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#3357320 - 08/02/11 11:10 AM Red Tails, not bad at all?  
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Staniol Offline
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#3358397 - 08/03/11 07:30 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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Plainsman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Staniol


That looks awesome! I can't wait. The dogfighting scenes are going to rock. The best part is, it's a true story. The story of the Tuskegee Airmen. The all-black squadron, in a racially segregated U.S. military, once permitted to fight, they were the ONLY American squadron that never lost a single bomber. Not one.

Here is an interesting History Channel re-creation of the Red Tails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSWEO-ratKM&feature=related

Last edited by Plainsman; 08/03/11 08:32 PM.

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#3358645 - 08/04/11 04:00 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Plainsman]  
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Quote:
once permitted to fight, they were the ONLY American squadron that never lost a single bomber. Not one.


Quote:

"On 24 March 1945, during the war, the Chicago Defender said that no bomber escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen had ever been lost to enemy fire, under the headline: "332nd Flies Its 200th Mission Without Loss";[49] the article was based on information supplied by the 15th Air Force.[50][51]

This statement was repeated for many years, and not challenged because of the esteem of the Tuskegee Airmen, however, Air Force records and eyewitness accounts later showed that at least 25 bombers were lost to enemy fire.[52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen

Quote:

Another report on Sept. 12, 1944, says: Ten Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open.

http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=17731

Sokol1




Last edited by Sokol1; 08/04/11 04:13 AM.
#3359317 - 08/04/11 11:28 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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Plainsman Offline
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I don't know how true that is. It could even be that back in 1944 with all the racism in the armed forces and society that they didn't want the Negro squadron to have a better record than the others.


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#3359350 - 08/05/11 12:20 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Plainsman]  
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Originally Posted By: Plainsman
I don't know how true that is. It could even be that back in 1944 with all the racism in the armed forces and society that they didn't want the Negro squadron to have a better record than the others.


That doesn't really make sense. For years I have also heard there were no loses. (movies have told me so so it must be true) lol

But thinking about it zero loses is just not realistic. But 25 is still a great record.

#3359463 - 08/05/11 03:22 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Falstar]  
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Plainsman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Falstar
Originally Posted By: Plainsman
I don't know how true that is. It could even be that back in 1944 with all the racism in the armed forces and society that they didn't want the Negro squadron to have a better record than the others.


That doesn't really make sense. For years I have also heard there were no loses. (movies have told me so so it must be true) lol

But thinking about it zero loses is just not realistic. But 25 is still a great record.


Whether they never lost a bomber or not is not the main issue for me. When you live in a society (America) during a time (1940s) when nearly every white person in authority believed in the innate inferiority of the Negro, which they used as justification for blatant segregation and discrimination, it is not far-fetched at all to think those same racially prejudiced people would want to do whatever they could to avoid being proved complete imbeciles for believing in racial inferiority in the first place. Making sure the Red Tails did not appear to be "that much better than white fighter pilots" by soiling their record with fictious bomber losses was but one way to save face. I'm not saying that definitely was the case. I don't really know. But I don't know that 25 bomber losses is the truth either. "Authorities" were doing a lot of lying back then, as they do now. Remember the lies the U.S. military spread about Pat Tillman? That he dies fighting the enemy, when he was really killed by another American. Remember the lies U.S. military authorities told about that female soldier, Jessica Lynch? That she heroically fought off the Iraqis to her last bullet, when she herself later admitted none of it was true, that the "generals" made it up.

I can easily see that in 1944 in a segregated military, that prejudiced "generals" who didn't want the black pilots to get any kind of glory whatsover, would lie about the Red Tails' record. In fact, that was PROBABLY the case. If the military lies now (Tillman, Lynch, etc.), with the level of racial prejudice back then, it is easy to see them lying. I'm not saying they did, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.

Anyway, whether the Tuskegee Airmen, aka "Red Tails", lost zero bombers or only 25, it's indisputable that they were heroes, and the preview clip from the upcoming movie looks absolutely awesome. I can't wait to see the film. smile

Last edited by Plainsman; 08/05/11 03:30 AM.

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#3381250 - 09/03/11 08:55 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Plainsman]  
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Originally Posted By: Plainsman
...


You sound like someone that was just told there is no Santa Claus.

Last edited by FozzyBear; 09/03/11 08:56 AM.
#3381562 - 09/03/11 07:30 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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I don't care how good a fighter outfit is, the fighter escorts are not a brick wall. Some enemy airplanes will always get through. The 8th Air Forces hottest units, the 4th and the 56th lost bombers they were guarding. It's rediculous to think that "no losses" story could have been true.
The sky is a huge place. You don't even realize how huge until you get up into an airplane. You can't guard it all. A certain number of losses would be considered "acceptable" because this was understood. If an entire group was lost...well, you might have some explaining to do.
The truth of what they accomplished is good enough, I think.
It's interesting, though, that the 332nd had no aces. I've read that there was a reason for that. When a pilot was approaching that coveted ace status, he was pulled from combat. I'm sure some did shoot down at least five Germn airplanes, but then , didn't report it, knowing that they would be sent home. It's amazing that the AAF would pull that kind of crap, and then overcompensate by creating the "never lost a bomber" myth.
To prevent them from becoming aces , so they wouldn't be seen as better than white pilots, and then tell the world that they were so good that not a single enemy plane ever got past them , just makes no sense at all.


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#3396630 - 09/24/11 01:25 AM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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I know personally one Tuskegee airman. He's really up in years, but even he disputes the claim of no bombers lost to fighters. Legend has it, but that may be all it is. What's important to me is that they got the chance to contribute and fight for their country like any other American. To put it in perspective, this airman is still angry that he had to ride in the back of the troop train while German prisoners rode up front. That was America then. Same for Patton's 761st tanker (Patton's Panthers). Just a blip in history (his story).
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#3413692 - 10/19/11 01:53 PM Re: Red Tails, not bad at all? [Re: Staniol]  
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O.K. right off hand what I didn't like in the trailer.The escorted B-17's of the 5th bomb wing 15th AF had different markings (Olive Drab painted B-17's of the 381st BG based in England with the 8th AF were shown in the trailer).5th Bomb Wing B-17's have Y's painted on their vertical stabilizer (tail) and sometimes even on their horizontal stabilizers too.Each group in the 5th BW had a variation of the Y to tell them apart.
Also at that point in time summer (July) 1944 till the end of the war in 1945 most of the B-17's of the 5th BW were silver unpainted ships (other than markings,nose-tail art) rather than the earlier Olive Drab painted ships however the fewer OD painted B-17's still flew in groups,squadrons etc until they were either lost (shot down) or so battle damaged that they were used for parts at the Foggian Italy air bases.

Someone else mentioned that the Bf-109's in the trailer had the wrong markings too.
The CGI looked a little to cheesy for me but the wrong markings in the rendered CGI was a big turn off for me although I probably will still see the upcoming film even with the bad (but could have been easy to fix ) mistakes in it.

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