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#3380389 - 09/02/11 03:47 AM It's HOTAS Upgrade Time  
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Renic Offline
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Ok, so I've been using Saitek's X52 HOTAS and ProFlight Rudder Pedals, and it's about time to upgrade.

At the moment, it's between Saitek's X65-F and Logitech 's G940. Unfortunately, Thrustmaster's Warthog is just way out of my price range right now, and will continue to be for quite some time.

Also, I'm not a fan of CH Products.

So I have two questions:

One, am I forgetting any HOTAS setups to consider?

Two, given the two options above, which would YOU choose?


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3380525 - 09/02/11 10:59 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Well, that would depend on what you want to get out of it. X65 is a force sensing (means the stick doesn't move but senses you pushing pulling it in a certain direction and translates that to x/y output.) While the G940 is a regular stick that has Force Feedback and a set of rudder pedals. Also, G940 can have some hardware issues (spiking in throttle, i think rudder too.) but if you don't mind a bit of soldering (and to void warranty) that can be remedied. (look at the controller forums)

Anyway, read this and decide for yourself:
Clicky


Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

crap...
#3380599 - 09/02/11 01:08 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Originally Posted By: Renic
Ok, so I've been using Saitek's X52 HOTAS and ProFlight Rudder Pedals, and it's about time to upgrade.

At the moment, it's between Saitek's X65-F and Logitech 's G940. Unfortunately, Thrustmaster's Warthog is just way out of my price range right now, and will continue to be for quite some time.

Also, I'm not a fan of CH Products.

So I have two questions:

One, am I forgetting any HOTAS setups to consider?

Two, given the two options above, which would YOU choose?


Well, you might want to include the Saitek X-52 Pro version in your considerations, unless you are looking to make a bigger change partly for variety's sake. It would still be an upgrade, but it would not get you a split throttle controller. However, it would be pretty easy to convert your existing profiles over.

As for what to choose... There are so many variables to consider that you should factor into the selection. What things matter most to you?

Appearance? Reliability? The stick giving you vibration / bump cues? The stick being able to physically hold a Force trim position (DCS:BlackShark)? The stick not needing deflection space (Falcon side stick mounting)? Rudders included (seen as part of a single controller for older games/sims)? Split throttles?

#3380708 - 09/02/11 03:44 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Renic Offline
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Reliability is a must. Appearances don't matter to me as much as the performance. I would like a good looking setup, but if it handles like crap, then its worthless to me. The X52's stick is way too wobbly and loose, even with the minor mod that helps this out somewhat. Force Feedback seems like it might be a nice addition, but is in no way necessary for me. Included rudders would be nice for some of the games I play, but again, not necessary. And I really would like a split throttle.

Thanks for the link, Derk, reading through it now!


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
#3380740 - 09/02/11 04:26 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Originally Posted By: Renic
Reliability is a must.


If reliability really is a must, you've eliminated the most reliable from your list. wink


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


For your CH Products programming needs, come on over to: The CH-Hangar
#3380790 - 09/02/11 05:16 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Derk Offline
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You're welcome Renic. I am considering an upgrade myself (also from x52). Twin throttles is a must. The G940 really appeals to me considering i fly helicopters almost exclusively. I like the idea of FFB and not having a spring cetered mechanism. I am worried about the quality though and having pots instead of sensors. I just can't afford to buy one and end up not using it due to hardware issues. You see, i'm not that confident with soldering myself. wink
If i can find one cheap i might go for it. Else it's just saving up and get a Warthog somewhere down the line. IMO that's the only real upgrade alternative since i'm not a big fan of the x65.


Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

crap...
#3380815 - 09/02/11 05:36 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: 531 Ghost]  
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Renic Offline
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Yeah, I know. I forgot to say that excessive price trumps reliability. XD I drool over the Warthog every single day. But I can't afford $450 for a stick. That's like 2/3rds of my bi-monthly paycheck. Maybe if I could get one on an installment plan, lol!

I spent a few hours going over reviews and comparisons of the X52 and X52 Pro, and decided that I'm not going to spend $150 to get what could be called an incremental upgrade, at best. I do like the ergonomics of the X52's setup, but I want something completely different.

Also, I'd definitely consider a Thrustmaster Cougar, but I can't seem to find one in stock anywhere!

After reading plenty of reviews, I'm not sold on the X65's force sensing technology.

It looks like I'm going to pick up the G940 after all.


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
#3380858 - 09/02/11 06:40 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Originally Posted By: Renic
Yeah, I know. I forgot to say that excessive price trumps reliability. XD I drool over the Warthog every single day. But I can't afford $450 for a stick. That's like 2/3rds of my bi-monthly paycheck. Maybe if I could get one on an installment plan, lol!


531Ghost's reference to reliability was about CH Products' offerings being off of your list. wink

Last edited by CyBerkut; 09/02/11 06:40 PM.
#3380889 - 09/02/11 07:26 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Originally Posted By: CyBerkut
Originally Posted By: Renic
Yeah, I know. I forgot to say that excessive price trumps reliability. XD I drool over the Warthog every single day. But I can't afford $450 for a stick. That's like 2/3rds of my bi-monthly paycheck. Maybe if I could get one on an installment plan, lol!


531Ghost's reference to reliability was about CH Products' offerings being off of your list. wink


wink


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


For your CH Products programming needs, come on over to: The CH-Hangar
#3381422 - 09/03/11 03:21 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Renic Offline
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Originally Posted By: CyBerkut
531Ghost's reference to reliability was about CH Products' offerings being off of your list. wink


Heh, yeah, I realized that after the fact, considering his signature. smile

Just never been a fan of their stuff, dunno why. Never had any real experience with them, so maybe if I tried I would like them.

But I bit the bullet last night and ordered a G940. $260 with free shipping from Amazon. Gonna torture test it when it arrives, and if it's not up to snuff, it's getting sent back. Hopefully my cockpit will be in at least flyable condition when it gets here, lol!


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
#3381578 - 09/03/11 08:09 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Derk Offline
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Same here, CH just doesn't appeal to me much. But then again I never saw one in real life either.
Please keep us posted about your thoughts on the 940. I'm interested in what you think of it.


Derk
I'm still an airman. I just happen to change diapers for a living!

crap...
#3381719 - 09/03/11 11:24 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Jerz
Originally Posted By: Renic
Originally Posted By: CyBerkut
531Ghost's reference to reliability was about CH Products' offerings being off of your list. wink


Heh, yeah, I realized that after the fact, considering his signature. smile

Just never been a fan of their stuff, dunno why. Never had any real experience with them, so maybe if I tried I would like them.

But I bit the bullet last night and ordered a G940. $260 with free shipping from Amazon. Gonna torture test it when it arrives, and if it's not up to snuff, it's getting sent back. Hopefully my cockpit will be in at least flyable condition when it gets here, lol!


You made a mistake. Trust me. The 940 will break your heart. It looks awesome, doesn't it? Dual throttles, rotary trims RIGHT where you want them, those neat 3-way led buttons, force feedback, hall sensors, metal pedal inlays....

Yea, I was sold too.

Then came the problems: The pots started spiking in the rotary trims on the throttles, then the throttles stopped registering in snyc (ie, if I locked them physically together, one would still lag behind the other digitally). Then the pedals started sticking (not as bad, I can still use them, but I give them less than a seasons use before they die). Plus, the FF stinks, it's like someone poured rocks into the gear mesh. The software and after-market support suck too. I Have yet to see a real way to use those three way buttons on the throttle.

I'd also say flying heli's with it is ill-advised. The need for constant forward stick pressure puts stress on the FF motors. Not a big deal though, as the pots will fail long before the motors do.

I've used the G940, Saitek X52, and CH HOTAS gear.

the CH stuff isn't perfect, but it works, it's precise, it's programmable, and it works.

Did I mention the CH stuff works?

My advice: Learn to like the CH gear. It's the best available right now.


Last edited by aggressorblue; 09/03/11 11:28 PM.

My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ W/ Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo / GTX 1070/ 16 Gigs DDR3 RAM / A Few SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR TIR 5 w/ TrackClip Pro biggrin
Simpit: Obutto R3VOLUTION


#3381803 - 09/04/11 01:39 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Looks aren't everything when it comes to flight sim controllers. On that note, yes, CH gear is very reliable, and you can program just about anything you can imagine to it.

#3382253 - 09/04/11 08:23 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Renic Offline
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Derk: Will do.

Aggressorblue: Thanks for the input. I'll definitely keep a look out for those issue. But the problem with flying helis isn't a problem for me since I don't, lol. A question though: How long and how much use did you get before the G940 failed on you?


"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin

"I won't bow out bravely. I'll be kicking, screaming, fighting. To the end."

"I'm throwing Pit Building against the wall to see what sticks!"

Renic's Simpit blog
#3382282 - 09/04/11 09:03 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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It's too bad Thrustmaster isn't an option because its in the same category of quality CH gear is in, only its more expensive and doesn't look like a 1980's controller. My only issue with CH has ever been looks (a large number agree), I'll bet the person in charge of looks drives a mint Trans-Am wears a denim jacket (sleeves may or may not be present) and rocks out to Motley Crue on the way to the office (no offense M.C.)!

If they could just re-design the look of their equipment they would not only have the best in terms of quality but looks too.

Last edited by HitchHikingFlatlander; 09/04/11 09:04 PM.

I've got a bad feeling about this.....
#3382353 - 09/04/11 11:01 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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Originally Posted By: Renic
Derk: Will do.

Aggressorblue: Thanks for the input. I'll definitely keep a look out for those issue. But the problem with flying helis isn't a problem for me since I don't, lol. A question though: How long and how much use did you get before the G940 failed on you?


NP, I'd say I got about 4 months of modest use before major issues popped up.


My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ W/ Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo / GTX 1070/ 16 Gigs DDR3 RAM / A Few SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR TIR 5 w/ TrackClip Pro biggrin
Simpit: Obutto R3VOLUTION


#3382360 - 09/04/11 11:27 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: HitchHikingFlatlander]  
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Jerz
Originally Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander
It's too bad Thrustmaster isn't an option because its in the same category of quality CH gear is in, only its more expensive and doesn't look like a 1980's controller. My only issue with CH has ever been looks (a large number agree), I'll bet the person in charge of looks drives a mint Trans-Am wears a denim jacket (sleeves may or may not be present) and rocks out to Motley Crue on the way to the office (no offense M.C.)!

If they could just re-design the look of their equipment they would not only have the best in terms of quality but looks too.


Uh, what? Sorry, but unless your talking about old school TM (Saturn ring anyone?), then no, TM isn't in the same league. Some observations:

-There's been more reported failures of Warthog equipment than it's CH analog within the SimHQ forums.

-In Joe Keefe's SimHQ review of the Warthog, he goes out of his way to disassemble the review unit, acknowledging a major concern from the community that it would follow in the footsteps of the failure-prone Cougar. See for yourself.

-The Warthog "fleet" is less than a year old, so it's too early to tell if it will hold up.

-In the TM MFD review, one of the units had already had a back-lighting failure.

Now, the cast metal build of the Cougar and Warthog might feel solid, but if they can't withstand the test of time, sooner or later your left with just an awesome looking/feeling static display.

Last edited by aggressorblue; 09/04/11 11:28 PM.

My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ W/ Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo / GTX 1070/ 16 Gigs DDR3 RAM / A Few SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR TIR 5 w/ TrackClip Pro biggrin
Simpit: Obutto R3VOLUTION


#3382776 - 09/05/11 03:49 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: HitchHikingFlatlander]  
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Originally Posted By: HitchHikingFlatlander
It's too bad Thrustmaster isn't an option because its in the same category of quality CH gear is in, only its more expensive and doesn't look like a 1980's controller. My only issue with CH has ever been looks (a large number agree), I'll bet the person in charge of looks drives a mint Trans-Am wears a denim jacket (sleeves may or may not be present) and rocks out to Motley Crue on the way to the office (no offense M.C.)!

If they could just re-design the look of their equipment they would not only have the best in terms of quality but looks too.



THAT my friend, is funny!


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


For your CH Products programming needs, come on over to: The CH-Hangar
#3383044 - 09/05/11 08:48 PM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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As a proud owner of an HOTAS Cougar, I must agree with aggressorblue. Even then the quality of the assembly left a lot to be desired, and a lot of cougars fell to ungreased gymbal wear, misaligned switches and poor pots. Not to mention the throttle pot failing if the unit was programmed with the throttle at one extreme, something I think got fixed in the later revisions. My cougar had a few switches rotated to be closer to the F16 ones, the axle re-greased immediately after it was bought and lately the pots have been replaced with homemade hall sensors. It's fantastic, but it it didn't come out of the box like this.

Last edited by Brandano; 09/05/11 08:49 PM.
#3383427 - 09/06/11 05:39 AM Re: It's HOTAS Upgrade Time [Re: Renic]  
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I haven't had any serious problems with my Cougar, though it does have its quirks. (Throttle pot started having slightly irregular response, and the microstick pots are really screwed up.) But I think a lot of that boils down to the fact that mine was modded when I got it (FCC in the stick), and it's only been more extensively modded since then (specifically the throttle, which now has a Hall sensor and UTM bushings to eliminate the stiction).

The only way I would part with this thing is if money becomes really tight, though it's getting to that point where I may have to find a buyer for the FCC-1 and live on stock gimbals and pots for the time being.

What would ultimately be ideal, though, is if CH gear had the feel of TM gear, but kept everything else intact...

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