Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#3374132 - 08/24/11 09:56 PM Spad VII Vs Spad XIII  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,939
Scoobe Offline
Senior Member
Scoobe  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,939
I know the engines are different, but what are the visual differences between the two. Looks like the Spad 7 does not have the radiator louvres on the front, but are there any other differences? Also are their visual differences between the 150 and the 180hp models?

Rob

Last edited by Scoobe; 08/25/11 04:17 PM.

Intel Core i7-3770K
GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2000 (PC3 16000)
MSI GTX 960 GTX 4GB
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3374204 - 08/24/11 11:55 PM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,503
Pooch Offline
Hotshot
Pooch  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,503
Orlando, FL
Well, the SPAD7 had one Vickers , as opposed to the 13's two. You're also going to notice a slight difference in the tail design.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#3374310 - 08/25/11 04:35 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
LukeFF Offline
Veteran
LukeFF  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
Redlands, California
Different windshield as well.

#3374362 - 08/25/11 06:32 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,763
Catfish Offline
Member
Catfish  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,763
Where the ocean meets the sky
The SPAD VII was more manoueverable than the XIII or so they say. Also the german pilot Jentsch flew a captured DVII and liked it for its steady, less vibrating fuselage (compared to his Albatros), but he criticized the confusing instruments and the lack of an engine starter. He said they were deadly from above as a surprise attacker, because Entente pilots were able to aim and hit better due to the still, non-vibrating chassis, supposedly coming from the V-arranged Hispano-Suiza (Spanish-swiss made) engine.

Last edited by Catfish; 08/25/11 08:43 AM.
#3374440 - 08/25/11 10:38 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,256
Bandy Offline
Member
Bandy  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,256
Wishing I was in the La Cloche
Is the thread title a typo? SPAD 7 vs. SPAD 12 (get with the Roman numerals!).


If so SPAD 12 had a wacking great 37mm cannon firing through the propeller hub and was loaded by hand in the cockpit. Quite impressive firepower for WWI canvas kite. Not many built.
Quote:

The SPAD S.XII or SPAD 12 was a French single-seat biplane fighter aircraft of the First World War developed from the successful SPAD 7 by Louis Béchereau, chief designer of the Société Pour L'Aviation et ses Dérivés (SPAD).

The SPAD 12 was inspired by the ideas of French flying ace Georges Guynemer, who proposed that a manoeuvrable single-seat aircraft be designed to carry a 37 mm cannon, a weapon which had previously been mounted only in large two-seat aircraft such as the Voisin III. Béchereau took his own SPAD 7 design as the starting point, but the many major and minor changes incorporated into the SPAD 12 made it a quite different aircraft.

The gun chosen for the SPAD 12 was not the old Hotchkiss cannon but a new 37 mm cannon developed by SAMC for which 12 shots were carried, firing through the propellor shaft, necessitating the use of a geared Hispano-Suiza aviation engine to mount the new moteur-canon. The SPAD 12 also carried a single 0.303 inch (7.7 mm) Vickers machine gun mounted on the starboard side of the nose. In order to carry the heavy cannon the airframe was lengthened and the wingspan and wing area increased. The wingtips were rounded rather than squared off and the wings given a slight forward stagger. To accommodate the required geared output propshaft engine, which easily allowed for the hollow propeller shaft for the cannon to fire through, and power the resultingly heavier airframe, 587 kg compared to the 500 kg of the SPAD 7, the 180 bhp Hispano-Suiza 8 direct-drive Ab engine was replaced by the geared 220 bhp model 8Cb, and gave the SPAD XII a clockwise rotating propeller, as seen from a "nose-on" view.

Test flown by Guynemer, the early production models of the SPAD 12 were highly successful after overcoming initial problems with the reduction gear between engine and propeller.[1] Other aces also had success with the new model. However, deliveries were slow, the SPAD 7 and later SPAD 13 having top priority, and even the modest total of 300 aircraft which were ordered were not all completed.[citation needed] Best estimates are only 20 produced. Average pilots found the SPAD 12 a difficult aircraft to master, and the cannon difficult to aim and fire, while manual reloading was difficult. The cockpit filled with fumes upon every firing. Its breech mechanism protruded into the cockpit and prevented the use of a conventional stick to control the aircraft, adding to the difficulties encountered by ordinary pilots. The control setup reverted to a split setup on either side of the pilot, a la Deperdussin.[2]

No units were entirely equipped with SPAD 12s.[citation needed] The unknown number of aircraft produced were issued in small numbers, intended for use only by the most skilled pilots, such as Rene Fonck, Lionel de Marmier, Fernand Henri Chavannes, Henri Hay de Slade, Albert Deullin and François Battesti. They were distributed one or two per squadron.[3] Few were delivered to combat units, 8 being recorded on strength in April and again in October; this may be contrasted with the thousands of SPAD 7s and SPAD 13s in service. Single examples for testing were delivered to the Royal Flying Corps[4] and one to the Aviation Section of the American Expeditionary Force, and reportedly the AEF's 13th Aero Squadron got the aircraft, which was painted red, given the number "0", and primarily flown by the 13th's Charles John Biddle [1], who ended up with a total of seven confirmed victories in World War I.

Six or more are said to have been held by the Red Army.


4x2.66 GHz Xeons, XFX 4870 1 GB, 11 GB DDR2 RAM, Win7 Pro x64, 120 GB OCZ Vertex2 (MLC, Sandforce)
26" VIZIO 1920x1200, Logitech FF 3D Pro, CH pedals, Track IR4
#3374607 - 08/25/11 03:26 PM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,945
Nimits Offline
Hotshot
Nimits  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,945
United States of America
Pretty sure he meant XIII (just left an I out).

Last edited by Nimits; 08/25/11 03:26 PM.
#3374619 - 08/25/11 03:42 PM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 793
PatrickAWilson Offline
Member
PatrickAWilson  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 793
Tx
Despite the outward similarities they were very different. SPAD VII was a good energy fighter for its time but fairly handy too. It could energy fight and, to a reasonable degree, turn fight too. No, it wasn't a Camel, but it wasn't bad either. The smaller engine meant only 1 MG.

The SPAD XIII carried a much larger engine, was faster, 2 MGs, but was almost a pure energy fighter. Roll rate of the XIII was reputed to be very poor for a scout and the thin wings were less than ideal for slow speed manuevering.

So with the VII you had a plane that gave you more options but wasn't the best at any one thing. With the XIII your options were more limited but it was very good at what it did best.

#3374645 - 08/25/11 04:18 PM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Nimits]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,939
Scoobe Offline
Senior Member
Scoobe  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,939
Originally Posted By: Nimits
Pretty sure he meant XIII (just left an I out).


Yup, I corrected it.

Rob


Intel Core i7-3770K
GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2000 (PC3 16000)
MSI GTX 960 GTX 4GB
#3374880 - 08/25/11 09:38 PM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
LukeFF Offline
Veteran
LukeFF  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
Redlands, California
Although it doesn't really have any bearing in-game, the XIII was also very mechanically unreliable. On some days in the American squadrons, availability could be as low as 10%. As an example:



18 aircraft out of 25 out of action! eek

#3375061 - 08/26/11 03:07 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: LukeFF]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 451
RedVonHammer Offline
Member
RedVonHammer  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 451
Norway
Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Although it doesn't really have any bearing in-game, the XIII was also very mechanically unreliable. On some days in the American squadrons, availability could be as low as 10%. As an example:


18 aircraft out of 25 out of action! eek



The early SVII`s werent too impressive in that perspective either!!

#3375231 - 08/26/11 10:07 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: LukeFF]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,256
Bandy Offline
Member
Bandy  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,256
Wishing I was in the La Cloche
Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Although it doesn't really have any bearing in-game, the XIII was also very mechanically unreliable. On some days in the American squadrons, availability could be as low as 10%. As an example:
...
18 aircraft out of 25 out of action! eek

While that is a VERY neat document (source is?), I think you may be missing the broader context.

Yes, at the time of the report, 1700 hours 18 out of 25 SPAD XIII aircraft needed some sort of service, but by my count you have to compare the out-of-action total at 15 because "Not Returned", "...new set of wings", "ready for test flight" could be battle damage, we just do not know what happened. Eight out of 15 involved propeller, gas tank, or guns related issues which are subsystems not speaking directly to SPAD reliability (OK, I'm waffling on the 3 cases of gun issues...). That leaves seven out of 15 with distinct motor-related issues, and at least some of those are likely battle damage as well, bullet in the block...

I think these squadron out-of-service numbers are probably not unusual (granted, possibly on the high side) for any aircraft at the end of a day of action (1700). The yanks entered late and were a gung-ho bunch after all. ready The mechanics will work into the night (as they often did) to repair the majority for the next day. Just my interpretation.

Last edited by Bandy; 08/26/11 10:10 AM.

4x2.66 GHz Xeons, XFX 4870 1 GB, 11 GB DDR2 RAM, Win7 Pro x64, 120 GB OCZ Vertex2 (MLC, Sandforce)
26" VIZIO 1920x1200, Logitech FF 3D Pro, CH pedals, Track IR4
#3375535 - 08/26/11 05:11 PM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,763
Catfish Offline
Member
Catfish  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,763
Where the ocean meets the sky
Hello,
the SPAD XIIIs were (in)famous for their mechanical breakdowns (b.t.w. like the SE5s), especially the engine gave lots of trouble. First the crankshaft would just break (most probably due to harmonic vibrations and developing microcracks which suddenly lead to "impressing" results) usually behind the first cylinder, as well the gearboxes used in the SPAD XIII and SE5 had a lot of teething problems due to the alloys of the inner cogwheels used back then.
When the first SE5s arrived at 56th squadron the pilots were less than enthused, the engine would overheat all the time and it was impossible to fly it without boiling cooling water leading to all kinds of engine problems. As one pilot said the SE5s steamed and poured coolant after landing that it was impossible to get near it for at least 15 minutes. It were the pilots who fixed most of the problems, with self-made field mods; the most important being to throw out all the stuff that was not really needed, making it lighter and putting less load on the engine.

The Entente was not the only nation with problems though, german 8-cylinder engines developed crankshaft breaks all the time, as well as the Zeppelin gearboxes often broke, either due to teething problems or the housing just cracked. German alloys were better at the time or so they say, but still not up to the job.

Last edited by Catfish; 08/26/11 05:13 PM.
#3375726 - 08/26/11 09:41 PM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Bandy]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
LukeFF Offline
Veteran
LukeFF  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
Redlands, California
Originally Posted By: Bandy
While that is a VERY neat document (source is?), I think you may be missing the broader context.


The documents come from Fold3.com (I don't have the exact address at the moment, since I'm not on my home computer).

And yes, while that report was generated in the evening hours, it is not that different from the morning reports and daily flight logs. Typically, in the reports I've read so far, Spad 13 serviceability in American unit was generally low throughout August and September 1918 and became better (in general) as October wore on.

That said, on some of the evening reports, they note how many aircraft would be available the following morning, and it isn't uncommon to find that number to be very low. So, while I understand what you're saying, it also remains true that serviceability rates for the Spad 13 were generally very poor at worst and mediocre at best. Here's an example: take a look at the last document on this page, dated 30 October 1918:

93rd Aero Squadron Reports

At 1700 hours, the unit reported 5 planes out of 25 in commission. 12 hours later, that number was expected to creep up to 9 out of 25. 36% availability rate is a sucky number, no matter what way one cuts it.

#3375843 - 08/27/11 12:51 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: LukeFF]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 108
julian265 Offline
Member
julian265  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 108
Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Originally Posted By: Bandy
While that is a VERY neat document (source is?), I think you may be missing the broader context.


The documents come from Fold3.com (I don't have the exact address at the moment, since I'm not on my home computer).

And yes, while that report was generated in the evening hours, it is not that different from the morning reports and daily flight logs. Typically, in the reports I've read so far, Spad 13 serviceability in American unit was generally low throughout August and September 1918 and became better (in general) as October wore on.

That said, on some of the evening reports, they note how many aircraft would be available the following morning, and it isn't uncommon to find that number to be very low. So, while I understand what you're saying, it also remains true that serviceability rates for the Spad 13 were generally very poor at worst and mediocre at best. Here's an example: take a look at the last document on this page, dated 30 October 1918:

93rd Aero Squadron Reports

At 1700 hours, the unit reported 5 planes out of 25 in commission. 12 hours later, that number was expected to creep up to 9 out of 25. 36% availability rate is a sucky number, no matter what way one cuts it.


I don't have any opinion on the reliability of the 13... But it seems to me, that without breaking down the work into damage repair and "normal" repair categories, any conclusion about reliability based on these documents requires a few too many assumptions to make.

#3375966 - 08/27/11 04:44 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: julian265]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
LukeFF Offline
Veteran
LukeFF  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
Redlands, California
Originally Posted By: julian265
But it seems to me, that without breaking down the work into damage repair and "normal" repair categories, any conclusion about reliability based on these documents requires a few too many assumptions to make.


Not when you look at the reasons for why the aircraft were out of action. And trust me, I've looked at a LOT of daily aircraft status reports that attest to the mechanical unreliability of the Spad 13.

#3376045 - 08/27/11 07:45 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: LukeFF]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 587
MIG77 Offline
Member
MIG77  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 587
Finland
Originally Posted By: LukeFF

Not when you look at the reasons for why the aircraft were out of action. And trust me, I've looked at a LOT of daily aircraft status reports that attest to the mechanical unreliability of the Spad 13.


Yep, that is true. Nevertheless as RoF dont model reliability, point is kind of moot from RoF perspective.


You can get used to everything, but icicle in the a**. It melts before you get used to it.
#3376654 - 08/28/11 07:19 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Scoobe]  
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,092
HotTom Offline
Member
HotTom  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,092
Phoenix, AZ, USA


Exceptional engineering...and a large hammer to make it fit!
#3376987 - 08/28/11 10:22 PM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: LukeFF]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,945
Nimits Offline
Hotshot
Nimits  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,945
United States of America
Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Originally Posted By: julian265
But it seems to me, that without breaking down the work into damage repair and "normal" repair categories, any conclusion about reliability based on these documents requires a few too many assumptions to make.


Not when you look at the reasons for why the aircraft were out of action. And trust me, I've looked at a LOT of daily aircraft status reports that attest to the mechanical unreliability of the Spad 13.


Was that raw mechanical unreliability, or US ground crews having to work with an unfamiliar aircraft?

#3377025 - 08/29/11 12:01 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Nimits]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,256
Bandy Offline
Member
Bandy  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,256
Wishing I was in the La Cloche
Originally Posted By: Nimits
Was that raw mechanical unreliability, or US ground crews having to work with an unfamiliar aircraft?

AND in Systeme Internationale (metric)! WinkNGrin

@ LukeFF, I don't disagree with your conclusion of the SPAD being unreliable (just being critical of the perspective on the evidence), and am interested that you've researched more than just a few of these reports. Nice find, thanks for sharing.

Last edited by Bandy; 08/29/11 12:09 AM.

4x2.66 GHz Xeons, XFX 4870 1 GB, 11 GB DDR2 RAM, Win7 Pro x64, 120 GB OCZ Vertex2 (MLC, Sandforce)
26" VIZIO 1920x1200, Logitech FF 3D Pro, CH pedals, Track IR4
#3377079 - 08/29/11 01:45 AM Re: Spad VII Vs Spad XII [Re: Bandy]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
LukeFF Offline
Veteran
LukeFF  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,234
Redlands, California
Originally Posted By: Bandy
LukeFF, I don't disagree with your conclusion of the SPAD being unreliable (just being critical of the perspective on the evidence), and am interested that you've researched more than just a few of these reports. Nice find, thanks for sharing.


No problem. smile All of what I am doing has something to do with ROF's career mode. wink

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RacerGT, Wklink 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0