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#3380389 - 09/01/11 11:47 PM It's HOTAS Upgrade Time
Renic Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Ok, so I've been using Saitek's X52 HOTAS and ProFlight Rudder Pedals, and it's about time to upgrade.

At the moment, it's between Saitek's X65-F and Logitech 's G940. Unfortunately, Thrustmaster's Warthog is just way out of my price range right now, and will continue to be for quite some time.

Also, I'm not a fan of CH Products.

So I have two questions:

One, am I forgetting any HOTAS setups to consider?

Two, given the two options above, which would YOU choose?
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"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

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#3380525 - 09/02/11 06:59 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Derk Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 179
Loc: Hengelo, the Netherlands
Well, that would depend on what you want to get out of it. X65 is a force sensing (means the stick doesn't move but senses you pushing pulling it in a certain direction and translates that to x/y output.) While the G940 is a regular stick that has Force Feedback and a set of rudder pedals. Also, G940 can have some hardware issues (spiking in throttle, i think rudder too.) but if you don't mind a bit of soldering (and to void warranty) that can be remedied. (look at the controller forums)

Anyway, read this and decide for yourself:
Clicky
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#3380599 - 09/02/11 09:08 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
CyBerkut Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1259
Loc: North of St. Petersburg
Originally Posted By: Renic
Ok, so I've been using Saitek's X52 HOTAS and ProFlight Rudder Pedals, and it's about time to upgrade.

At the moment, it's between Saitek's X65-F and Logitech 's G940. Unfortunately, Thrustmaster's Warthog is just way out of my price range right now, and will continue to be for quite some time.

Also, I'm not a fan of CH Products.

So I have two questions:

One, am I forgetting any HOTAS setups to consider?

Two, given the two options above, which would YOU choose?


Well, you might want to include the Saitek X-52 Pro version in your considerations, unless you are looking to make a bigger change partly for variety's sake. It would still be an upgrade, but it would not get you a split throttle controller. However, it would be pretty easy to convert your existing profiles over.

As for what to choose... There are so many variables to consider that you should factor into the selection. What things matter most to you?

Appearance? Reliability? The stick giving you vibration / bump cues? The stick being able to physically hold a Force trim position (DCS:BlackShark)? The stick not needing deflection space (Falcon side stick mounting)? Rudders included (seen as part of a single controller for older games/sims)? Split throttles?
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"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” - George Washington

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#3380708 - 09/02/11 11:44 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: CyBerkut]
Renic Offline
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Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Reliability is a must. Appearances don't matter to me as much as the performance. I would like a good looking setup, but if it handles like crap, then its worthless to me. The X52's stick is way too wobbly and loose, even with the minor mod that helps this out somewhat. Force Feedback seems like it might be a nice addition, but is in no way necessary for me. Included rudders would be nice for some of the games I play, but again, not necessary. And I really would like a split throttle.

Thanks for the link, Derk, reading through it now!
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

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#3380740 - 09/02/11 12:26 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
531 Ghost Offline
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Originally Posted By: Renic
Reliability is a must.


If reliability really is a must, you've eliminated the most reliable from your list. wink
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#3380790 - 09/02/11 01:16 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Derk Offline
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Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 179
Loc: Hengelo, the Netherlands
You're welcome Renic. I am considering an upgrade myself (also from x52). Twin throttles is a must. The G940 really appeals to me considering i fly helicopters almost exclusively. I like the idea of FFB and not having a spring cetered mechanism. I am worried about the quality though and having pots instead of sensors. I just can't afford to buy one and end up not using it due to hardware issues. You see, i'm not that confident with soldering myself. wink
If i can find one cheap i might go for it. Else it's just saving up and get a Warthog somewhere down the line. IMO that's the only real upgrade alternative since i'm not a big fan of the x65.
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#3380815 - 09/02/11 01:36 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: 531 Ghost]
Renic Offline
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Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Yeah, I know. I forgot to say that excessive price trumps reliability. XD I drool over the Warthog every single day. But I can't afford $450 for a stick. That's like 2/3rds of my bi-monthly paycheck. Maybe if I could get one on an installment plan, lol!

I spent a few hours going over reviews and comparisons of the X52 and X52 Pro, and decided that I'm not going to spend $150 to get what could be called an incremental upgrade, at best. I do like the ergonomics of the X52's setup, but I want something completely different.

Also, I'd definitely consider a Thrustmaster Cougar, but I can't seem to find one in stock anywhere!

After reading plenty of reviews, I'm not sold on the X65's force sensing technology.

It looks like I'm going to pick up the G940 after all.
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog

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#3380858 - 09/02/11 02:40 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
CyBerkut Offline
Former Quantum Mechanic
Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1259
Loc: North of St. Petersburg
Originally Posted By: Renic
Yeah, I know. I forgot to say that excessive price trumps reliability. XD I drool over the Warthog every single day. But I can't afford $450 for a stick. That's like 2/3rds of my bi-monthly paycheck. Maybe if I could get one on an installment plan, lol!


531Ghost's reference to reliability was about CH Products' offerings being off of your list. wink


Edited by CyBerkut (09/02/11 02:40 PM)
_________________________
"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” - George Washington

“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.” - Thomas Jefferson

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#3380889 - 09/02/11 03:26 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: CyBerkut]
531 Ghost Offline
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Registered: 09/17/02
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Originally Posted By: CyBerkut
Originally Posted By: Renic
Yeah, I know. I forgot to say that excessive price trumps reliability. XD I drool over the Warthog every single day. But I can't afford $450 for a stick. That's like 2/3rds of my bi-monthly paycheck. Maybe if I could get one on an installment plan, lol!


531Ghost's reference to reliability was about CH Products' offerings being off of your list. wink


wink
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


For your CH Products programming needs, come on over to: The CH-Hangar
Current System Specs

Forum Use Agreement: Read It

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#3381422 - 09/03/11 11:21 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: CyBerkut]
Renic Offline
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Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: CyBerkut
531Ghost's reference to reliability was about CH Products' offerings being off of your list. wink


Heh, yeah, I realized that after the fact, considering his signature. smile

Just never been a fan of their stuff, dunno why. Never had any real experience with them, so maybe if I tried I would like them.

But I bit the bullet last night and ordered a G940. $260 with free shipping from Amazon. Gonna torture test it when it arrives, and if it's not up to snuff, it's getting sent back. Hopefully my cockpit will be in at least flyable condition when it gets here, lol!
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog

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#3381578 - 09/03/11 04:09 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Derk Offline
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Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 179
Loc: Hengelo, the Netherlands
Same here, CH just doesn't appeal to me much. But then again I never saw one in real life either.
Please keep us posted about your thoughts on the 940. I'm interested in what you think of it.
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I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

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#3381719 - 09/03/11 07:24 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
AggressorBLUE Offline
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Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 2540
Loc: Jerz
Originally Posted By: Renic
Originally Posted By: CyBerkut
531Ghost's reference to reliability was about CH Products' offerings being off of your list. wink


Heh, yeah, I realized that after the fact, considering his signature. smile

Just never been a fan of their stuff, dunno why. Never had any real experience with them, so maybe if I tried I would like them.

But I bit the bullet last night and ordered a G940. $260 with free shipping from Amazon. Gonna torture test it when it arrives, and if it's not up to snuff, it's getting sent back. Hopefully my cockpit will be in at least flyable condition when it gets here, lol!


You made a mistake. Trust me. The 940 will break your heart. It looks awesome, doesn't it? Dual throttles, rotary trims RIGHT where you want them, those neat 3-way led buttons, force feedback, hall sensors, metal pedal inlays....

Yea, I was sold too.

Then came the problems: The pots started spiking in the rotary trims on the throttles, then the throttles stopped registering in snyc (ie, if I locked them physically together, one would still lag behind the other digitally). Then the pedals started sticking (not as bad, I can still use them, but I give them less than a seasons use before they die). Plus, the FF stinks, it's like someone poured rocks into the gear mesh. The software and after-market support suck too. I Have yet to see a real way to use those three way buttons on the throttle.

I'd also say flying heli's with it is ill-advised. The need for constant forward stick pressure puts stress on the FF motors. Not a big deal though, as the pots will fail long before the motors do.

I've used the G940, Saitek X52, and CH HOTAS gear.

the CH stuff isn't perfect, but it works, it's precise, it's programmable, and it works.

Did I mention the CH stuff works?

My advice: Learn to like the CH gear. It's the best available right now.



Edited by aggressorblue (09/03/11 07:28 PM)
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#3381803 - 09/03/11 09:39 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
LukeFF Offline
Amasser of Mosins
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Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 10060
Loc: Riverside, California
Looks aren't everything when it comes to flight sim controllers. On that note, yes, CH gear is very reliable, and you can program just about anything you can imagine to it.

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#3382253 - 09/04/11 04:23 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Renic Offline
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Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Derk: Will do.

Aggressorblue: Thanks for the input. I'll definitely keep a look out for those issue. But the problem with flying helis isn't a problem for me since I don't, lol. A question though: How long and how much use did you get before the G940 failed on you?
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog

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#3382282 - 09/04/11 05:03 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
HitchHikingFlatlander Offline
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Registered: 09/21/06
Posts: 3819
Loc: California
It's too bad Thrustmaster isn't an option because its in the same category of quality CH gear is in, only its more expensive and doesn't look like a 1980's controller. My only issue with CH has ever been looks (a large number agree), I'll bet the person in charge of looks drives a mint Trans-Am wears a denim jacket (sleeves may or may not be present) and rocks out to Motley Crue on the way to the office (no offense M.C.)!

If they could just re-design the look of their equipment they would not only have the best in terms of quality but looks too.


Edited by HitchHikingFlatlander (09/04/11 05:04 PM)
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#3382353 - 09/04/11 07:01 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
AggressorBLUE Offline
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Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 2540
Loc: Jerz
Originally Posted By: Renic
Derk: Will do.

Aggressorblue: Thanks for the input. I'll definitely keep a look out for those issue. But the problem with flying helis isn't a problem for me since I don't, lol. A question though: How long and how much use did you get before the G940 failed on you?


NP, I'd say I got about 4 months of modest use before major issues popped up.
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Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Logitech G940 frown Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR biggrin
Simpit: ETA Q2 2014
Wheel: ETA Q4 2014

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#3382360 - 09/04/11 07:27 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: HitchHikingFlatlander]
AggressorBLUE Offline
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Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 2540
Loc: Jerz
Originally Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander
It's too bad Thrustmaster isn't an option because its in the same category of quality CH gear is in, only its more expensive and doesn't look like a 1980's controller. My only issue with CH has ever been looks (a large number agree), I'll bet the person in charge of looks drives a mint Trans-Am wears a denim jacket (sleeves may or may not be present) and rocks out to Motley Crue on the way to the office (no offense M.C.)!

If they could just re-design the look of their equipment they would not only have the best in terms of quality but looks too.


Uh, what? Sorry, but unless your talking about old school TM (Saturn ring anyone?), then no, TM isn't in the same league. Some observations:

-There's been more reported failures of Warthog equipment than it's CH analog within the SimHQ forums.

-In Joe Keefe's SimHQ review of the Warthog, he goes out of his way to disassemble the review unit, acknowledging a major concern from the community that it would follow in the footsteps of the failure-prone Cougar. See for yourself.

-The Warthog "fleet" is less than a year old, so it's too early to tell if it will hold up.

-In the TM MFD review, one of the units had already had a back-lighting failure.

Now, the cast metal build of the Cougar and Warthog might feel solid, but if they can't withstand the test of time, sooner or later your left with just an awesome looking/feeling static display.


Edited by aggressorblue (09/04/11 07:28 PM)
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Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Logitech G940 frown Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR biggrin
Simpit: ETA Q2 2014
Wheel: ETA Q4 2014

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#3382776 - 09/05/11 11:49 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: HitchHikingFlatlander]
531 Ghost Offline
USMC
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Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 10795
Loc: Elizabeth City NC
Originally Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander
It's too bad Thrustmaster isn't an option because its in the same category of quality CH gear is in, only its more expensive and doesn't look like a 1980's controller. My only issue with CH has ever been looks (a large number agree), I'll bet the person in charge of looks drives a mint Trans-Am wears a denim jacket (sleeves may or may not be present) and rocks out to Motley Crue on the way to the office (no offense M.C.)!

If they could just re-design the look of their equipment they would not only have the best in terms of quality but looks too.



THAT my friend, is funny!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


For your CH Products programming needs, come on over to: The CH-Hangar
Current System Specs

Forum Use Agreement: Read It

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#3383044 - 09/05/11 04:48 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Brandano Offline
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 275
Loc: Caput Mundi (well, it used to ...
As a proud owner of an HOTAS Cougar, I must agree with aggressorblue. Even then the quality of the assembly left a lot to be desired, and a lot of cougars fell to ungreased gymbal wear, misaligned switches and poor pots. Not to mention the throttle pot failing if the unit was programmed with the throttle at one extreme, something I think got fixed in the later revisions. My cougar had a few switches rotated to be closer to the F16 ones, the axle re-greased immediately after it was bought and lately the pots have been replaced with homemade hall sensors. It's fantastic, but it it didn't come out of the box like this.


Edited by Brandano (09/05/11 04:49 PM)

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#3383427 - 09/06/11 01:39 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
NamelessPFG Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 730
I haven't had any serious problems with my Cougar, though it does have its quirks. (Throttle pot started having slightly irregular response, and the microstick pots are really screwed up.) But I think a lot of that boils down to the fact that mine was modded when I got it (FCC in the stick), and it's only been more extensively modded since then (specifically the throttle, which now has a Hall sensor and UTM bushings to eliminate the stiction).

The only way I would part with this thing is if money becomes really tight, though it's getting to that point where I may have to find a buyer for the FCC-1 and live on stock gimbals and pots for the time being.

What would ultimately be ideal, though, is if CH gear had the feel of TM gear, but kept everything else intact...

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#3383826 - 09/06/11 02:01 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: NamelessPFG]
AggressorBLUE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 2540
Loc: Jerz
Originally Posted By: NamelessPFG
I haven't had any serious problems with my Cougar, though it does have its quirks. (Throttle pot started having slightly irregular response, and the microstick pots are really screwed up.) But I think a lot of that boils down to the fact that mine was modded when I got it (FCC in the stick), and it's only been more extensively modded since then (specifically the throttle, which now has a Hall sensor and UTM bushings to eliminate the stiction).

The only way I would part with this thing is if money becomes really tight, though it's getting to that point where I may have to find a buyer for the FCC-1 and live on stock gimbals and pots for the time being.

What would ultimately be ideal, though, is if CH gear had the feel of TM gear, but kept everything else intact...


Agreed. The CH line could use some new blood, that's for sure.
_________________________
My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ With Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo / EVGA GTX 660 SuperClocked / 8 Gigs DDR3 1600 G.skills Ram / A couple SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Logitech G940 frown Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR biggrin
Simpit: ETA Q2 2014
Wheel: ETA Q4 2014

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#3383896 - 09/06/11 02:53 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Derk Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 179
Loc: Hengelo, the Netherlands
So if i understand correctly, a lot, if not most CH owners have their gear modded or enhanced in some way, right?
Wouldn't it be fair to say that all hardware, including the G940 can be equally enjoyable when given the same TLC? (using Leo Bodnar's stuff to get rid of the -not so- Logitech comes to mind)

I don't mean to say that the two are equal one way or the other, but it seems to me that enjoyment comes at extra cost for CH stuff as well.
Just trying to see the big picture here so i can make a good decision on my next (and last for the upcoming decade or so) HOTAS.
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Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

crap...

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#3383992 - 09/06/11 04:22 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Derk]
531 Ghost Offline
USMC
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 10795
Loc: Elizabeth City NC
Originally Posted By: Derk
So if i understand correctly, a lot, if not most CH owners have their gear modded or enhanced in some way, right?Wouldn't it be fair to say that all hardware, including the G940 can be equally enjoyable when given the same TLC? (using Leo Bodnar's stuff to get rid of the -not so- Logitech comes to mind)

I don't mean to say that the two are equal one way or the other, but it seems to me that enjoyment comes at extra cost for CH stuff as well.
Just trying to see the big picture here so i can make a good decision on my next (and last for the upcoming decade or so) HOTAS.


Some (45) ProThrottles are modded with the Franken-Potato mod. I wouldn't call that a lot. So to that, I'd have to say, wrong.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


For your CH Products programming needs, come on over to: The CH-Hangar
Current System Specs

Forum Use Agreement: Read It

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#3384399 - 09/07/11 01:45 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: 531 Ghost]
LukeFF Offline
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Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 10060
Loc: Riverside, California
Originally Posted By: 531 Ghost
Some (45) ProThrottles are modded with the Franken-Potato mod. I wouldn't call that a lot. So to that, I'd have to say, wrong.


+1

The thing about CH gear is that it simply works straight out of the box. Modding CH gear is more about enhancing the product than about correcting design / manufacturing flaws.

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#3384653 - 09/07/11 11:30 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: 531 Ghost]
AggressorBLUE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 2540
Loc: Jerz
Originally Posted By: 531 Ghost
Originally Posted By: Derk
So if i understand correctly, a lot, if not most CH owners have their gear modded or enhanced in some way, right?Wouldn't it be fair to say that all hardware, including the G940 can be equally enjoyable when given the same TLC? (using Leo Bodnar's stuff to get rid of the -not so- Logitech comes to mind)

I don't mean to say that the two are equal one way or the other, but it seems to me that enjoyment comes at extra cost for CH stuff as well.
Just trying to see the big picture here so i can make a good decision on my next (and last for the upcoming decade or so) HOTAS.


Some (45) ProThrottles are modded with the Franken-Potato mod. I wouldn't call that a lot. So to that, I'd have to say, wrong.


There's what Ghost said for one.

For two, most modding CH gear is borne out of wanting a mod.

For a lot of the cougar owners, it seems many of it's mods are needed, especially in the throttle and switch gear.
_________________________
My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ With Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo / EVGA GTX 660 SuperClocked / 8 Gigs DDR3 1600 G.skills Ram / A couple SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Logitech G940 frown Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR biggrin
Simpit: ETA Q2 2014
Wheel: ETA Q4 2014

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#3385701 - 09/08/11 03:43 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Derk Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 179
Loc: Hengelo, the Netherlands
I'm sorry guys, got my CHs and Cougars mixed up! screwy

I just get kind of lost. At this point i might as well end up with a pair of Saitek throttle quadrants, a collective of some sort and an easily extendable joystick! (No, not THAT easily!)
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Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

crap...

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#3387024 - 09/10/11 06:09 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Renic Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
So my G940 came today while I was sleeping, but siince I work graveyard, I haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet. But I did unbox it and check it out before I left for work.

My initial impression was that it was larger and more attractive than I thought it would be. The stick seems a little large for me, even though I have big ol' manhands. The throttle seems comfortable, but even with the resistance turned all the way up, its not stiff enough. I like a high resistance in my throttles. Also, the trim wheels on the throttle spin too easily, and there's no center detent to them. Due to this, they'll probably remain unused. All the buttons and hats seem to have a good resistance to them, and a good "click" feeling when they're pressed.

Also, the pedals are larger than I thought, which is good. They looked a bit too small in all the pictures.

Its too early to tell, so I'm reserving final judgement until I get a few hours of stick time with them. Unfortunately, I'm leaning way toward returning them already. If that turns out to be the case, I hope that Amazon can give me store credit instead of refunding my account. By the time I've tested and returned them, I'll have gotten paid again, and I'll be able to accecpt paying $200 for a Warthog setup.
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#3387159 - 09/10/11 12:39 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Chappy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/25/10
Posts: 57
I had an x65. Wow to find out what the insides looked like after it broke and ran out of warranty. I now have a thrustmaster cougar HOTAS. The difference is night and day. The x65 didn't hold center nor would it calibrate TO center when Saitek came out with the patches to their software. In the end I tried to see if it was under warranty and since it wasn't I was going to mount the stick on a 52 pro. I will never use a Saitek stick ever again. The pedals have held out great for about 4 years so far. In 6 years I have used an x45, 2 x52 pro's an x52 and have now gone through an x65. No more Saitek.
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#3387234 - 09/10/11 03:17 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
531 Ghost Offline
USMC
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 10795
Loc: Elizabeth City NC
In over ten years I have only used ONE HOTAS, CH wink
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#3387492 - 09/11/11 12:47 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Renic Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Well, that was quick. The G940 is packed back in its shipping box, waiting to be taken to the UPS store on Monday.

The thing performed reasonably well. I didn't find the stick to be as gravely as many people have said. There is a definite "gear" feeling when maneuvering, but its a soft feeling, almost squishy. The throttle resistance, while still too light, was okay in flight. But the pedals were rather uncomfortable for me.

The stick was very precise though. More so than my X52. But when your hand is off the stick, the FFB resistance lessens a lot. There's a small optical sensor on the right side of the stick, and when you first go to grab the stick, it's a little limp for half a second, and when your palm covers the sensor the FFB activates and the stick jumps to attention. It felt kinda cool. But in space sims, particularly Evochron Mercenary, when you set a heading and take your hand off the stick and it goes a little limp, the weight of the top of the stick makes it lean forward just a bit, causing your heading to drift downward. Yeah, it could be fixed by adjusting deadzones, but it shouldn't have to be.

The force feedback was sorta... meh. Not to say that the actual force was weak, but the overall effect was lacking. FFB is a cool idea, but it's not necessary and doesn't really add much to the experience.

I did have one smile-worthy moment with the stick, while I was flying in MSFSX. But that was more from the feeling of flying than from anything the stick did.

Overall, it's an okay HOTAS. But there is one huge, glaring, problem with the unit. It shows up as three separate controllers. The stick, throttle, and pedals all register as their own devices. This is a problem in nearly every single game that I want to play. Black Prophecy, DogFighter, MinerWars, StarLancer, The Polynomial, X3, and X-Wing Alliance all require one single device. If I can't play these games with it, then the G940 is useless to me.

So back to Amazon it goes. From here I'll either get a X52 Pro or a TM Warthog. I've done more research on CH Products, and I'm slowly getting convinced, but I'm not there yet. Its to the point that I'd probably choose CH over a X52 Pro, but I think I'd need more controls on the throttle with the space sims that I play.
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

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#3392273 - 09/17/11 08:37 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Chappy]
aRareKindOfMonster Offline
Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 1065
Erm... do you still the parts?

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#3392301 - 09/17/11 09:06 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: aRareKindOfMonster]
Renic Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: aRareKindOfMonster
Erm... do you still the parts?


No, I don't still the parts. I the parts back to Amazon. Amazon the parts Friday morning and my will be complete within 10 days. wink
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

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#3392305 - 09/17/11 09:14 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
aRareKindOfMonster Offline
Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 1065
Smart a$$!! biggrin

Did Amazon accept the x65 out of warranty? That's generous of them.

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#3392371 - 09/18/11 12:08 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: aRareKindOfMonster]
Renic Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Hahaha, yeah, thats me!

It wasn't an X65f that I sent back, it was the Logitech G940. I got it, had it for a little over 24 hours, packed it up and sent it right back on Monday. They got it on yesterday, Friday, and then processed my return. The refund should be in my account in 10 days or less. When it does, it's Warthog time! Well, probably. If I can get over the gut wrenching feeling of spending $450.

I've started playing DCS A-10C, and I've always loved the Warthog. Probably one of my favorite aircraft. Getting to "sit" in it makes me want the feeling of the "real" controls.

EDIT: And now I realize you were replying to Chappy, not my previous post. That's what I get for hopping on the forums still groggy from just waking up.


Edited by Renic (09/18/11 12:10 AM)
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

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#3392412 - 09/18/11 02:19 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
AggressorBLUE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 2540
Loc: Jerz
Originally Posted By: Renic
Hahaha, yeah, thats me!

It wasn't an X65f that I sent back, it was the Logitech G940. I got it, had it for a little over 24 hours, packed it up and sent it right back on Monday. They got it on yesterday, Friday, and then processed my return. The refund should be in my account in 10 days or less. When it does, it's Warthog time! Well, probably. If I can get over the gut wrenching feeling of spending $450.

I've started playing DCS A-10C, and I've always loved the Warthog. Probably one of my favorite aircraft. Getting to "sit" in it makes me want the feeling of the "real" controls.

EDIT: And now I realize you were replying to Chappy, not my previous post. That's what I get for hopping on the forums still groggy from just waking up.


remember, your not spending $450....

...your spending $450 PLUS the cost of rudder pedals.

The Saitek X52 at least has twist, so your not totally SOL in the yaw dept. Still, once you've gotten used to pedals, there's really no going back.
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#3392510 - 09/18/11 10:14 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Sokol1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 1307
Loc: Internet
Quote:
It shows up as three separate controllers. The stick, throttle, and pedals all register as their own devices. This is a problem in nearly every single game that I want to play. Black Prophecy, DogFighter, MinerWars...

So back to Amazon it goes. From here I'll either get a X52 Pro or a TM Warthog.


FYI - Notice that you find the same problem with Warthog + 3rd party pedal. They are show as two separate controllers for Windows/Games.

No issue with CH gear...

Sokol1

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#3392583 - 09/18/11 12:52 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
NamelessPFG Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 730
I still find it baffling that TM refuses to offer their own TARGET-compatible USB rudder pedals for that one reason.

The only way I know of to merge rudder pedals into the system without ripping the controller board out of, say, a T.16000-M and building rudder pedals around those would be to use a Cougar with gameport rudder pedals connected. Both Cougar and any sort of gameport pedals would be discontinued products, and if one already owns a Cougar, there's less incentive to get the Warthog.

I think someone might have figured out a way to hack TARGET to recognize third-party rudder pedals and program those, though...but he's not going to share his methods IIRC.

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#3392681 - 09/18/11 04:09 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: AggressorBLUE]
Renic Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: aggressorblue
remember, your not spending $450....

...your spending $450 PLUS the cost of rudder pedals.

The Saitek X52 at least has twist, so your not totally SOL in the yaw dept. Still, once you've gotten used to pedals, there's really no going back.


I've already got pedals. I have Saitek's Pro Flight Rudder Pedals. The one thing I was hoping with the G940 purchase was that I could transition my whole Saitek setup over to my spare computer so that my cousin could fly with me in the same room with rudders and all. He's an actual pilot so I know he prefers pedals to twist.

Originally Posted By: Sokol1
FYI - Notice that you find the same problem with Warthog + 3rd party pedal. They are show as two separate controllers for Windows/Games.

No issue with CH gear...


That is very true. I had forgotten about that.

...

I left this post open for about an hour and thought about this issue. I believe that this problem could be overcome by using PPJoy and GlovePIE, using a very similar method as to how I solved the issue of not being able to use Tactics abilities for the entire joystick using Black Prophecy community.

Basically, it goes like this:

Create a script in GlovePIE that redirects each axis of the joystick, throttle, and rudder pedals to the virtual PPJoy controller. This way all physical controllers can be seen as one controller in Windows. The problem you run into then (aside from the maximum of 8 axes) is assigning controls in the game. When assigning and you move the physical axis, the game would probably see both the real and virtual axes moving at the same time. Which one will be detected first and registered? Who knows. It would probably be a crapshoot. But to overcome this, and this is the clever bit, you need to create a second script in GlovePIE with the sole purpose of using it once to bind all the commands in-game. In this second script, you would assign each virtual PPJoy axis to something that is not an axis, like a key on your keyboard. Then you go in-game, assign the proper axes, save the bindings, stop the second script, and run the first. Voila. Now your game sees multiple axes from multiple controllers as one virtual controller because it's only expecting input from the virtual controller, whose virtual input is being provided by physical controllers. This is what I did to solve the Tactics issue with Black Prophecy. Actually, if I remember correctly, you might be able to assign the physical axes to the virtual ones in PPJoy itself. This would save you the trouble of needing to create the first script. Not certain though, since I haven't used PPJoy in some time now, since I stopped playing Black Prophecy because the developers have stopped supporting the joystick using part of the community.

I now realize that this could have solved my biggest issue with the G940, and probably would have kept me from sending it back. No biggie though, I wasn't that impressed with it anyway.

If my carpal tunnel wasn't flaring up enough to make every single movement with my left hand send shooting pain all the way up to my bicep right now, I'd get started on this immediately.
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog

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#3398415 - 09/27/11 03:12 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]
Derk Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 179
Loc: Hengelo, the Netherlands
Hey Renic,

Still wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts on the G940.
I decided to save me the trouble of dealing with its shortcomings and ordered a Saitek throttle quadrant instead and to hold on to my X52 for now. Together they'll provide most of my simming needs, for now.

Thanks!
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Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

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#3401434 - 10/01/11 11:20 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Derk]
Renic Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 161
Loc: Southern California
No problem, Derk.

I just got my Warthog HOTAS yesterday, and I posted my initial impressions of it in a separate thread here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3401429.html#Post3401429

Quick preview of the thread, I like it. A lot.
_________________________
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog

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