before the trajic impact, of course.
Car crash telemetry has shown much higher G's than that, in rare cases. One Formula1 car crash recorded momentary spikes of up to 80 G's without the driver dying. But I'm certain he was knocked out cold, and probably still needed hospitilisation.
Thing is, I would not hessitate to go see such a race, you are in more danger at a car race than this. More fatalities for spectators, that's for certain. Sad this happened, but no one lives forever. This pilot died doing what he loved, and as sad as it was for the other victims, I assume they are aviation fans too.
_________________________
POLITICS, WAR, ECONOMY, CONTROVERSY! and other heated discussions and debates in the PWEC sub-forum at the bottom of this forum main page. See you there!
We can see the full flight path in this video too. The flight path appears to be one large consistent barrel roll from this perspective. There doesn't appear to be any control input modifying the flight path. That suggests to me that any last input would have occurred at the moment of pitch up which put it along this path. There is also the possibility that there was no input whatsoever, and the missing trim tab from one side could have induced the corkscrew like path. I'm no expert, of course.
EDIT: a tiny piece of debris passes through the frame at 0:24. The force of that impact must have been tremendous to send debris out to that distance.
This video was taken by some Germans at the race.
Edited by Vertigo1 (09/24/1101:26 PM)
_________________________
"The more laws, the less justice." ~ Marcus Tullius Cicero
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” — Voltaire
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke
Registered: 01/10/01
Posts: 6880
Loc: College Station, Texas, USA
This hit a little closer to home for me... One of the spectators that died was from Friendswood, TX. He regularly volunteered at the Wings Over Houston airshow which I also regularly volunteer at.
_________________________
"Go Fly A Kite!" -Jason R. FS-WWI Project Leader FS-WWI Plane Pack Site
The Unlimited Class is done. The cost of insurance will be too high to possibly recoup any kind of profit from it. These planes were never designed for these extreme types of modifications. The P-51 already had a history of trim tab problems couple that with flying on the edge instability problems without modifications. I work in a old folks home and one of the residents is a WWII P-51 pilot, he wasn't surprised by any of this.
Terry
_________________________
First day at a nudist colony is always the hardest.
Several of you are questioning the 22 G's, and I thought it worthwhile to consider catastrophic failure. In normal flight, it is not meant to do that kind of G's, clearly. Pilots couldnt survive. And neither would the airframes. But when an engineer talks of a failing airframe, say due to G forces or other stresses, doesnt nessisarily mean the wing will crumple and fold, but rather that it would no longer be airworthy, and could not pass inspection without a total rebuild.
There is also the difference between momentary spikes vs sustained stresses/G's...if it were a sustained 22g's, yea, an actual deformation could be obvious. But a momentary 22 could easily incapacitate the pilot without actually ripping wings off, yet still render the airframe not airworthy...before the trajic impact, of course.
Car crash telemetry has shown much higher G's than that, in rare cases. One Formula1 car crash recorded momentary spikes of up to 80 G's without the driver dying. But I'm certain he was knocked out cold, and probably still needed hospitilisation.
Thing is, I would not hessitate to go see such a race, you are in more danger at a car race than this. More fatalities for spectators, that's for certain. Sad this happened, but no one lives forever. This pilot died doing what he loved, and as sad as it was for the other victims, I assume they are aviation fans too.
What controls the trim tab position? Is it a hydro-mechanical system or is it a mechanical system on that P-51?
_________________________
l'Audace, toujours l'audace
I don’t have pet peeves; I have major, psychotic hatreds. - George Carlin
Even if you have a crown and sit at a throne In the end you will have nothing Even if you are destined for great riches In the end you will return to the dust
Some footage that was submitted to the NTSB shows the aircraft wiggle and pitch up violently. In the footage, you can see the tail gear extend, and when the aircraft is over the top the trim tab breaks. The trim tab doesn't appear to break before the pitch up. Jump to 7:30
Previous Topic
Index