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#3349123 - 07/23/11 03:35 PM Flight Model question ???  
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OutRurMind Offline
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When it comes to flight model comparison how are they judged, what criteria is used, and who is qualified to make such a judgement? I will just throw out 2 games as an example Wings of Prey PC and Cliffs of Dover. I have played both and heard Wings of Prey bashed for a poor flight model but I just don't see it as all that bad. I have also played IL2 1946.

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#3349154 - 07/23/11 04:21 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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You'll hear opinions from the full spectrum. Sometimes you'll hear from people who have flown that sort of aircraft or something similar. Then there are people who are flying things that are fairly different and the expectations can be different from the reality. Down at the other end you've got people who have flown in planes, seen movies with planes or read stuff out of "Bob's Big Book of Planes".

In one of the worst cases of the latter there were people telling a real F-15E pilot that he didn't know what he was talking about since they had read that the F-15 would accelerate in the vertical and he said it wouldn't. He pointed out the various reasons why, including that they were talking about completely different variants of the aircraft, but they wouldn't listen.

It really comes down to expectations and perceptions. Some people have more experience to draw on for comparison but everyone has their idea of how an aircraft should react. Hopefully when you're reading someone's review you'll have some idea of where they're coming from. Even if the flight model isn't as good, unless you're trying to use it to train for the real thing, if you're having fun how much does it matter? Some people want to spend 20 minutes running a start up sequence, others just want to blow things up. I think a lot of people here would want a model that would require that you needed to use the right strategy and tactics during a mission. Over time you'll find people whose opinions match yours.

Elf

#3349210 - 07/23/11 05:40 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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I have encountered this kind of thing with many people regarding the flight model of the Comanche in Comanche Gold. I won't go through it all again, but simply put, they think it is too 'arcade-like' because it is easy to fly. They don't take into account that the real Comanche was said to be 'easy to fly' though.

There are a lot of flight model 'elitists' out there, but half of them don't even know what they're talking about. I'm no expert, but I have done a lot of research and I focus mainly on helicopter flight models, which is my area of interest within this complex subject.

Although you should obviously be very careful when it comes to arguing with a real pilot, you can't simply rest on your laurels and accept EVERYTHING that real pilots say (no reference to the F-15 pilot mentioned above, but personal experience) as they don't always know what terms are used in computer simulations or they have a different way of explaining how something works opposed to how a sim buff might explain something. They can also come across as rather awkward, arrogant, ill-informed or a mixture of all and make out that their job with regards to simply flying their machine is harder than what it actually is - or what it would be to people like ourselves who have played sims for years.

#3349215 - 07/23/11 05:50 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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Another thing that you might be missed is that the perception of accuracy of a flight model also depends on the way the flight controls are configured. You can have a very good flight model, but if the controls are set in such a way to make the aircraft feel "strange", a user may be inclined to dismiss it as a crap flight model, as they may not be able to understand the coupling between flight model and aircraft controls.

#3349220 - 07/23/11 05:53 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: Flyboy]  
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Originally Posted By: Flyboy
They can also come across as rather awkward, arrogant, ill-informed or a mixture of all and make out that their job with regards to simply flying their machine is harder than what it actually is - or what it would be to people like ourselves who have played sims for years.


LOL...

Anyway... The funny thing is even aircraft of the same type can fly differently. I flew two different serial numbers of Citation SII many years back and though both came off the same factory the different paths they took with their subsequent owners gave them vastly different flying characteristics. One we called "Old Smokey" because its engines smoked incredibly despite Pratt's best look-sees. The other was so nose heavy that when descending at Vmo the pitch trim would run out and you'd have to manually hold the nose down with a little extra pressure (and it was rigged according to spec).

So..with that said...any two different pilots, engineers, or simmers will have two different opinions of the exact same plane. Just human nature. The only somewhat definitive guidance can sometimes be derived by good testing that results in reproducible diagrams such as those that the old "Raptor" used to do for Falcon 4. I've seen similar statistical analysis done with IL-2 and other sims..and while they offer good baseline guidance they really only relate to the sim since, as mentioned before, even similar aircraft can perform vastly different.

Then throw in the whole pilot technique thing and you really have muddy water worthy of a 50 page debate thread.. wink

But I'm out of my element..I need to get back to my job of "simply flying the machine"... thumbsup

BeachAV8R



#3349225 - 07/23/11 05:55 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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Flyboy Offline
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Gopher - that's also a good point. It never ceases to amaze me the complex ways in which some sim players setup their joysticks, totally messing up what should be a simple, straight-forward flight model. Some people never even think of calibrating or re-calibrating their joysticks either!

#3349230 - 07/23/11 05:58 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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Flyboy Offline
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BeachAV8R - don't take anything I said the wrong way or out of context, please. I should perhaps have made clear that I meant military pilots, where in many cases their aircraft are made easier to fly so that they can concentrate on the mission. I'm sure you know the kind of people I'm talking about, even you, a real civilian pilot, must have seen the kind of attitude that I tried to explain.

#3349238 - 07/23/11 06:11 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: Flyboy]  
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Originally Posted By: Flyboy
BeachAV8R - don't take anything I said the wrong way or out of context, please. I should perhaps have made clear that I meant military pilots, where in many cases their aircraft are made easier to fly so that they can concentrate on the mission. I'm sure you know the kind of people I'm talking about, even you, a real civilian pilot, must have seen the kind of attitude that I tried to explain.


LOL..yeah, but I wouldn't agree that military pilots have aircraft that are easier to fly. I'd take the position that there's are much harder to fly. For many reasons not the least of which is:

1. Uncomfortable. O2 mask, heat, lots of equipment, etc...
2. Single pilot (in most cases) - task saturation can result.
3. All weather, all hours.
4. Sometimes low altitude - non IFR routes, etc.. Lots of hazards to that kind of flight period. Higher percentage of birdstrikes, etc..
5. Speed - much faster at low altitude than civilian counterparts. Resulting in small errors being magnified very quickly.
6. Performance - high G's, fatiguing, and disorienting.
7. The whole "enemy" thing trying to kill you - adding to your stress.
8. The whole "wingman" thing - they are trying to kill you by running into you. All I have to worry about is people getting 1000' vertically from me and several miles horizontally.
9. Combat - weapons, sensors, countermeasures, multiple radios (UHF, VHF, secure)..

Anyway - I don't know much about the F-22 or F-35 or any of those ultra modern fighters, but I would hazard a guess that even those are much more difficult to fly (as in fly, navigate, aviate, communicate, etc..) than our little civil business jets and commercial planes.

I'm sure some military guy will poke his head in here and set the record straight though..

I just think a lot of your premises are mistaken.

BeachAV8R



#3349240 - 07/23/11 06:13 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: Flyboy]  
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Originally Posted By: Flyboy
I'm sure you know the kind of people I'm talking about, even you, a real civilian pilot, must have seen the kind of attitude that I tried to explain.


And yes, I've seen that attitude in pilots....

And FedEx delivery men.
And the gal that makes my sandwich at Subway..
And on the TV News..
And in doctors..
And in lawyers..
And in message board posters..

I think all walks of life suffer the same poor spokesmen for their professions..



#3349398 - 07/23/11 09:29 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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BeachAV8R - again you take what I said out of context and didn't read my post as literally as it was meant. I said easier to FLY. Nothing more, nothing less. So just about everything on your 9-point list in irrelevant. I made a point of not mentioning avionics, weapons, enemy, weather, etc in my reply because they have nothing to do with actual FLYing.

#3349402 - 07/23/11 09:37 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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What are you trying to compare first of all?
The technology - ie. technical merit?
How the performance fits the charts of the real aircraft?
The impression of realism it gives you?

None of those will get you anywhere for two models that are reasonably alike. The differences are in the details. Some FMs you can compare very easily: Some only simulate a point mass when carrying 'luggage' and so you just get increased mass, but you don't feel any imbalance. Likewise if they don't simulate multiple points of force on the aircraft, you miss out on a lot of flying behavior. Etc, etc, etc. In short, some things are obvious, others .. not so much.

Originally Posted By: OutRurMind
When it comes to flight model comparison how are they judged, what criteria is used, and who is qualified to make such a judgement? I will just throw out 2 games as an example Wings of Prey PC and Cliffs of Dover. I have played both and heard Wings of Prey bashed for a poor flight model but I just don't see it as all that bad. I have also played IL2 1946.


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#3349414 - 07/23/11 09:56 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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Flyboy,

I'm trying to read your responses impartially and objectively and I honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make. Perhaps you could clarify what your definition of 'fly' means? It doesn't seem to include pilot tasks or environmental factors. Are we talking only about how responsive the controls are?


Remove before flight
#3349420 - 07/23/11 10:05 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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OutRurMind Offline
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Some of you need to look back at my original questions for you seem to have missed my point. Thank you all for trying to clear things up for me a bit. You would think that here at SIM HQ there would be volumes of accurate answers. I think I should have also asked. How do the software developers determine what is an accurate flight model for a Simulator class game?

#3349424 - 07/23/11 10:12 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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Flyboy Offline
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OK, flying. Once up in the air... all it takes to control the aircraft in a relatively 'normal' state of flight - such as flying straight, doing a banking turn, etc. And yes, how the aircraft responds to control input, etc.

Let's not get bogged down in all the modern aspects of flight. Forget avionics, weapons, enemy, weather, etc. Just look at the early flying machines such as those by the Wright Brothers. They were able to FLY, without all the other stuff seeping in to complicate matters.

As far as modern military aircraft go, I also mean with digital stabilization and flight control computers - you literally just FLY. There is very little to worry about with regards to what pilots of older aircraft had to take into consideration. The stabilization/flight control computers take out the need to monitor all but the most extreme cases of over- or under-control, airframe limits, G limits, wind, sudden weight change (due to dropping bombs), etc.

#3349441 - 07/23/11 10:26 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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I surrender. I can't debate what the definition of "is" is. Flying as you define it exists only in some fantasy world since all of the factors I listed impact how "easy" it is to fly.

:shrug:



#3349451 - 07/23/11 10:40 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: OutRurMind]  
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Originally Posted By: OutRurMind
How do the software developers determine what is an accurate flight model for a Simulator class game?


Well that one's easy. Take, for example, the Korean War expansion for Cliffs of Dover that's supposed to be coming.

Chuck Yeager, in his autobiography, "Yeager", told of flying a MiG-15 delivered into U. S. hands by a North Korean defector. He was ordered to wring it out, to fly it, "higher and faster than any Russian pilot had ever dared. Those b*stards knew better."

General Yeager's impression of the MiG-15 after conducting a "complete flight test" on the aircraft?

"It has problems - oscillating, pitching up unexpectedly, fatal spins, no stall warning, lousy pressurization," and he mentions the emergency fuel pump, which would blow the ass off the airplane if you turned it on.

The general goes on to say, "Man, that thing is a flying booby trap, and nobody will be surprised if I get killed," referring to the danger of the flight testing of the MiG-15 that he conducted at Kadena AB.

He further states, "We learned very quickly that our Sabres were much better airplanes..."

But who the hell is Chuck Yeager to be commenting on flight models? What would he know about airplanes?

The flight models for the Korean War expansion to Cliffs of Dover will be meticulously determined in the following manner:

Programmer: "Oleg, should MiG-15 be able to beat American F-86?"

Tsar Oleg: "Da! American F-86 is pathetic excuse for airplane. Glorious MiG-15 is impeccable Russian fighter jet!"

And we will get a Korean War expansion that will feature a supernaturally capable MiG-15 that can wax the ass of the Sabre every time.

And that's how it works!

Cheers!

Rick... hahaha


"We are extending ourselves in Space and Time not because of capitalism or socialism but in spite of them. The Right/Left Capitalist/Socialist establishments are psychologically unprepared for our emerging situation in Time and Space." - F. M. Esfandiary, Upwingers
#3349453 - 07/23/11 10:42 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Originally Posted By: BeachAV8R
I surrender. I can't debate what the definition of "is" is. Flying as you define it exists only in some fantasy world since all of the factors I listed impact how "easy" it is to fly.

:shrug:





Goddamnit Beach, ya can't give up that easy! Debate him! I think he means flying without the airplane even being involved. Just pure flying, the kind that makes your arms tired.

Cheers!

Rick... rofl


"We are extending ourselves in Space and Time not because of capitalism or socialism but in spite of them. The Right/Left Capitalist/Socialist establishments are psychologically unprepared for our emerging situation in Time and Space." - F. M. Esfandiary, Upwingers
#3349455 - 07/23/11 10:43 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: Sauron]  
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Originally Posted By: Sauron
I think he means flying without the airplane even being involved. Just pure flying, the kind that makes your arms tired.


I did that once. It didn't end pretty and I won't try it again.



#3349456 - 07/23/11 10:49 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Originally Posted By: BeachAV8R
I surrender. I can't debate what the definition of "is" is. Flying as you define it exists only in some fantasy world since all of the factors I listed impact how "easy" it is to fly.

:shrug:


You're simply not going far back enough. This topic is about 'flight models' after all. That means flying. Strip out the avionics, weapons, other factors. None of those are part of the flight model. It's even debatable that a real aircraft's handling should be likened to a simulation's 'flight model', but I guess it's the best description we have. Surely you're just not seeing my point now out of sheer buggerment?

#3349460 - 07/23/11 10:53 PM Re: Flight Model question ??? [Re: Sauron]  
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Originally Posted By: Sauron
Originally Posted By: OutRurMind
How do the software developers determine what is an accurate flight model for a Simulator class game?


Well that one's easy. Take, for example, the Korean War expansion for Cliffs of Dover that's supposed to be coming.

Chuck Yeager, in his autobiography, "Yeager", told of flying a MiG-15 delivered into U. S. hands by a North Korean defector. He was ordered to wring it out, to fly it, "higher and faster than any Russian pilot had ever dared. Those b*stards knew better."

General Yeager's impression of the MiG-15 after conducting a "complete flight test" on the aircraft?

"It has problems - oscillating, pitching up unexpectedly, fatal spins, no stall warning, lousy pressurization," and he mentions the emergency fuel pump, which would blow the ass off the airplane if you turned it on.

The general goes on to say, "Man, that thing is a flying booby trap, and nobody will be surprised if I get killed," referring to the danger of the flight testing of the MiG-15 that he conducted at Kadena AB.

He further states, "We learned very quickly that our Sabres were much better airplanes..."

But who the hell is Chuck Yeager to be commenting on flight models? What would he know about airplanes?

The flight models for the Korean War expansion to Cliffs of Dover will be meticulously determined in the following manner:

Programmer: "Oleg, should MiG-15 be able to beat American F-86?"

Tsar Oleg: "Da! American F-86 is pathetic excuse for airplane. Glorious MiG-15 is impeccable Russian fighter jet!"

And we will get a Korean War expansion that will feature a supernaturally capable MiG-15 that can wax the ass of the Sabre every time.

And that's how it works!

Cheers!

Rick... hahaha


Yeah sort of like the Russian aircraft of IL2.


People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do.
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