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#3374422 - 08/25/11 09:58 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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RocketDog Offline
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Nice article. I agree with Tom's analysis 100%.


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#3374441 - 08/25/11 10:39 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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Mastiff Offline
"just do it"
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EL Centro, Cailfornia
It's trend I suspect Ubisoft is trying to bomb a release on purpose;
To get out of PC gaming all together. Or kill PC gaming, because of
The monies they lost to piracy. Ubisoft has been making alot of bonehead
Decisions as of late.


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#3374551 - 08/25/11 02:18 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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Cold_Gambler Offline
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Fair article. It really does read as a comedy of errors. Every mis-step resulted in the exact opposite of what a proper release should do.

Instead of stoking anticipation and interest the pre-US release events fostered negativity, doubt and speculation about what was and could be wrong with the simulation.

I quite agree with the observation that Eagle Dynamics took the right approach by making the beta available upon pre-order.

I still have a measure of confidence that CloD will be rescued à la Rise of Flight; but so far it's hard not to feel disappointed.


looks very modernishy-phoney-windows eighty-tabletty like

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#3374558 - 08/25/11 02:31 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: Mastiff]  
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2005AD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mastiff
It's trend I suspect Ubisoft is trying to bomb a release on purpose;
To get out of PC gaming all together. Or kill PC gaming, because of
The monies they lost to piracy. Ubisoft has been making alot of bonehead
Decisions as of late.


I am a fan of the cock-up before conspiracy theory. Or to put it another way, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". The world is full of conspiracy theories that just don't make sense, yours is one of them smile

You need to understand that Ubisoft and 1C both are both profit driven organisations. Why would they deliberately sabotage their own profit potential? It would be far simpler to just not get involved in the first place.

#3374617 - 08/25/11 03:41 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: 2005AD]  
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BKHZ_Furbs Offline
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Originally Posted By: 2005AD
Originally Posted By: Mastiff
It's trend I suspect Ubisoft is trying to bomb a release on purpose;
To get out of PC gaming all together. Or kill PC gaming, because of
The monies they lost to piracy. Ubisoft has been making alot of bonehead
Decisions as of late.


I am a fan of the cock-up before conspiracy theory. Or to put it another way, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". The world is full of conspiracy theories that just don't make sense, yours is one of them smile

You need to understand that Ubisoft and 1C both are both profit driven organisations. Why would they deliberately sabotage their own profit potential? It would be far simpler to just not get involved in the first place.


Agreed, which makes the mistakes and cock ups even more hard to understand. I mean they should know what they are doing right?

#3374630 - 08/25/11 03:58 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: Mastiff]  
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Gambit21 Offline
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Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted By: Mastiff
It's trend I suspect Ubisoft is trying to bomb a release on purpose;
To get out of PC gaming all together. Or kill PC gaming,


Eh...no

#3374640 - 08/25/11 04:14 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: 2005AD]  
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BigC208 Offline
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Charlotte NC USA
Balanced article and in hindsight pretty unbelievable if you see it displayed like Tom did.

We got flimflammed and bamboozled! Well, at least the Russians did. After the game was released in Russia
we all knew if was unfinished and full of bugs. I got the Russian version anyway just to see how porked it was.
Unplayable, as expected. From then on I saw the whole thing as a paid Beta. Bought the US version two weeks
ago and I can play the game for about 15 minutes before it crashes. I'm still happy with it. It looks better
than anything I've ever seen before in a WWII simulation. Il2 has now become a bit dated. They're working
on fixing the problems and I keep my fingers crossed. If it all goes to hell I would be more dissapointed in
the loss of the potential of a new game series than the loss of the $43 I have vested in the game so far.

The Russians got fooled,they pretty much bought the game unseen. The rest of the world knew what it was getting
into. So, lets all hang in there and give them a chance to fix it before we put anyone on a train to the Gulag
or in front of a firing squad. It worked with Rise of Flight. That game went from unplayable, on my 4 year old
computer, to a whole lot of fun even though I'm not a rabbid WWI fan.

Only thing that still fathoms me, in light of the IL2 name continiuation. Why did they change the qmb so drastically?
Il2's qmb was almost perfect. What they have now is not intuitive at all. Hope they change that. If the series expands
and get's more theaters and aircraft, the current qmb will just not do.


5930k@4.5ghz, 32gb ram, gtx1080ti, Samsung 55 inch 4k, Warthog Hotas, MFG Crosswind, VKB Black Mamba, VKB Gunfighter MCE Ultimate, Reverb G2.
#3374860 - 08/25/11 09:16 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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Gambit21 Offline
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Pacific Northwest
I purchased the boxed version a week ago, but holding off on installing until the next update is
released. I want my first impression to be as favorable as possible, and I've already waited this long.

#3374972 - 08/26/11 12:17 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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kilosierra Offline
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The very north of Germany
Hi Tom,

all in all, I can agree with your article. However, some critics:

1. The Il-2 Demo was great. I loved the spinning P-39 (which we all know, was as for other A/C later ironed out due to whiney protests). However, at the known state od CoD and the obvious pressure to create cash-flow, a demo would have been suicide. I write this as the boss of the accounting system of a company, not as as a gamer. A demo wouldn`t have made ANY sense.

2. Being here on SimHQ for more than 10 years (combatsim refugee) and "knowing" many of the members here since Il-2 days, I never understood why many folks thought, the US release would be any different from the rest of the world. We had, at least in the West, always the same game. That said, I didn`t understand the delay either. Only explanation I have, they didn`t want to release the completely borked Euro version in the US and had to produce new DVDs with the patched version.

3. It seems that the EURO version was available all the time short time after EURO release via one US based flight sim shop. You could have joined our struggle, if you really wanted biggrin

4. We all know, the past is always better. Being a calm guy, I don`t recall the flaws the original Il-2 had. If we`d search simhqs archives, we for sure will find heated flamewars abbout what Oleg did wrong or right

5. I think, when Il-2 came out, sims, and especially WWII sims, were already niche products. IIRC we had Rowans BoB ( which brought me to SimHQ) and CFS3. I liked BoB, but when I got the Il-2 demo, I joined immediatly one online-squad and never looked back. So, IMO, Il-2 was part of a economically down niche, and was the revival of this niche. Microprose, Dynamix and Lucasarts, all the old heros, already had left the building at that time.

Last edited by kilosierra; 08/26/11 12:23 AM.

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#3375176 - 08/26/11 07:00 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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klem Offline
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UK
I can't disagree with anything Tom has said but frankly its old news. And just as frankly, repeating the old news doesn't help the future of a venture that 1C are trying to put right.

Over at the 1C forums we are looking forward to the next patches and yes, it may take several more months to get it right, but I hope Tom and the other reviewers that have understandably given this game a rough ride, will give it a fair, positive and loud review if 1C manage to get the game properly on track. It isn't the first game to start out badly and recover. IL-2 Sturmovik was reputedly like this originally although apparently not as bad. Having said that I am able to fly Cliffs of Dover without any problems. There are all the faults that Tom has pointed out but it does actually work within its current limitations and even with them its on-line popularity has grown since the USA release.

So, watch that 1C space.

klem


klem
#3375180 - 08/26/11 07:07 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Sep 2007
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CA_Stary Offline
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Poland
@Kilosierra: WW2 sims were at peak when IL2 came out -Fighter Squadron, CFS, CFS2, EAW, Nations, BoB, Jane's WW2F, Janes's Attack Squadron all were released in less than 3-3,5 years prior to demo IIRC, the market was flooded with them

#3375220 - 08/26/11 09:32 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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bogusheadbox Offline
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One major dislike i had to this review was the <stereo-type button on> typical "look at me, i am american didn't you know" flavour thrown in.

Yep, you may be american. You may have gotten release a long time after the europeans.... But if anything, that should have been a bloody big thank you.

You heard the whining, you saw the posts.... At least you were warned of the state it was in. We europeans weren't.

But the reviewer missed out something VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT.


I agree with the majority of the post and as a seasoned IL2 follower from the initial boxed version of IL2 through all its incarnations until 1946 - i was eagerly awaiting CoD.

But me, unlike the reviewer saw the pit falls and didn't purchase it.

So the reviewer blames UBI 1c for a buggy release....

Who is really at fault.???
I will tell you who is at the baseline of such rubbish being released...

Its us... the public. For ages now we have been purchasing buggy games, not kicking up a storm about it. The reviewer himself said that he knew of all the bad reports but still told the publishers that its ok to release such crap by purchashing a foreign version of the game.

Until we the public stop buying crap, we will still be fed crap at our table....



So to surmise.... The reviewer should have pointed one nasty finger at himself as well as at others as depicted in his review.

Last edited by bogusheadbox; 08/26/11 09:34 AM.

Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#3375254 - 08/26/11 11:56 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Space Coast, USA
Ah, the old "point a finger at me and you're pointing 3 at yourself" deal?

After what they've done to the Clancy series of games, I don't really have much faith in Ubi anymore. Their problem has never been recognizing a good game, it's how they act with the follow-ons to those successful games that is their weakness...they seem to never know the right way.



The Jedi Master


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#3375280 - 08/26/11 12:36 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: Jedi Master]  
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bogusheadbox Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Ah, the old "point a finger at me and you're pointing 3 at yourself" deal?



Not sure what you mean by the reply.

But we are to blame for the way publishers release games. We are so keen to have the latest on day one of release before everyone else that people pre-order, queue up for hours to get a game not knowing what its like.

Ubi is synonomous with rushed and unfinished releases.

Lets take the silent hunter series.

Silent hunter 2 was a great game.
Silent hunter 3 was a visual masterpiece at its time. But had many many bugs, and loads of missing features. Even after the patches, it took 3rd party modders and years of time to get something better and more stable.

I stopped bying silent hunter there as i felt i was burnt by version 3.

But what happens next, silent hunter 4, Yeah looks great but buggy and missing loads of features. Ohhh guess what, silent hunter 5, loads of bugs and missing features.

Where is the problem. A load of die hard sub sim fans keep buying the product pre-release or on day one even though they #%&*$# about the state the previous version was released in.

Where is the logic in that. All that tells the production company (in this case ubi) is that its ok to release crap becuase us the stupid public will buy it anyway and then bend over and cop it hard.

So... if we can show some adult behaviour and not impulse buy .... then production houses will start to learn very quickly...


Simple really.... But my faith in people falls short in this department.

So again i re-itterate.. I have no idea why the reviewer purchased the product without a demo knowing all the bad publicity that was around. He only fueled the pockets of the company and wore a hole in his trousers were they repayed in kind whilst bent over a desk.

Last edited by bogusheadbox; 08/26/11 12:39 PM.

Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#3375779 - 08/26/11 11:03 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Sep 2000
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citizen guod Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Some comments about comments.

I bought the North America version [sic] an hour after it was released at Best Buy so I could run back to the house and report what version, DRM, install methodology, and other information that had not been communicated. Even though it was believed that Steam was required for all versions, it was not confirmed, AFAIK, until I started-up the install and it could actually be confirmed. Again, it said TAGES on the package, but not any reference of it requiring Steam. That lack of communication -- and other basic information expected from the publisher were sorely lacking. Hopefully by advising what is included in the NA release, and what version it is, since it was absent for pre-purchase, allowed the buyer to know what to expect, and what not to expect. We were supposed to get some review copies of the NA release, but when that didn't happen, we purchased it.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3345521/In_hand_Cliffs_of_Dover_North_.html
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3347993/1.html

What TC did was not a review, but a commentary. Old news? Probably so, for a couple of different reasons, but I would still argue compiling the events leading up to the NA release has value for those who haven't followed the story blow-by-blow.

Same as SimHQ has done with Rise of Flight, DCS, and other titles, we will report on CloD's evolution.


Wisdom is knowing what's enough
#3375781 - 08/26/11 11:06 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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wheelsup_cavu Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Corona, California
I was in Frys Electronics yesterday and I saw Cliffs of Dover on the Shelf. There is still no mention of Steam being required but the Tages DRM warning is still on the box. I didn't see a version number either.


Wheels


Cheers wave
Wheelsup_cavu

Mission4Today (Campaigns, Missions, and Skins for IL-2)
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#3375976 - 08/27/11 05:08 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: wheelsup_cavu]  
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rootango Offline
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rootango  Offline
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everywhere
its good to see SimHQ reviewers being a bit more critical again, and not just talking up anything that has a commercial benefit or gain (which never had been the case in SimHQ's early years, but since their mishandling of the RoF storm of negative feedback it seemed to have become the new "management style")

regarding the CoD recent points, most are well balanced and (regretfully) accurate. it does overlook 2 important points however:

1) in recent months it has become clear that Oleg for the last few years has not been involved in hands-on managing the project himself anymore, and had handed most of the project management to luthier who clearly wasnt up to the task (/me puts on flame proof suit in anticipation of luthiers usual tirade of insults directed at anybody who raises something negative about him/il2). its maybe not "nice" to put it that bluntly, but what else can be said about it ? luthier might have many good qualities in some of the other work he did in/for il2, and might be a close personal friend of oleg, but in managing a project like this he was clearly wayout of his depth. if oleg had stayed hands on and managed it himself on an ongoing basis this bungled disastrous release NEVER would have happened.

some blame does have to be directed at oleg himself however, and mostly in the procrastination department. it was initially a good decision to not just release CoD as an advance version of the il2 game engine, but from that decision point onwards many years of procrastination went by with the new gfx engine. their modular game design is innovative and has its good sides, but if the gfx engine itself is seriously flawed the whole project falls over.

2) aside from those glaring issues (which not many here seem to articulate), ultimately the blame lies with ubi for forcing a fixed release date on a project they must have understood was unfinished and buggy (or information might have been deliberately been withheld from them by luthier/oleg so they didnt know exactly how bad things were). oleg himself referred to his frustration with ubi's uncompromising forced release date in some of the youtube discussions shortly after the russian release, and voiced his frustration and disgust on ubi's stance. sadly there is further blame for luthier in this again, because as the project manager he would (or should) have know in what terrible state the end product was when ubi put its foot down on a release date (with the risk of ubi cutting off the money flow, and issues of contractual obligations)

the main issue they need to fix IMMEDIATELY in order for some hope of salvation of its long term survival:
- a major gfx engine overhaul/replacement
- fully working multi core cpu use
- online multiplayer fix
- a working truely dynamic campaign engine
- flightmodel bug fixing and plane performance tuning

personally the only hope i see is for oleg to come back and manage this project himself, there really isnt another solution




Be advised, we got zips in the wire
#3376003 - 08/27/11 06:09 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: rootango]  
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777 Studios - Jason Offline
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777 Studios - Jason  Offline
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Southern California or Moscow
Originally Posted By: rootango
its good to see SimHQ reviewers being a bit more critical again, and not just talking up anything that has a commercial benefit or gain (which never had been the case in SimHQ's early years, but since their mishandling of the RoF storm of negative feedback it seemed to have become the new "management style")

regarding the CoD recent points, most are well balanced and (regretfully) accurate. it does overlook 2 important points however:

1) in recent months it has become clear that Oleg for the last few years has not been involved in hands-on managing the project himself anymore, and had handed most of the project management to luthier who clearly wasnt up to the task (/me puts on flame proof suit in anticipation of luthiers usual tirade of insults directed at anybody who raises something negative about him/il2). its maybe not "nice" to put it that bluntly, but what else can be said about it ? luthier might have many good qualities in some of the other work he did in/for il2, and might be a close personal friend of oleg, but in managing a project like this he was clearly wayout of his depth. if oleg had stayed hands on and managed it himself on an ongoing basis this bungled disastrous release NEVER would have happened.

some blame does have to be directed at oleg himself however, and mostly in the procrastination department. it was initially a good decision to not just release CoD as an advance version of the il2 game engine, but from that decision point onwards many years of procrastination went by with the new gfx engine. their modular game design is innovative and has its good sides, but if the gfx engine itself is seriously flawed the whole project falls over.

2) aside from those glaring issues (which not many here seem to articulate), ultimately the blame lies with ubi for forcing a fixed release date on a project they must have understood was unfinished and buggy (or information might have been deliberately been withheld from them by luthier/oleg so they didnt know exactly how bad things were). oleg himself referred to his frustration with ubi's uncompromising forced release date in some of the youtube discussions shortly after the russian release, and voiced his frustration and disgust on ubi's stance. sadly there is further blame for luthier in this again, because as the project manager he would (or should) have know in what terrible state the end product was when ubi put its foot down on a release date (with the risk of ubi cutting off the money flow, and issues of contractual obligations)

the main issue they need to fix IMMEDIATELY in order for some hope of salvation of its long term survival:
- a major gfx engine overhaul/replacement
- fully working multi core cpu use
- online multiplayer fix
- a working truely dynamic campaign engine
- flightmodel bug fixing and plane performance tuning

personally the only hope i see is for oleg to come back and manage this project himself, there really isnt another solution




I'm sorry, but I need to say something because your comments are not correct.

1.) Luthier is a long-time friend of mine and you are smearing him with no proof or knowledge of what really happened that caused the less than stellar release of CLOD. Oleg didn't hand Luthier anything. Luthier was asked by 1C to try to finish the project after Oleg was, depending who you talk to, relieved of duty by 1C or he quit 1C. You make the call. Luthier is making the best of a bad situation and he is a good guy and from what I can tell a good manager. My point is you can't blame him for the release or bad decisions that were forced upon him by others. He was given 12 months to correct 6 years of bad decisions made by others. A good analogy is blaming me for every decision made regarding ROF before my company took over. Coming from someone who had to take over a not so great situation I know what he is going through.

2.) Again, you see to blame Ubi for all this. Why don't you ask 1C if $8 million and 7 years was enough time and money for a team to eventually be held accountable for their work and produce a product? Ubi is not quite the monster they are being portrayed as. Again, see my comments about Oleg's departure. Only Duke Nukem' can have a never ending dev cycle and hell even that got released eventually. Bringing Oleg back isn't going to solve anything. 1C loves when you blame Ubi. 1C was the day to day manager and owners of IL-2 franchise, not to the mention the primary funding source so why aren't they held accountable? Some of you hold Oleg and 1C up like some sort of gods and people who can do no wrong which is foolish.

I'm not going to say anymore, but what you've said about Luthier isn't fair to him. There is no need to be an Oleg or 1C apologist.

Jason

Last edited by 777 Studios - Jason; 08/28/11 01:54 AM.
#3376040 - 08/27/11 07:26 AM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
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csThor Offline
Senior Member
csThor  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,669
Germany
There is obviously a lot that went FUBAR during CloD development and not much is to blame on Ilya - so far I agree with Jason. But:

When Oleg was still there external input was valued and communication - even the tiniest bit of it - was ensured. I, personally, spent over two years researching and creating the german unit list and their emblems and markings and I was told the Maddox Games coding gurs were both pleased at the load of information and dismayed (since it meant more work for them biggrin ). But since Oleg departed there is a silence far more complete than in space, in fact there's more light coming out of a black hole than info coming from Maddox Games. I don't know what the issue is - I was given an internal document by Ilya shortly after release to fix a number of minor issues with the german unit list and the emblems and markings, but despite me sending the docs and links five times from my mail account and trying to get it across via three different people there has not been the slightest indication Maddox Games has received them. And after so much time (I sent it in April) I have trouble believing that it never arrived - I am actually beginning to think Ilya does not care about external input. Other people have reported the same, some even complained about a new somewhat contemptous attitude towards externals. Jason - I know you're good friends with Ilya, but I have to say that during the last 3 months he has managed to alienate a number of people who spent considerable time (and in cases considerable money) to produce content for CloD and who are now suddenly in the dark whether all that effort was wasted or not.

Jason, if you really have a solid friendship with Ilya I really ask you to tell him what is brewing in the community. A lot of people who were quite prepared to cut MG a lot of slack are pretty fed up and angry right now. And I am one of them.


Intel i7 960 @ 3.2 GHz - ASUS Rampage III Gene Republic of Gamers - 6GB RAM OCZ CL7 XTC Platinum PC3-12800 - ZOTAC GeForce GTX 480 - 64GB Crucial RealSSD C300 SATA II - 1TB Western Digital WD1002FAEX SATA II - Creative Soundblaster Xi-Fi Titanium - Windows 7 Professional 64bit
#3376130 - 08/27/11 02:51 PM Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Jan 2001
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piper Offline
Veteran
piper  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,549
Raleigh,NC
Thanks for the insight Jason.

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Dickey Betts was 80
by Rick_Rawlings. 04/19/24 01:11 AM
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by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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by NoFlyBoy. 04/12/24 01:41 PM
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