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#3357320 - 08/02/11 11:10 AM Red Tails, not bad at all?  
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#3358397 - 08/03/11 07:30 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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Originally Posted By: Staniol


That looks awesome! I can't wait. The dogfighting scenes are going to rock. The best part is, it's a true story. The story of the Tuskegee Airmen. The all-black squadron, in a racially segregated U.S. military, once permitted to fight, they were the ONLY American squadron that never lost a single bomber. Not one.

Here is an interesting History Channel re-creation of the Red Tails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSWEO-ratKM&feature=related

Last edited by Plainsman; 08/03/11 08:32 PM.

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#3358645 - 08/04/11 04:00 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Plainsman]  
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Quote:
once permitted to fight, they were the ONLY American squadron that never lost a single bomber. Not one.


Quote:

"On 24 March 1945, during the war, the Chicago Defender said that no bomber escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen had ever been lost to enemy fire, under the headline: "332nd Flies Its 200th Mission Without Loss";[49] the article was based on information supplied by the 15th Air Force.[50][51]

This statement was repeated for many years, and not challenged because of the esteem of the Tuskegee Airmen, however, Air Force records and eyewitness accounts later showed that at least 25 bombers were lost to enemy fire.[52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen

Quote:

Another report on Sept. 12, 1944, says: Ten Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open.

http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=17731

Sokol1




Last edited by Sokol1; 08/04/11 04:13 AM.
#3359317 - 08/04/11 11:28 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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I don't know how true that is. It could even be that back in 1944 with all the racism in the armed forces and society that they didn't want the Negro squadron to have a better record than the others.


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#3359350 - 08/05/11 12:20 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Plainsman]  
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Originally Posted By: Plainsman
I don't know how true that is. It could even be that back in 1944 with all the racism in the armed forces and society that they didn't want the Negro squadron to have a better record than the others.


That doesn't really make sense. For years I have also heard there were no loses. (movies have told me so so it must be true) lol

But thinking about it zero loses is just not realistic. But 25 is still a great record.

#3359463 - 08/05/11 03:22 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Falstar]  
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Originally Posted By: Falstar
Originally Posted By: Plainsman
I don't know how true that is. It could even be that back in 1944 with all the racism in the armed forces and society that they didn't want the Negro squadron to have a better record than the others.


That doesn't really make sense. For years I have also heard there were no loses. (movies have told me so so it must be true) lol

But thinking about it zero loses is just not realistic. But 25 is still a great record.


Whether they never lost a bomber or not is not the main issue for me. When you live in a society (America) during a time (1940s) when nearly every white person in authority believed in the innate inferiority of the Negro, which they used as justification for blatant segregation and discrimination, it is not far-fetched at all to think those same racially prejudiced people would want to do whatever they could to avoid being proved complete imbeciles for believing in racial inferiority in the first place. Making sure the Red Tails did not appear to be "that much better than white fighter pilots" by soiling their record with fictious bomber losses was but one way to save face. I'm not saying that definitely was the case. I don't really know. But I don't know that 25 bomber losses is the truth either. "Authorities" were doing a lot of lying back then, as they do now. Remember the lies the U.S. military spread about Pat Tillman? That he dies fighting the enemy, when he was really killed by another American. Remember the lies U.S. military authorities told about that female soldier, Jessica Lynch? That she heroically fought off the Iraqis to her last bullet, when she herself later admitted none of it was true, that the "generals" made it up.

I can easily see that in 1944 in a segregated military, that prejudiced "generals" who didn't want the black pilots to get any kind of glory whatsover, would lie about the Red Tails' record. In fact, that was PROBABLY the case. If the military lies now (Tillman, Lynch, etc.), with the level of racial prejudice back then, it is easy to see them lying. I'm not saying they did, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.

Anyway, whether the Tuskegee Airmen, aka "Red Tails", lost zero bombers or only 25, it's indisputable that they were heroes, and the preview clip from the upcoming movie looks absolutely awesome. I can't wait to see the film. smile

Last edited by Plainsman; 08/05/11 03:30 AM.

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#3381250 - 09/03/11 08:55 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Plainsman]  
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Originally Posted By: Plainsman
...


You sound like someone that was just told there is no Santa Claus.

Last edited by FozzyBear; 09/03/11 08:56 AM.
#3381562 - 09/03/11 07:30 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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I don't care how good a fighter outfit is, the fighter escorts are not a brick wall. Some enemy airplanes will always get through. The 8th Air Forces hottest units, the 4th and the 56th lost bombers they were guarding. It's rediculous to think that "no losses" story could have been true.
The sky is a huge place. You don't even realize how huge until you get up into an airplane. You can't guard it all. A certain number of losses would be considered "acceptable" because this was understood. If an entire group was lost...well, you might have some explaining to do.
The truth of what they accomplished is good enough, I think.
It's interesting, though, that the 332nd had no aces. I've read that there was a reason for that. When a pilot was approaching that coveted ace status, he was pulled from combat. I'm sure some did shoot down at least five Germn airplanes, but then , didn't report it, knowing that they would be sent home. It's amazing that the AAF would pull that kind of crap, and then overcompensate by creating the "never lost a bomber" myth.
To prevent them from becoming aces , so they wouldn't be seen as better than white pilots, and then tell the world that they were so good that not a single enemy plane ever got past them , just makes no sense at all.


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#3396630 - 09/24/11 01:25 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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I know personally one Tuskegee airman. He's really up in years, but even he disputes the claim of no bombers lost to fighters. Legend has it, but that may be all it is. What's important to me is that they got the chance to contribute and fight for their country like any other American. To put it in perspective, this airman is still angry that he had to ride in the back of the troop train while German prisoners rode up front. That was America then. Same for Patton's 761st tanker (Patton's Panthers). Just a blip in history (his story).
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#3413692 - 10/19/11 01:53 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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O.K. right off hand what I didn't like in the trailer.The escorted B-17's of the 5th bomb wing 15th AF had different markings (Olive Drab painted B-17's of the 381st BG based in England with the 8th AF were shown in the trailer).5th Bomb Wing B-17's have Y's painted on their vertical stabilizer (tail) and sometimes even on their horizontal stabilizers too.Each group in the 5th BW had a variation of the Y to tell them apart.
Also at that point in time summer (July) 1944 till the end of the war in 1945 most of the B-17's of the 5th BW were silver unpainted ships (other than markings,nose-tail art) rather than the earlier Olive Drab painted ships however the fewer OD painted B-17's still flew in groups,squadrons etc until they were either lost (shot down) or so battle damaged that they were used for parts at the Foggian Italy air bases.

Someone else mentioned that the Bf-109's in the trailer had the wrong markings too.
The CGI looked a little to cheesy for me but the wrong markings in the rendered CGI was a big turn off for me although I probably will still see the upcoming film even with the bad (but could have been easy to fix ) mistakes in it.

#3413722 - 10/19/11 02:59 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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I don't think the incorrect markings take away the general message of the file though, or take away from the story...


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#3420091 - 10/28/11 02:49 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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The fact is that they were there on the front lines trying their best... that's all that can be asked of any soldier.
Others can dispute kill claims or how good they were but were those armchair generals up there chasing fighters and dodging bullets?

BTW - the film looks great. Can't wait to see it.

#3428271 - 11/07/11 03:56 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: WynnTTr]  
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Originally Posted By: WynnTTr
The fact is that they were there on the front lines trying their best... that's all that can be asked of any soldier.
Others can dispute kill claims or how good they were but were those armchair generals up there chasing fighters and dodging bullets?

BTW - the film looks great. Can't wait to see it.


'Amen' to that.


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#3428823 - 11/08/11 03:29 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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It makes sense that the Tuskegee Airmen would be superior to many of their Caucasian-based squadron counterparts, due primarily to their selection process. Since there was only one African American Squadron at the time, it stands to reason that the selection process resulted in only the top tier candidates making the cut for a pilot slot. In other words, you have a single squadron that is the distillation of the best piloting talent in the African American community. Conversely, the best Caucasian piloting talent was distributed among other squadrons.

That this was based on race is statistically arbitrary. It could have been Eye color, hair color, being born during an odd or an even numbered month, it doesn't matter. Race was simply the discrimination De-jour in the 1940's.

That said, I personally doubt claims of a perfect escort record. The nature of fighter escort often comes down to luck; simply being in the right place at the right time-or not. While the aforementioned logic explains why they would be a particularly skilled fighter squadron, it would not explain a miraculous lack of losses. Remember, it's also possible that an aircraft that was thought to be lost to flack later in the mission (and there for wouldn't be counted as a TA loss) was actually lost to enemy fighters.

None of this should diminish the accomplishments of the Tuskegee Airmen though. They are an amazing group: They fought to earn their wings, they fought with their wings, and have left a legacy that can be celebrated by people of all race, sex, and age.

Last edited by AggressorBLUE; 11/08/11 03:31 AM.

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#3463227 - 11/27/11 10:19 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: AggressorBLUE]  
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Everyone seems to be missing the BIGGEST of the pictures here.
When the Tuskegee airmen started escorting bombers, there was a major
change in tactics. Staying close to the bombers. Instead of chasing a bandit to a kill,
you made them turn off of the bombers and then returned to high cover.
This most certainly lessened bomber losses to enemy fighters and probably bolstered
the 'story' whether you believe it or not, of them not losing any bombers.

I too look forward to seeing the movie......not only for the history, but mostly for
the movie-makers finally being able to make the fighter scenes look so realistic. thumbsup

AO

#3463902 - 11/28/11 10:57 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: AggressorBLUE]  
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The google is your friend: http://www.tuskegee.edu/about_us/legacy_of_fame/tuskegee_airmen/tuskegee_airmen_facts.aspx

Why not ask the people who, got their information from the people from the period of history in question?
There are lies, damned lies and, statistics. It cracks me up reading the "hog swill" being generated
on you tube in response to this movie.

It did not matter who was out there with me, he just HAD TO BE a soldier: yes, I've been there.
It's not a freaking video game.

Jaeger

Last edited by jaegermeister; 11/28/11 10:58 PM.
#3464365 - 11/29/11 04:38 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: jaegermeister]  
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Hi Jaeger,
that is my favorite link. Good info.....
Lt. Col. Samuel L. Curtis, who lived in Yeadon PA.,
where I live, gave many talks about his service in WWII,
and I spoke to him many times at air-shows and universities,
and a few times at some neighborhood picnics here in Yeadon,
before his passing in 1989.
All of these men were excellent human beings first who fought for
their country.....and showed the world that they were excellent pilots.
AO

#3464561 - 11/29/11 09:26 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: AngleOff]  
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Originally Posted By: AngleOff
Hi Jaeger,
that is my favorite link. Good info.....
Lt. Col. Samuel L. Curtis, who lived in Yeadon PA.,
where I live, gave many talks about his service in WWII,
and I spoke to him many times at air-shows and universities,
and a few times at some neighborhood picnics here in Yeadon,
before his passing in 1989.
All of these men were excellent human beings first who fought for
their country.....and showed the world that they were excellent pilots.
AO



Hi AngleOff,

I've never had the pleasure of a direct face-to-face with any of these warriors, but I come from a different time:
what are people reading today? where do they get "actual FACTUAL information? Is anyone aware of history?
Does it matter? I grew up with books: we had an actual in home library: my dad subscribed to Ridear's Digest,
and National Geographic: we had a library of Encyclopedia Britannica. Informaton was everywhere.

What the hell happened? I was stationed in Germany - West Germany- for many years. I can still hold a conversation in German
I have half German daughter: I love the country: the people are great. Where are the non-fiction books?
Meh. I've got 5-15years left then I'm out of here.

Jaeger

P.S One more thing.There seems to be an inability by many today to think criticaly from 0000hrs. to 0001hrs:
Is the information presented on page one(1) consistent with that which is presented on page two(2)?
I don't believe that some are being gullible: maybe they're just plain don't "have it"?

Last edited by jaegermeister; 11/29/11 09:40 PM.
#3464787 - 11/30/11 04:27 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Plainsman]  
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Originally Posted By: Plainsman
I'm not saying that definitely was the case. I don't really know. But I don't know that 25 bomber losses is the truth either. "Authorities" were doing a lot of lying back then, as they do now.


People in general, not just "authorities" lie quite a bit. If anything, I would say I see alot more lying or shading of the truth by the "little guy" (whoever that may be) than by those in positions of responsibility. You also have to remember, that, while the Tuskegee pilots were definately the victims more often than not, they had their advocates and partisans even among the white "establishment" even in the 1940s, and certainly in more modern years it is much more acceptable to say positve things about them (true or not) than something that might be construed as negative. That said, just because something like Tuskegee's "no bomber lost claim" is challenged does not mean there was any outright dishonesty by either side. War is confusing, and reports of events in war suffer from that same confustion. Nor are are memories accurate, and anyone who has ever done any historical research will attest that first person narratives after the fact often do not jive with each other or with physical evidence. I'd wager, if Luftwaffe and IR claims are compared to 15th AF losses, it would turn out that some bombers were lost to enemy interceptor. Many aviation claims and records from the WWII and Korean War era have been re-examined in recent years and the historical results adjusted, but seldom, if ever, due to any attempt at deception. The Flying Tigers' incredible kill claims, or Butch O'Hare's "Ace-in-a-Day" fight are among some of the most well-known. The elephant in the room with Tuskegee, of course, is that the politically correct shoe is on the opposite foot from the 1940s, and it is a doubtful that there is a historian willing to deal all the "you're a racist/Uncle Tom" flak he would take re-openning that chapter, especially considering how much heat Daniel Ford took doing similar research on the much less politically-charged AVG.

Oh, and I am looking forward to this movie so far . . . at least it looks better than Flyboys or Pearl Harbor.

Last edited by Nimits; 11/30/11 04:29 AM.
#3504407 - 01/27/12 02:30 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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Looks really bad. "Take that Mr. Hitler" geez c'mon, how silly. ww2 star wars.

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