Registered: 10/11/99
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Loc: Leeds, England
Star Wars is FUBAR. I really don't give it the time of day anymore unless I can pour more scorn and vile bitterness over what was once something quite precious to my childhood. I know these videos are just someone's remix based on a rumour but it's so outrageous and lame you believe it.
In the first, Vader didn't say anything IIRC. I think he should, just not that maybe. LOL I can see it though, kind of fits. The second, can't tell the difference, I haven't seen it enough to know the difference. The third...it was always weird, now just a different kinda weird. How about just a car alarm instead? Then Ben can hit the button and reset it on his way down. scarp-scarp
I really hope that's a fake because adding those "no's" were completely unnecessary IMHO.
Sigh.
I agree, I think it had more drama without him speaking. IMO, It actually takes away from the scene because you as the viewer are no longer using the visual cues to sense his turmoil since the NO's are spoon feeding it to you.
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You can just turn down the volume. The puppet Yoda used in TPM was always lame, I'm glad it got replaced. As for the Krayt Dragon call, that's been messed with in every release. The 97 version was different, the 2004 version was different, and now 2011 again. I'm old school and like the original the most, but it's a personal preference thing anyway. At this point, it's almost become a game to pick out the changes made in each release.
Besides, can anyone say the 2004 Jabba in Ep 4 wasn't a massive improvement over the 97 version? Ugh. Ditto Ian as the Emperor in ESB instead of old woman/monkey face, or the Wampa.
I do think the theatrical releases should've been included as well, but that's Lucas.
The Jedi Master
_________________________
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#3378805 - 08/31/1107:01 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Jeevz]
Clydewinder
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Originally Posted By: Jeevz
Why does he have to keep ****ing with them?!?
because he's an idiot.
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"Whenever we depart from voluntary cooperation and try to do good by using force, the bad moral value of force triumphs over good intentions." -Friedman "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." -Rand
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Yeah, who could argue it was theirs over him? Even Fox had nothing but distro rights after the first film, and on the first film Lucas still managed to retain a lot of it.
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Back off, man. I'm a scientist.
un-frakkin-believable! I'm getting close to canceling my preorder of the boxset! LOL
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Aaron Williams who does comics including "Nodwick" and "PS-238" had an interesting link related to this on his site where he also pulls out some of the more interesting quotes. Starts in the third block:
Star Wars is huge because it hits home with my (presumably "our") generation. Great flicks from our childhood. It's always made money thanks to my generation, and that's not just due to being fun movies but memories associated with the time. These changes might be small, but they take away from the fun and the memory. I understand wanting to perfect as the technology advances, but offering a polished version of the original should come first, maybe these extras on another edition also on the disc. Plenty of room on blu-ray for both. Same goes for Blade Runner. Just polish the original that I know and love and let me relive that. I'd imagine Raiders of the Lost Ark will get this treatment one day. I really don't want Indy to face that big swordsman in the marketplace and throw a fish at him instead of shooting him with disinterest.
#3380831 - 09/02/1110:56 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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My fundamental problem with the change to the Vader scene when Luke is being electrocuted by Palpatine is that absolutely NO WORDS are necessary to convey what is going on inside Vader's mind while his son is being tortured. David Prowse's subtle movements was more than plenty to convey the emotion. Adding words to him in that scene is like banging the audience over the head with a huge rolling pin saying "get it? get it? Vader is upset here!!!".
It's like...tossing in a unicorn grenade. Maybe next he'll remove the intro text, since the audience should be able to get the idea on their own anyway.
#3380844 - 09/02/1111:16 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Raw Kryptonite]
PanzerMeyer
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Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite
Maybe next he'll remove the intro text, since the audience should be able to get the idea on their own anyway.
No he wouldn't do that considering that he thinks modern audiences are too dumb to figure out what is going on as evidenced by the change to the Vader ROTJ scene.
My fundamental problem with the change to the Vader scene when Luke is being electrocuted by Palpatine is that absolutely NO WORDS are necessary to convey what is going on inside Vader's mind while his son is being tortured. David Prowse's subtle movements was more than plenty to convey the emotion. Adding words to him in that scene is like banging the audience over the head with a huge rolling pin saying "get it? get it? Vader is upset here!!!".
Indeed. There are some scenes where words are unnecessary and in fact would damage the scene. There are many examples of this in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and this scene in Star Wars is another example. Audiences are not idiots and don't like being treated as such. As my old acting teacher said, God rest him: 'Less is more'.
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I think Prousse's physical cues are more than enough to clue the viewer into the subtleties of the inner turmoil that were going on in that instant, but at least Darth doesn't yell, "Padme!"
After the greedo shoots first #%&*$# storm, you think he would learn...
+1
After realizing what GL was doing to the films for the BRD release I was mad for about one minute. Now I just feel bored and disinterested about the whole thing. Oh well..."we will always have Paris the original trilogy."
_________________________
"Patrocles, yes we get old and peak sexaully [sic] after 18yo. At least we are not as flaccid as that guy who enjoys Scylla's beautiful response!" -name withheld by request.
People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society.
#3381655 - 09/03/1103:09 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
letterboy1
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It's kind of funny that one of the early goals of Lucas revisiting Star Wars was to rescue it from the natural physical degeneration of the film medium. Now the movie has the potential to degenerate while actually retaining pristine audio and visual quality.
People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society.
I disagree with that. The creator of any work of art has the full right to change it or do whatever they feel like to it regardless of whether or not fans of that work of art like it or not. An exception of course would be if that artist sold the rights to the work to someone else which is certainly not the case with Lucas and Star Wars.
People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society.
I disagree with that. The creator of any work of art has the full right to change it or do whatever they feel like to it regardless of whether or not fans of that work of art like it or not. An exception of course would be if that artist sold the rights to the work to someone else which is certainly not the case with Lucas and Star Wars.
Except that Empire and Jedi, although the legal property of Lucas Films, are not the creative work of Lucas, which was only a producer.
It it the equivalent of having the Cloth Guild that financed Michelangelo's David to have changed the sculpture, lets say, by adding a pair of pants, after he was done with it.
Should France draw pink flowers in the Mona Lisa? Should the current licensee change the music in Lawrence of Arabia?
They would still be entitled to do it, but it still would be an act of barbarism and ignorance.
And I would argue that if anyone starts changing all the classical music, books, plays,or films to suit the whim of whoever own the rights, there is surely basis to say that whoever does that, is committing a destructive tampering with culture and art.
So I don't care if he owns the rights, Lucas is still a moron for not appreciating the value of his own original films.
_________________________ "Hello. It's me, Jesus. I'm calling you from The Matrix."
#3381792 - 09/03/1106:13 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
Arthonon
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While technically Lucas was only a producer on some of the films, I think his influence runs through them, and not only does he hold the license, but they are really an expression of his story-telling desires, across all areas (design, visuals, story, etc.).
So while I don't like the changes he's making, I feel he is the creative force behind them and has the right to change them. There is no one person responsible for how a film turns out, so I think you have to find the person that had the most control over their creation to assign the authority to make changes, and I feel that George Lucas is clearly that person.
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#3381885 - 09/03/1109:57 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna
Except that Empire and Jedi, although the legal property of Lucas Films, are not the creative work of Lucas, which was only a producer.
This is incorrect. Both Empire and ROTJ were still Lucas' stories, characters and vision. He didn't direct those two films but do you think those directors had full creative freedom to do what they wanted? Certainly not. Sure, he had others like Kasdan and Kurtz co-write the screenplays but they were still working within the parameters set up by Lucas.
#3382359 - 09/04/1104:25 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
letterboy1
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Because of the ability to change movies with technology, we might find film joining the ranks of other centuries old disciplines of entertainment and art.
Look at great works by composers, playwrights, and choreographers. The "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" that Mozart conducted may not quite be the version we hear conducted at some venue like Radio City Music Hall today . . . and that's an example where you could argue that so much time has passed that we are not sure what the composer's notes really meant.
I watched a YouTube clip of Igor Stravinsky conducting an orchestra playing his own Firebird Suite. I've heard versions that were clearly very different, but those conductors couldn't possibly have an excuse for not knowing how the composer intended it to sound.
Swan Lake - originally bombed. Tchaikovsky practically disowned it as a result. After Tchaikovsky's death, a revival was attempted that included a complete revamping of the staging and also some minor reworking of the music by P.I.'s brother, Modest Tchaikovsky. BAM!!! Success and a new standard in worldwide ballet repertoire. (Now there is even a gay version by director Mathew Bourne)
How many revisionings can you think of just for Shakespear's works?
Wagner's Ring Cycle - there is a version where the director figured he was making the story more relevant by placing it in an industrial present-day setting, complete with the opening scene at a hydro-electric power plant. As if Wagner thought that the flying Valkyries actually existed and were relevant in his time. But I digress.
My point is that wether the work belongs to the person who is altering it or not, we as a human society have over the centuries claimed ownership and artistic rights of other people's creations. I imagine it will continue.
#3382454 - 09/04/1108:19 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
Clydewinder
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Why couldn't George completely remove Jar Jar from the bluray version of Phantom Menace? Now THAT I wouldn't mind.
I wish he would replace all the blasters and light sabers with walkie-talkies. Those movies are just too violent.
_________________________
"Whenever we depart from voluntary cooperation and try to do good by using force, the bad moral value of force triumphs over good intentions." -Friedman "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." -Rand
#3382467 - 09/04/1108:33 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Clydewinder]
Clydewinder
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Originally Posted By: Clydewinder
Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Why couldn't George completely remove Jar Jar from the bluray version of Phantom Menace? Now THAT I wouldn't mind.
I wish he would replace all the blasters and light sabers with walkie-talkies. Those movies are just too violent.
Something like this maybe:
_________________________
"Whenever we depart from voluntary cooperation and try to do good by using force, the bad moral value of force triumphs over good intentions." -Friedman "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." -Rand
Luke was to much of a daddys boy not to turn to the darkside. They could of had Leia killed the empirer and ruled the galaxy has a family. Just like in the GodFather movies. That will be a new version soon hehe.
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Never rub another man's rhubarb.
#3383358 - 09/05/1108:06 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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I didn't mind the change to using Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine in the scene in ESB when Vader speaks to him via the holograph. You could clearly tell with the original Papatine in that scene that it was a completely different actor and his face looked all wrong.
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It wasn't a he. It was an old woman with weird makeup and chimp's eyes overlaid with an actor doing a voice over.
Anyway, the thing that no one wants to admit, but George is happy to remind everyone each time these things get rereleased is that Star Wars isn't supposed to be good!
You ever watch one of those old serials from the 30s? I've seen several, they suck. Hard. The stories are outrageous, the acting is atrocious, the villains twirl mustaches better than a champion color guard team, the effects are laughable, the situations unbelievable, and the good guys win via deus ex machinas that make the Matrix films seem like a trilogy of sheer brilliance. They ONLY appealed to children because children didn't mind that stuff. Watch a show on the Disney channel and you'll see what crap passes for good entertainment for kids.
Lucas wanted to make a modern day serial just in 2hr format instead of weekly bits. It was a big mistake that they weren't close enough for him originally, so he's been tweaking them whenever possible. The new lines at the end of ROTJ are a no-brainer...it repeats the end of ROTS, but this time he's not going to let the Emperor win like he did then. He kills Palpatine and saves his son, sacrificing himself, instead of letting his loved ones die while he lives as a shadow of himself. So, NO!!
Don't like it? Too bad. Lucas doesn't have to care. He hasn't had to for a long time now. Oh, and they're still 100x better than most films released in the last 30 years, a long distinguished line of crap.
The Jedi Master
_________________________
Back off, man. I'm a scientist.
#3383575 - 09/06/1105:16 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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I disagree that Lucas intended for the Star Wars movies to not be good. These aren't intentional cheesy B movies like Attack of the Killer Tomatoes or Earth Girls Are Easy. However I do agree that the Star Wars movies were made from the outset to appeal to a younger audience just like the 30's Gordon serials.
He's just striving to make them his idea of perfection. I see it all the time when it comes to creative arts - some people can't put something down, or remake it years after the fact. Lucas is just one of those people who, when presented with the chance to, in his mind, "put right what once went wrong* ", will do so. And continue to do so, in all probability, as his idea of perfection and the audience's idea of perfection tinged with nostalgia continue to diverge.
Of course, his idea of improvement doesn't seem to coincide with the rest of society, or at least the target audience. Isn't going to stop him, and as the originator and holder of the copyright, he's perfectly within his rights to... screw it up more. As we probably still have the VHS versions lying around somewhere at home, I'm not in a big rush to make any more SW-oriented purchases.
*I couldn't help injecting that quote. Please don't shoot me.
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I don't mean films like Amazon Women on the Moon, I mean he wasn't trying to make a film that people would put up there with Citizen Kane or Patton. He wanted the dialogue that makes some cringe. He wanted the acting to seem stiff and forced. He wanted it to appeal to the under-12 crowd above all else, to match what he saw when he was under-12.
As soon as you start trying to analyze it too much, you turn into one of those art critics who write a 3 page essay on the meaning of a painting that consists of a plain black canvas...
The Jedi Master
_________________________
Back off, man. I'm a scientist.
I have to admit I dont mind the first no. However I hate the NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I would almost perfer he had Padme screaming into his head. Or a voiceover when she said she loved him right before he chocked her. I dont know just me
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Sorry, i just got lost for a minute, carry on.
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#3388856 - 09/12/1108:53 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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I don't think there is another a franchise out there that has disappointed the 35+ year old crowd more than Star Wars with the prequels and changes made to the original trilogy.
I don't know, do kids these days even care about Star Wars? Anyone with kids under the age of 15 want to chime in?
Anyway, the thing that no one wants to admit, but George is happy to remind everyone each time these things get rereleased is that Star Wars isn't supposed to be good!
You ever watch one of those old serials from the 30s? I've seen several, they suck. Hard. The stories are outrageous, the acting is atrocious, the villains twirl mustaches better than a champion color guard team, the effects are laughable, the situations unbelievable, and the good guys win via deus ex machinas that make the Matrix films seem like a trilogy of sheer brilliance. They ONLY appealed to children because children didn't mind that stuff. Watch a show on the Disney channel and you'll see what crap passes for good entertainment for kids.
Lucas wanted to make a modern day serial just in 2hr format instead of weekly bits. It was a big mistake that they weren't close enough for him originally, so he's been tweaking them whenever possible. The new lines at the end of ROTJ are a no-brainer...it repeats the end of ROTS, but this time he's not going to let the Emperor win like he did then. He kills Palpatine and saves his son, sacrificing himself, instead of letting his loved ones die while he lives as a shadow of himself. So, NO!!
agree with jedi i do.
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My kids certainly like the Rifftrax versions of the prequels. They find Anakin so dull and still make jokes about hating sand. They loved the recent LEGO Star Wars short film. I shall ask them tomorrow about the original trilogy, I guess they see them as 'old' films and not that interesting. Quite often the first question I'm asked is "Is this an old film?" Like it's a bad thing.
And is it normal for a 10 year old to enjoy Kubrick's 2001? He loves that, except the monkey bit.
One can only hope that he finally decides to give us back the real thing... It's amazing with how few times I have seen the movies that even I can pick out an altered scene almost without fail.
Found an interesting comment in the section below that article:
Quote:
If people stopped buying the revisions Lucas would stop making them.
Quite simple really.
Such a shame that the fan base don't get that to stop him doing what they hate they must stop buying into the Star Wars franchise.
Sums it up quite nice, really.
It's really no more complex than that. The only real power we have as a collective group of consumers is to not buy a product. Any other kind of protest is meaningless.
I liked the Simon Pegg tweet referenced in the BBC article. He's great. Anyways, on the ball as usual:
Quote:
Always loved Vader's wordless self sacrifice. Another s****y, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin's ghost. What a f******* shame.
So true. There was a lot of power in that scene.
I know I'm in the minority but I AM the consumer who votes with his wallet and have only ever bought releases that contain the theatric originals (I have the DVDs, and the Laserdiscs).
This is not a director/artist/creator speaking. He is now a plain businessman. SW is no longer an endearing piece of cinema for him. It's just a product.
_________________________ "Hello. It's me, Jesus. I'm calling you from The Matrix."
#3392508 - 09/18/1107:12 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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Originally Posted By: Bib4Tuna
This is not a director/artist/creator speaking. He is now a plain businessman. SW is no longer an endearing piece of cinema for him. It's just a product.
**shrug** That just makes Lucas the same as 95% of other directors/writers/producers in Hollywood.
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He's creative on the Clone Wars cartoon. The 6 films are the past now.
That said, I saw Ep I on BD last night, and the changes there (CG Yoda) were for the better. The new puppet they built for that film just never worked right, never had the "soul" the original did.
The Jedi Master
_________________________
Back off, man. I'm a scientist.
September 8th, 2011 George Lucas Tells Fans Wanting Original Versions "Grow Up"
The internet has been buzzing with original-version Star Wars news this week because of the latest round of Special Edition butchery. This marks the fourth update in five days so catch up if you haven't visited the site lately!
Hollywood gossip site Laineygossip.com is reporting that when an admirer politely asked Lucas at a party why he didn't release the original films that mean so much to so many people, Lucas rolled his eyes and said: "Grow up. These are my movies, not yours." Weird to be so rude when the lifestyle and success he and his family enjoy has been based on people being unusually interested in these movies. But then, he has basically said the same thing to reporters over the years anyway, which is why I'm inclined to believe the report is real, even if it's just gossip. Such a reaction is, of course, entirely hypocritical since he has complained about old classics being tampered with as recently as 2004 and this very year remarked, "I am a staunch believer that it's important that we all make an effort to preserve our cinematic heritage--before it's too late." The reporter also brings up the point that Lucas neither wrote nor directed two thirds of the original trilogy, and thus his rather silly "Mine!" attitude is suspect, to say the least.
The reporter writes: "The geeks eventually got their face time with Lucas and I want to stress how respectful these guys were, and that they paid a lot of money for face time with Lucas. This was not a surprise interaction; Lucas came to this event knowing he'd be expected to mingle with the peons. I don't advocate bugging celebrities in their daily lives, but this was a professional event designed to encourage these interactions. The guys were not out of bounds. They started by telling Lucas that they loved him/the movies/grew up watching them. Then they very politely asked why he wouldn't make the original versions of the movies available on DVD/Blu-Ray. They stressed that they don't mind the retroactive edits (doubtful, but they were being nice), they just wanted good digital copies of the original cuts, too. Lucas's response? An eyeroll and a huffy, "Grow up. These are my movies, not yours."
September 8th, 2011 ILM Effects Legend Phil Tippett Bashes the Special Edition
Movies.com reports: "Last night the Alamo Drafthouse in Austin, TX held a very special screening of Jurassic Park and flew in Phil Tippett, one of the visual effects masterminds behind the film, for a Q&A, which ended up being the surprise highlight of the night." Tippett was candid and honest as usual.
Questions came regarding the new Star Wars Blu Rays, since they were on everyone's minds as of late. Tippett, you may recall, began his career as one of the original artists at ILM when it opened up shop. He provided the stop-animation for Star Wars (the 3D chess board), and performed the stop-animation for the AT-AT Imperial Walkers and the Taun-Taun's in Empire Strikes Back, and the Rancor puppeteering on Return of the Jedi, among other duties. It didn't take long before he was asked about Lucas' endless tinkering with all the pioneering visual effects work on the films, and Tippett, perhaps not surprisingly, hates the changes as much as fans.
"They're sh!t," he says about the Special Editions. He calls them unnecessary, citing as one example Lucas' choice to shoot Mos Eisely originally as a barren bordertown that recalled similar locales in Sergio Leone westerns. Now, he says, it's "filled with a bunch of...CGI sh!t."
#3393729 - 09/19/1109:35 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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I don't know, I'm a bit divided on Lucas' response to the fans in the article you posted. While I think Lucas could have explained his position without resorting to personal insults, I also have to agree with him that these are indeed his movies to do as he likes. Like what has been mentioned before, the ONLY thing that would influence Lucas is if people didn't buy the new bluray set and I don't think that is going to happen to any significant degree.
#3394530 - 09/20/1109:24 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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Lucas gets criticized a lot for Howard the Duck but the truth is that he had no creative involvement at all with the movie. He was simply an executive producer who lent his name to the credits so the film could secure better financing.
I've always loved SW, I even enjoyed the prequels. Yes they have their wtf moments but I enjoyed them anyway.
I just finished watching 3 seasons of the Clone Wars Cartoon which is phenomal. Figured it would be a good idea to watch the prequels again... and they're ruined!
The whole time I just can't stop feeling 'Why are there live action actors in a cartoon??' The effect is jarring for me now and the movies are just not the same. I'm seriously thinking if they did the prequels as Cartoons they would have been better.
#3394757 - 09/21/1108:14 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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IMHO, "Revenge of the Sith" was a huge improvement in quality over the previous 2 prequels and I'd rank it equally with Return of the Jedi.
I think the fundamental issue here is that all of us grew up but George Lucas' film-making philosophy behind the SW franchise did not. That's why I asked the previous question about whether or not kids of today enjoyed the prequels and it does seem that kids enjoyed the prequels just as much as we enjoyed the original trilogy when we were kids.
#3394797 - 09/21/1109:20 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
Arthonon
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Yeah, I'd even rate "Revenge of the Sith" slightly above ROTJ, but I was really disappointed with ROTJ.
I was 14 when Star Wars came out, and what appealed to me most was the WWII style action set in space - being as my Dad worked on Bombers in WWII and I had an interest in the era, and also like science fiction/space stuff, it immediately hit a chord with me.
"The Empire Strikes Back" took everything I thought was cool about the first Star Wars and took the story forward in an interesting and well-written way, which appealed to my slightly more adult 17 year-old self.
ROTJ just seemed to re-hash much of the original Star Wars, and added teddy bears, and the whole Luke/Leia sibling thing and was a real step down when compared to TESB, in my opinion.
Comparing the prequels to the original three, I think the prequels are still a step down in targeted audience, at least in how they turned out (it's very possible, or even likely, that the first two appealed to an older age range than Lucas was targeting). Intentional or not, the first two/three films hit the sweet spot that could appeal to a wide age range, and the first two prequels came in a little low to achieve the same mass appeal, I think.
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#3394801 - 09/21/1109:24 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
Clydewinder
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interesting... revenge of the sith was the only star wars movie where i stood up and laughed out loud in the theater... ( mind you laughing AT the movie not WITH the movie )
personally i find very little to like in any of them except the original and empire strikes back
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Quite. If I was forced (no pun intended) to watch one of the prequels again it would probably be the second one, which at least has some quieter moments amid all the attention-deficeit CGI. But it's certainly a "least worst" scenario.
ROTJ's saving grace (that is until Lucas ballsed that up too, with another ill-advised "noooo" moment) was the throne-room scene with Vader, Luke and the Emporer. The music, the backdrop, the fates in the balance, the inner turmoil, the revalation, the silent (again, until Lucas... etc.) self-sacrifice of Vader. One of the highlights of the entire series, for me. Obviously not sustained for the whole film but still, certainly something to enjoy!
I haven't watched any of the cartoon series yet - I am saving it for a rainy day (month) when I'll watch a load of it through.
Edit: On the "youth of today" question. I'm sure kids now enjoy the new Starwars films. But then they also enjoy the Transformers films, and other silly CGI-fests full of ridiculous fight-scenes and bright, primary colors.
The key difference between then and now is that the original Starwars was a defining phenomenon of the 70s and 80s. There is absolutely no chance in hell that the prequels will be seen as defining movie events for kids growing up today, nothing particularly standout about them at all. The thirty-somethings of 2030 will not be complaining about how Lucas butchered their childhood by revamping "The Phantom Menace". For the fifth time.
#3395055 - 09/21/1103:22 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
Arthonon
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Interesting how everyone sees the different films. For me, AOTC had a decent ending, but the interactions and dialog between Padme and Anakin were incredibly painful, and there was a fair amount of it. I also felt that Obiwan should have been able to take Jango Fett. Fett had guns and a jet pack, but Obiwan has The Force, so I thought he should be able to defeat him.
And I laughed out loud when Yoda started fighting Dooku. I guess Yoda should be skilled with a lightsaber, but it really just didn't look right the way he jumped around. And if he can jump around like that, why does he need a cane?
All three prequels have plenty of cringe-worthy moments, but for me ROTS had fewer than the others.
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#3395163 - 09/21/1108:29 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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The entire interaction between Padme and Annakin in Episode 2 was cringe-inducing, vapid and it had ZERO on-screen chemistry. It was as flat as Keira Knightley's chest.
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She was only in Phantom Menace.
Lucas is simply one of those people who don't care what others think over his own opinions. In some walks of life that's called principled, in some it's called strong-willed, in others it's just being a dick.
I admit his positions regarding his own works seems at odds with his positions on other films, but hey, everyone has contradictory moments.
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I agree the Anakin/Padme stuff was utterly atrocious in II (and III, there was just less of it).
The only reason I disliked II relatively less, now I come to think of it, was that brief bit of genuine atmosphere on the ocean planet, when Obi Wan was on his own (without Anakin... more entertaining cinema... I suppose it makes sense).
But really I'm clutching at straws trying to find a highlight.
#3395738 - 09/22/1102:13 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
Arthonon
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The Obiwan scenes on Kamino were some of the better scenes, but there were too many things that bugged me to make them really good.
Like when he first gets there, the Kamino-ans assume he is here to check up on their progress, and he plays along, but then immediately asks a question that would almost certainly be a dead give-away - "Did my master tell you who this army was for?"
And then he botches his questioning of Jango making him suspicious and deciding to leave, and then he isn't able to over-power Jango.
Not big deals, but just enough to lower the quality of those scenes for me.
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Well, he's a Jedi, not Sam Spade. It's quite possible that OB1 just wasn't a very good interrogator.
Besides, you have that whole "play to the audience" thing. Play it too smart and you risk alienating some of those young children who won't get it. Again, Lucas wasn't trying to make a smart film, he was making a film for the under-12 crowd.
The Jedi Master
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#3396459 - 09/23/1102:08 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Jedi Master]
Arthonon
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Well, he's a Jedi, not Sam Spade. It's quite possible that OB1 just wasn't a very good interrogator.
Still, I'd like to think he's not an idiot.
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Besides, you have that whole "play to the audience" thing. Play it too smart and you risk alienating some of those young children who won't get it. Again, Lucas wasn't trying to make a smart film, he was making a film for the under-12 crowd.
Right, but I think something that makes a good writer is someone who can provide the info the viewer needs in an understandable way, without having to compromise the storytelling aspect of it. Also, I think it could be argued that the first two films (Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back) established the expectations for the series, and the following films did not meet the expectations set in those first two.
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The picture and sound are noticeably better on the BDs than the DVDs FWIW. If I compare my 2 LD sets, DVD, and now BD sets, you can see a definite progression of video improvement between each.
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#3398857 - 09/27/1101:49 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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Leave it to George Lucas to create a character that is soooooo dull and forgettable that even a great actor like Liam Neeson wasn't able to make him interesting.
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Leave it to George Lucas to create a character that is soooooo dull and forgettable that even a great actor like Liam Neeson wasn't able to make him interesting.
WOW, that says a lot about the character development. I haven't seen the first three installments and I don't have the desire to either. Episodes IV - VI were good enough for me.
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Originally Posted By: wheelsup_cavu
Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Leave it to George Lucas to create a character that is soooooo dull and forgettable that even a great actor like Liam Neeson wasn't able to make him interesting.
WOW, that says a lot about the character development. I haven't seen the first three installments and I don't have the desire to either. Episodes IV - VI were good enough for me.
Wheels
Not watching the prequels was a wise decision on your part IMO.
In a way, Episodes 1-3 have ruined Ep. 4-6 for me, because (among a multitude of other reasons) whenever I see Vader, annoying Jake Lloyd and whiny Hayden Christensen come to mind, which for me ruins the whole character. Below all that evil armor is just a pampered kid with too much teenage angst that needs spanking. Unfortunately no one does, so he develops some kind of borderline personality disorder (seriously; I've read that some psychologist actually diagnosed "Ani" with that). Sigh.
Oh, BTW, why did Obi Wan and Luke bother with getting into lightsaber duels with Vader in the first place? Why not just use the force to fool with the suit's life control interface?
Luke could also have mocked Vader before the duel by saying "Daddy, I truly, deeply love you". Unlike the Honey Badger, Anakin would have given a sh!t.
#3399060 - 09/27/1108:17 PMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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My official stance is while there are some disappointing things with the SW prequels, I still do enjoy them more than a lot of other sci-fi movies that I've seen. However, I think I will skip on the SW bluray set at least for the time being.
You know, i keep asking myself why do i dislike ... nay hate the prequels and the following comes up.
I loved the original and i was a child back then, so ......
Were the originals aimed at a younger audience and is that the reason i love them so much when i was a child. And do i hate the prequels becuase they are DEFINITELY aimed at a younger audience and i have grown up ?
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That depends on the answer to the following question:
Have you grown up?
In many ways, I have not. I'm glad I have not. It means I can play with my daughters and not feel miserable the entire time. Pretty much everyone I know that enjoys talking about all this stuff that is only good "for kids" that doesn't appeal to them anymore because they're "grown up" is a dour, unhappy, nonimaginative lump. I can't understand why someone would want to be like that. Some amount is inevitable, but it seems like some people were so eager to "grow up" they didn't realize they sabotaged their adult personalities.
Be a kid. Have fun. You won't necessarily live longer, but you'll enjoy the life you live more.
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#3399205 - 09/28/1105:23 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: bogusheadbox]
PanzerMeyer
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Originally Posted By: bogusheadbox
Were the originals aimed at a younger audience and is that the reason i love them so much when i was a child. And do i hate the prequels becuase they are DEFINITELY aimed at a younger audience and i have grown up ?
Yes to both questions. Take the dialogue for example. If you really pay attention to it, the dialogue in the original trilogy isn't any more complex than the dialogue in the prequels. While Jar Jar Binks is universally hated, is he really that much different or worse than the ewoks?
Threads like these really do make me think because we get involved discussing and over-analyzing characters and plots from the SW movies that Lucas never intended for audiences to even contemplate when they watch his SW films. Like Jedi has mentioned before, the SW films are meant to be treated and perceived just like the Flash Gordon serials from the 1930's.
#3399311 - 09/28/1109:11 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
Arthonon
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Well, going back to something I said in a previous post, I think the first two movies set the expectations, and while they were simple in many ways, they were focused, and TESB was more complex, giving the impression that later movies might not be so simple. And even if they were simple and aimed at younger audiences, they weren't dumb, and if the dialog wasn't great, it wasn't painful.
The prequels added a dumbness and painful dialog that wasn't in the first two, and was only barely in Return of the Jedi. Jar-Jar Binks, Anakin as a whiny kid, midichlorians, non-sensical events (for example, as pointed out by Red Letter Media, the whole betting scene between Quigon and Watto), a teen Anakin who was clearly out of control but no one noticed, etc. Or maybe Yoda noticed, as he expressed concern from the beginning, but never took any action, which might be worse.
And as the movies unfolded, it seemed to me that Lucas proved again and again that the dark side really was stronger, even though the message he seemed to want to send was the opposite. Everyone except for Anakin lost out to the dark side eventually - Quigon, Padme, Obi-wan, Yoda (although he wasn't killed, he had to go into exile), and Luke would have been killed if it hadn't been for Vader/Anakin switching sides. I suppose that could be the strength of the Force over the dark side, but that doesn't seem very "good," especially considering the death and destruction caused by the empire under the control of the emperor and the dark side because Yoda wasn't able to stop them.
I'm not trying to analyze the force and all that, I'm just talking from a story-telling aspect. If you're going to create characters and situations that people want to watch, I think you need to be consistent in the story-telling and overall continuity, and as each film came out, they seemed to contradict themselves further and further. Again, to me, it's just poor story-telling, and that's especially disappointing considering the promising start the first two movies had. I think if the team that added so much to those movies had been listened to in later movies, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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I think part of that stemmed from Lucas taking his original 9-film concept, then starting in the middle 3, then realizing the fourth may be the only one he could make, so he stole from the 6th to make it, then realizing when he had to make the 5th and 6th that he'd sort of screwed himself over, and continually adjusting and readjusting things to fit. The contradictions arise from when his adjustments ran up against his original ideas for those films and him being unable to properly reconcile them.
In an ideal world, if Lucas had known he'd have a hit and been able to, the original trilogy would've been much different. No Death Star in 4, no death of Ben (instead training Luke in 5 and no Yoda), Wookiees instead of Ewoks in 6 (doing the technologically inferior-beats-superior theme long before Cameron did Aliens, but drawing on the same SE Asia allegory), etc etc etc.
As for the people that worked on the original trilogy, pretty much none of them were there for the prequels aside from Daniels and Baker and Oz doing their characters and Burtt doing sound and editing. Every other person was different, from producers to writers to actors to whatever.
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#3399391 - 09/28/1110:24 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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I remember Lucas saying that the reason he dropped the idea of it being wookies instead of ewoks in ROTJ was that the wookies were already technologically savvy as evidenced by Chewbacca's actions in ANH and ESB. So we would have had a race that was both technologically savvy AND physically superior to the soldiers of the Empire. That wouldn't have made for a very convincing underdog vs. superior enemy scenario.
#3399415 - 09/28/1110:48 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
Arthonon
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The problem is, you never know when Lucas is telling the truth. He has said that he never intended to make 9 movies, but there are references made in official Star Wars merchandising to 9 (one in particular I remember is John Williams referencing it in the notes for the TESB soundtrack album), and it seems unlikely that would go out unless that was the intent at the time.
Plus he always makes it sound like he always had this specific storyline planned out, but the Luke/Lea kiss imply otherwise, and if you read the preface to the original Star Wars novel, which Lucas wrote, the emperor is clearly not much of a threat, so obviously that changed.
And I think everyone was different on the prequels because Lucas wanted it that way, in addition to I think some frustrations some of them had (Gary Kurtz comes to mind).
I think one of the reasons people get so frustrated with the changes to the originals is that, as the prequels came out and didn't meet the expected quality of the first ones, the first movies have been altered to lower them closer to the level of the prequels, so people can't even just ignore the prequels and enjoy the original movies.
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#3399429 - 09/28/1111:05 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
PanzerMeyer
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I'll never forget something David Lynch said during an interview a few years ago when he was in NYC. He was talking about the time when Lucas approached him to direct ROTJ and he decided to decline the offer; "George does what he loves and I do what I love. The difference is that what George loves makes millions of dollars".
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Actually, Alan Dean Foster ghost wrote the SW novelization based on George's script.
There's a painful line in there Obi-wan uses about a duck I remember.
Likewise, the novelization of ROTJ has the Emperor pluck Yoda's name out of Luke's head (instead of the silly "Obi wan trained you well" mantra he and Vader used in the films) but he doesn't know him. He also asks if Yoda still lives and gets from Luke's reaction that he doesn't. The prequels make it obvious the Emperor would NEVER have forgotten Yoda!
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#3402639 - 10/03/1111:03 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Bib4Tuna]
Arthonon
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I didn't realize that Alan Dean Foster ghost wrote the original Star Wars novel, and I was always surprised Lucas wrote a novel. Nevertheless, it's a novel with Lucas' story and his name on it, and I would be surprised if there was much in there of significance to the story that he didn't provide.
And another thought I had was that if Lucas wanted to make these like the old serials, and that may have inspired the dialog and the tweaks to the story and dialog made over time, why would he improve the effects? Those serials were known for their cheesy costumes and effects, so working so hard to improve that seems counter to making them like the serials of old.
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Watching the fan made documentaries, Star Wars Begins / Building Empire and Returning to Jedi, they compile interesting notes and voice interviews with people involved. It's interesting that the Ewok eyes not blinking was mentioned in a 1996 interview, and one designer was saying that when you work on these films to have to let go and consider yourself as working for George.
Clearly there was a lot of things that bugged him and he just can't let go
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George is a visual director. He thinks of what you SEE on the screen. Sound is not him, hence the poor dialogue and lots of outside contributors creating the sounds from music to effects to alien languages.
He simply had a vision of what he wanted SW to look like and unlike most directors that are forced to move on, he has the ability to go back and make it look closer to what he wanted it to look like. It's a lot easier and cheaper than redoing the whole thing!
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#3405625 - 10/07/1109:39 AMRe: SW Blue Ray - Vader says "NOOOOO!!!"
[Re: Scott Elson]
PanzerMeyer
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Originally Posted By: Scott Elson
If he didn't care much about sound why did THX come about?
Elf
I've had to think about a reply to this for a while and I think I'm ready.
From an artistic perspective, Lucas is a visual director meaning that he relies on images more than dialogue to convey his story and to elicit emotion from the audience. Other visual directors would be Ridley Scott and Akira Kurosawa. Some good example of directors who are dialogue driven and NOT visual would be Kevin Smith and Quentin Tarantino. Their films are ALL about the dialogue.
THX was created as a sound design studio to not only provide sound for the SW films but also to provide sound editing/engineering/design services for other films. So of course sound design was important in the SW films from the beginning but it was not the driving force behind Lucas' story-telling. The visuals were.
You may be confusing Skywalker Sound (the original studio where the techniques were created) with the THX certification.
Lucas initial intent was to have consistency between what he produced in his studio and what the audience got in the theater... and since SW was such a moneymaker for cinemas, he skillfully blackmailed theater chains to pay to convert their sound systems or miss the chance to screen the openings of his movies. (they would get to show the movies eventually anyway if they did not convert). They did this significantly for the TPM, though the standard was first used in theaters for ROTJ.
Once the standard was "accepted" it made sense to keep pushing it to other outlets such as consumer home theaters manufacturers.
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I remember seeing my first THX theater around the time Jurassic Park came out. Almost simultaneously DTS appeared, although it never really gained traction. I would say it was the mid 90s before I could be confident that when I went to see a film the sound would be good. Prior to that it was really hit or miss.
The Jedi Master
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The puppet Yoda used in TPM was always lame, I'm glad it got replaced. As for the Krayt Dragon call, that's been messed with in every release. The 97 version was different, the 2004 version was different, and now 2011 again. I'm old school and like the original the most, but it's a personal preference thing anyway.
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