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#3383826 - 09/06/11 06:01 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: NamelessPFG]  
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Originally Posted By: NamelessPFG
I haven't had any serious problems with my Cougar, though it does have its quirks. (Throttle pot started having slightly irregular response, and the microstick pots are really screwed up.) But I think a lot of that boils down to the fact that mine was modded when I got it (FCC in the stick), and it's only been more extensively modded since then (specifically the throttle, which now has a Hall sensor and UTM bushings to eliminate the stiction).

The only way I would part with this thing is if money becomes really tight, though it's getting to that point where I may have to find a buyer for the FCC-1 and live on stock gimbals and pots for the time being.

What would ultimately be ideal, though, is if CH gear had the feel of TM gear, but kept everything else intact...


Agreed. The CH line could use some new blood, that's for sure.


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#3383896 - 09/06/11 06:53 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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So if i understand correctly, a lot, if not most CH owners have their gear modded or enhanced in some way, right?
Wouldn't it be fair to say that all hardware, including the G940 can be equally enjoyable when given the same TLC? (using Leo Bodnar's stuff to get rid of the -not so- Logitech comes to mind)

I don't mean to say that the two are equal one way or the other, but it seems to me that enjoyment comes at extra cost for CH stuff as well.
Just trying to see the big picture here so i can make a good decision on my next (and last for the upcoming decade or so) HOTAS.


Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

crap...
#3383992 - 09/06/11 08:22 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Derk]  
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Originally Posted By: Derk
So if i understand correctly, a lot, if not most CH owners have their gear modded or enhanced in some way, right?Wouldn't it be fair to say that all hardware, including the G940 can be equally enjoyable when given the same TLC? (using Leo Bodnar's stuff to get rid of the -not so- Logitech comes to mind)

I don't mean to say that the two are equal one way or the other, but it seems to me that enjoyment comes at extra cost for CH stuff as well.
Just trying to see the big picture here so i can make a good decision on my next (and last for the upcoming decade or so) HOTAS.


Some (45) ProThrottles are modded with the Franken-Potato mod. I wouldn't call that a lot. So to that, I'd have to say, wrong.


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


For your CH Products programming needs, come on over to: The CH-Hangar
#3384399 - 09/07/11 05:45 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: 531 Ghost]  
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Originally Posted By: 531 Ghost
Some (45) ProThrottles are modded with the Franken-Potato mod. I wouldn't call that a lot. So to that, I'd have to say, wrong.


+1

The thing about CH gear is that it simply works straight out of the box. Modding CH gear is more about enhancing the product than about correcting design / manufacturing flaws.

#3384653 - 09/07/11 03:30 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: 531 Ghost]  
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Originally Posted By: 531 Ghost
Originally Posted By: Derk
So if i understand correctly, a lot, if not most CH owners have their gear modded or enhanced in some way, right?Wouldn't it be fair to say that all hardware, including the G940 can be equally enjoyable when given the same TLC? (using Leo Bodnar's stuff to get rid of the -not so- Logitech comes to mind)

I don't mean to say that the two are equal one way or the other, but it seems to me that enjoyment comes at extra cost for CH stuff as well.
Just trying to see the big picture here so i can make a good decision on my next (and last for the upcoming decade or so) HOTAS.


Some (45) ProThrottles are modded with the Franken-Potato mod. I wouldn't call that a lot. So to that, I'd have to say, wrong.


There's what Ghost said for one.

For two, most modding CH gear is borne out of wanting a mod.

For a lot of the cougar owners, it seems many of it's mods are needed, especially in the throttle and switch gear.


My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ W/ Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo /Zotac GTX 970 AMP! Extreme Edition / 8 Gigs DDR3 1600 G.skills Ram / A Few SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

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HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
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Wow. this place went from 0 to Fox News in a hurry. ~ near_blind
#3385701 - 09/08/11 07:43 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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I'm sorry guys, got my CHs and Cougars mixed up! screwy

I just get kind of lost. At this point i might as well end up with a pair of Saitek throttle quadrants, a collective of some sort and an easily extendable joystick! (No, not THAT easily!)


Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

crap...
#3387024 - 09/10/11 10:09 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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So my G940 came today while I was sleeping, but siince I work graveyard, I haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet. But I did unbox it and check it out before I left for work.

My initial impression was that it was larger and more attractive than I thought it would be. The stick seems a little large for me, even though I have big ol' manhands. The throttle seems comfortable, but even with the resistance turned all the way up, its not stiff enough. I like a high resistance in my throttles. Also, the trim wheels on the throttle spin too easily, and there's no center detent to them. Due to this, they'll probably remain unused. All the buttons and hats seem to have a good resistance to them, and a good "click" feeling when they're pressed.

Also, the pedals are larger than I thought, which is good. They looked a bit too small in all the pictures.

Its too early to tell, so I'm reserving final judgement until I get a few hours of stick time with them. Unfortunately, I'm leaning way toward returning them already. If that turns out to be the case, I hope that Amazon can give me store credit instead of refunding my account. By the time I've tested and returned them, I'll have gotten paid again, and I'll be able to accecpt paying $200 for a Warthog setup.


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

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#3387159 - 09/10/11 04:39 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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I had an x65. Wow to find out what the insides looked like after it broke and ran out of warranty. I now have a thrustmaster cougar HOTAS. The difference is night and day. The x65 didn't hold center nor would it calibrate TO center when Saitek came out with the patches to their software. In the end I tried to see if it was under warranty and since it wasn't I was going to mount the stick on a 52 pro. I will never use a Saitek stick ever again. The pedals have held out great for about 4 years so far. In 6 years I have used an x45, 2 x52 pro's an x52 and have now gone through an x65. No more Saitek.


I want you to see this coming
#3387234 - 09/10/11 07:17 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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In over ten years I have only used ONE HOTAS, CH wink


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


For your CH Products programming needs, come on over to: The CH-Hangar
#3387492 - 09/11/11 04:47 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Well, that was quick. The G940 is packed back in its shipping box, waiting to be taken to the UPS store on Monday.

The thing performed reasonably well. I didn't find the stick to be as gravely as many people have said. There is a definite "gear" feeling when maneuvering, but its a soft feeling, almost squishy. The throttle resistance, while still too light, was okay in flight. But the pedals were rather uncomfortable for me.

The stick was very precise though. More so than my X52. But when your hand is off the stick, the FFB resistance lessens a lot. There's a small optical sensor on the right side of the stick, and when you first go to grab the stick, it's a little limp for half a second, and when your palm covers the sensor the FFB activates and the stick jumps to attention. It felt kinda cool. But in space sims, particularly Evochron Mercenary, when you set a heading and take your hand off the stick and it goes a little limp, the weight of the top of the stick makes it lean forward just a bit, causing your heading to drift downward. Yeah, it could be fixed by adjusting deadzones, but it shouldn't have to be.

The force feedback was sorta... meh. Not to say that the actual force was weak, but the overall effect was lacking. FFB is a cool idea, but it's not necessary and doesn't really add much to the experience.

I did have one smile-worthy moment with the stick, while I was flying in MSFSX. But that was more from the feeling of flying than from anything the stick did.

Overall, it's an okay HOTAS. But there is one huge, glaring, problem with the unit. It shows up as three separate controllers. The stick, throttle, and pedals all register as their own devices. This is a problem in nearly every single game that I want to play. Black Prophecy, DogFighter, MinerWars, StarLancer, The Polynomial, X3, and X-Wing Alliance all require one single device. If I can't play these games with it, then the G940 is useless to me.

So back to Amazon it goes. From here I'll either get a X52 Pro or a TM Warthog. I've done more research on CH Products, and I'm slowly getting convinced, but I'm not there yet. Its to the point that I'd probably choose CH over a X52 Pro, but I think I'd need more controls on the throttle with the space sims that I play.


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
#3392273 - 09/18/11 12:37 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Chappy]  
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Erm... do you still the parts?

#3392301 - 09/18/11 01:06 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: aRareKindOfMonster]  
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Originally Posted By: aRareKindOfMonster
Erm... do you still the parts?


No, I don't still the parts. I the parts back to Amazon. Amazon the parts Friday morning and my will be complete within 10 days. wink


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
#3392305 - 09/18/11 01:14 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Smart a$$!! biggrin

Did Amazon accept the x65 out of warranty? That's generous of them.

#3392371 - 09/18/11 04:08 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: aRareKindOfMonster]  
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Hahaha, yeah, thats me!

It wasn't an X65f that I sent back, it was the Logitech G940. I got it, had it for a little over 24 hours, packed it up and sent it right back on Monday. They got it on yesterday, Friday, and then processed my return. The refund should be in my account in 10 days or less. When it does, it's Warthog time! Well, probably. If I can get over the gut wrenching feeling of spending $450.

I've started playing DCS A-10C, and I've always loved the Warthog. Probably one of my favorite aircraft. Getting to "sit" in it makes me want the feeling of the "real" controls.

EDIT: And now I realize you were replying to Chappy, not my previous post. That's what I get for hopping on the forums still groggy from just waking up.

Last edited by Renic; 09/18/11 04:10 AM.

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
#3392412 - 09/18/11 06:19 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Originally Posted By: Renic
Hahaha, yeah, thats me!

It wasn't an X65f that I sent back, it was the Logitech G940. I got it, had it for a little over 24 hours, packed it up and sent it right back on Monday. They got it on yesterday, Friday, and then processed my return. The refund should be in my account in 10 days or less. When it does, it's Warthog time! Well, probably. If I can get over the gut wrenching feeling of spending $450.

I've started playing DCS A-10C, and I've always loved the Warthog. Probably one of my favorite aircraft. Getting to "sit" in it makes me want the feeling of the "real" controls.

EDIT: And now I realize you were replying to Chappy, not my previous post. That's what I get for hopping on the forums still groggy from just waking up.


remember, your not spending $450....

...your spending $450 PLUS the cost of rudder pedals.

The Saitek X52 at least has twist, so your not totally SOL in the yaw dept. Still, once you've gotten used to pedals, there's really no going back.


My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ W/ Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo /Zotac GTX 970 AMP! Extreme Edition / 8 Gigs DDR3 1600 G.skills Ram / A Few SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR TIR 5 w/ TrackClip Pro biggrin
Simpit: Obutto R3VOLUTION

Wow. this place went from 0 to Fox News in a hurry. ~ near_blind
#3392510 - 09/18/11 02:14 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Quote:
It shows up as three separate controllers. The stick, throttle, and pedals all register as their own devices. This is a problem in nearly every single game that I want to play. Black Prophecy, DogFighter, MinerWars...

So back to Amazon it goes. From here I'll either get a X52 Pro or a TM Warthog.


FYI - Notice that you find the same problem with Warthog + 3rd party pedal. They are show as two separate controllers for Windows/Games.

No issue with CH gear...

Sokol1

#3392583 - 09/18/11 04:52 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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I still find it baffling that TM refuses to offer their own TARGET-compatible USB rudder pedals for that one reason.

The only way I know of to merge rudder pedals into the system without ripping the controller board out of, say, a T.16000-M and building rudder pedals around those would be to use a Cougar with gameport rudder pedals connected. Both Cougar and any sort of gameport pedals would be discontinued products, and if one already owns a Cougar, there's less incentive to get the Warthog.

I think someone might have figured out a way to hack TARGET to recognize third-party rudder pedals and program those, though...but he's not going to share his methods IIRC.

#3392681 - 09/18/11 08:09 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: AggressorBLUE]  
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Originally Posted By: aggressorblue
remember, your not spending $450....

...your spending $450 PLUS the cost of rudder pedals.

The Saitek X52 at least has twist, so your not totally SOL in the yaw dept. Still, once you've gotten used to pedals, there's really no going back.


I've already got pedals. I have Saitek's Pro Flight Rudder Pedals. The one thing I was hoping with the G940 purchase was that I could transition my whole Saitek setup over to my spare computer so that my cousin could fly with me in the same room with rudders and all. He's an actual pilot so I know he prefers pedals to twist.

Originally Posted By: Sokol1
FYI - Notice that you find the same problem with Warthog + 3rd party pedal. They are show as two separate controllers for Windows/Games.

No issue with CH gear...


That is very true. I had forgotten about that.

...

I left this post open for about an hour and thought about this issue. I believe that this problem could be overcome by using PPJoy and GlovePIE, using a very similar method as to how I solved the issue of not being able to use Tactics abilities for the entire joystick using Black Prophecy community.

Basically, it goes like this:

Create a script in GlovePIE that redirects each axis of the joystick, throttle, and rudder pedals to the virtual PPJoy controller. This way all physical controllers can be seen as one controller in Windows. The problem you run into then (aside from the maximum of 8 axes) is assigning controls in the game. When assigning and you move the physical axis, the game would probably see both the real and virtual axes moving at the same time. Which one will be detected first and registered? Who knows. It would probably be a crapshoot. But to overcome this, and this is the clever bit, you need to create a second script in GlovePIE with the sole purpose of using it once to bind all the commands in-game. In this second script, you would assign each virtual PPJoy axis to something that is not an axis, like a key on your keyboard. Then you go in-game, assign the proper axes, save the bindings, stop the second script, and run the first. Voila. Now your game sees multiple axes from multiple controllers as one virtual controller because it's only expecting input from the virtual controller, whose virtual input is being provided by physical controllers. This is what I did to solve the Tactics issue with Black Prophecy. Actually, if I remember correctly, you might be able to assign the physical axes to the virtual ones in PPJoy itself. This would save you the trouble of needing to create the first script. Not certain though, since I haven't used PPJoy in some time now, since I stopped playing Black Prophecy because the developers have stopped supporting the joystick using part of the community.

I now realize that this could have solved my biggest issue with the G940, and probably would have kept me from sending it back. No biggie though, I wasn't that impressed with it anyway.

If my carpal tunnel wasn't flaring up enough to make every single movement with my left hand send shooting pain all the way up to my bicep right now, I'd get started on this immediately.


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
#3398415 - 09/27/11 07:12 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Hey Renic,

Still wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts on the G940.
I decided to save me the trouble of dealing with its shortcomings and ordered a Saitek throttle quadrant instead and to hold on to my X52 for now. Together they'll provide most of my simming needs, for now.

Thanks!


Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

crap...
#3401434 - 10/01/11 03:20 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Derk]  
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No problem, Derk.

I just got my Warthog HOTAS yesterday, and I posted my initial impressions of it in a separate thread here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3401429.html#Post3401429

Quick preview of the thread, I like it. A lot.


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
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