OK, let's see a vote. Pound-for-pound, feature-for-feature, all-things considered, what is the best overall racing simulator on the market today?

Consider everything - graphics, physics, user friendliness, realism, everything.

And not just what's best in a certain category, I mean all things considered, what's the overall best?

My own opinion?

1. The SimBin titles, all of which go in one folder and work together apparently. All my previous ones work in Race On. All things considered, it's the top title.

2. rFactor. So close with the SimBin stuff it's almost a tie. If it had real default tracks and cars instead of made up stuff that makes me have to download what I want, it might be a contender.

3. Reluctantly, I put Shift 2 Unleashed in third. I hate to do it, but it is good. But EA has already abandoned it. It can't place well if the publisher doesn't support it, so third is actually generous, but I do like it.

Caveat: That list was established without my having tried iRacing, Live for Speed, or any of the other titles you're going to mention when you object to my list. I can't speak to them if I haven't played them.

And before someone says, "GPL FOREVER!" let us face the fact that GPL is getting very long in the tooth and requires at least some buggering around to even get it to work. It's a Platinum Classic, Hall-of-Famer, but it is no longer a top title even though I love it.

AND, if there are any developers or publishers reading this, would you PLEASE include more American tracks? Especially Watkins Glen GP, short, long, and NASCAR? It's my favorite track. And don't forget Kyalami, either.

So what's yours?

Cheers!

Rick...

I think my personal favorite must be rFactor, quite simply because you can do pretty much anything in it. I can't think of many other sims where I can go from Rally hill climbs, to NASCAR, to vintage Grand Prix cars, all in the same game.

The Simbin series has more polish, but lacks variety, and the likes of netkar and iRacing have superior physics, but the lack of any AI is a let-down for somebody like me who's a little wary of taking to the track online. So overall, rFactor clinches it for me.

1. GTR2/Evo
Best overall in the categories you list. Getting long in the tooth graphics wise, but still good enough allow the suspension of disbelief necessary for a sim.

2. rFactor. At its best is the best, but in reality is a bit of a dogs breakfast due to the sheer number and inconsistency of the mods. Some are fantastic others are a bad joke and then there is the large and controversial middle.

3. GPL Forever!

rFactor (for the multiplayer and the mods), NASCAR Racing 2003 (last really good stock car sim that doesn't cost $Texas to play), Richard Burns Rally (best/only true rally sim), and of course GPL (downloaded and ran the GPLPS installer, and it was ready and working).

This raises a question for me. Does RBR work in Windows 7 64-bit?

If it does, that's my next purchase.

I love rally, have since the days of Mobil 1 Rally Championship, Michelin Rally, Colin McRae Rally, Rally Trophy, etc.

Say, now that I think of it, do any of those beloved oldies work in Windows 7 64-bit?

Any love for DIRT2? Or is too arcadey?

Thanks!

Cheers!

Rick...

Hmmm, rFactor has The Glenn NASCAR and GP, and Kyalami (covering different eras even)...both are awesome courses and a couple of my favorites.

I like rFactor. It reminds me a lot of how the MSFSs are with tons of mods so it always has legs. As said above, I can do 4X4 off roading, F1 in all it's glory, touring cars/ALMS GT or DPs at Mid Ohio, Sebring, or the Daytona road course, Porsche Cup all over Europe, Mini Coopers on mountain courses, Stock Cars at Daytona, Indy Cars at Indy...if you want to race it it's most likely available for d/l. Yeah, there are some goofy mods, but the good thing here at SimHQ is we weed out the bad and MP the good.

I suppose it's the best for me because I love online MP racing and it's what's featured here on the SimHQ servers.

Still waiting for word on rF2.

Hmmmm.....

It's a real tough choice between rF and GTR2. It all depends on the mod or track IMHO.

GTL is still a GREAT game too!

GTR Evo, Race 07, STCC does have a better feel to me.

I am a former SCCA racer and still haven't been able to find the same feel or immersion factor in any of the sims that I felt behind
the wheel of a real car. But I love racing the 60's/70's mods that I growup watching as a kid.

Yep Rick, works fine. Chunx and Chipwich are running it.

After you grab it, head here:
http://www.rallyesim.com/accueil/accueil_en.html

And here:
http://www.simhq.com/_motorsports4/motorsports_137a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_motorsports4/motorsports_138a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_motorsports4/motorsports_139a.html
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/211/1/Richard_Burns_Rally_Reference.html

Run that Ford Focus in RSRBR 2011 and you'll be hooked.

the most popular here: rFactor

the best deal: rFactor

the best simulation of racing: iRacing

imo

Thanks Doug! Links bookmarked, RBR is my next purchase. Well, along with SBK 2011 and a few others.

I should try iRacing. But before I do, I have craptastic rural Internet. It's the only thing available out here in the middle-of-nowhere. Is there any single player/offline element at all?

Cheers!

Rick...

iRacing doesn't have offline racing with AI, but you can practice off-line. IMO it's an ok sim. If you liked the Papy sims, then you will like iRacing. It's not cheap, but no hobby really is. If you go to iRacing, you should stop using the other sims to make the transition easier and spend a lot of time just keeping on the track and building up your rating.

Now for the outsider vote: SBK-X

I mean, look at the numbers: SBK-X has 14 real world tracks, over 80 bikes in three different classes (Superstock 1000, Supersport, Superbike). Each of the three classes plays slightly different in Championship (Superstock only does European tracks, Supersport is international, Superbike has a different race weekend structure to both).

It has an awesome realistic career mode (no unlocking crap, actually being a driver for a team and making better contracts with better teams in higher classes) which it had long before F1 2010 started the "Life the live" crap.

It also allows to take any bike on any track for a quick race, race weekend, time trial or run a full championship.

Technically it's not super sim or top of the line visuals (better than GTR2/Evo still), but it has a dynamic race line (rubbering/drying), it has chaging weather over the weekend, it has adequate damage modelling and even rider injuries. It has a complete set of technical setup options and a good usable telemetry, as well as a clever race engineer helping you to set the Bike up and pushing you on trough the weekend.

And the entire thing cost me 20 bucks when I bought it.

I think pound for pound, this is the most racing you can get out of the box in an unmodded game. O'f course downside is - there are no mods. So an Evo/Race 07 setup with the DLC packs and user mods can get bigger. But technically not as current, and not with such a nice career mode.


And Rick, if you want some rally, do give the WRC 2010 demo a try. More pure rally than either Dirt2 or Dirt3, albeit less visually impressive and the FFB is less well done. Driving physics are pretty decent though.

I suspect this is true.

If iRacing were the same price at rFactor, I'd probably try it, but rF keeps me satisfied.

I would totally get into iRacing if I had money. My problem is, I don't have money.

Also, I know I should be putting in more practice time for Imola this coming weekend but I reinstalled RBR over the weekend. I was never that good at it to begin with, I spend more time off the track than on it...but for those brief moments when I can get through a section of a stage just right, it's the most glorious thing ever.

Without SP, I couldn't add iRacing. To me that's the most important part, I'd rather have a great title w/o MP. In general though, it's as close to a racing career simulation as you're going to get, as well as the most serious about physics. Variety sucks. LOL

1)Race 07 and its official expansions. The best variety of exciting cars and the best tracks. Looks pretty good for old tech, excellent sensation of speed, very good force feedback without going into any .ini file. Mods not required. Even as an old title, Simbin still put out 5 dlc packs for it this year. No one else does that.

2)GT Legends. Retro is cool and this game has some of the best "track feel" to it. It's like a tailor made game for full use of a clutch and H shifter---no paddle shifted auto clutch cars here! Fun cars you just don't see anywhere else, except for some in the Race 07 Retro pack.

3)Motorm4x Offroad Extreme. Because it's different! 4 wheeling rock crawling competitions primarily, but some other races too. Love it! Very nice set of controls, good physics (when rock crawling) considering this isn't a a popular genre. Fun set up with the TDU-like driving around from event to event and your garage. The only game that comes to mind that takes your fuel into account so well. Gas runs out while free-riding on the map as well as in races. If you don't fill up at the station or your extra gas tanks, your free-riding may result in running out of gas during the race.

4)RBR. They say it's got the best physics, but the feel isn't quite there for me. Plus it's absolutely infuriating! LOL This one beat me like a rabid dog so I don't play it, but I do respect it.



Honorable mention, but since the require mods, I don't count them as great stand alone titles:

1)NFS Shift 1, Nordschleife. That track, a handful of cars...that alone gives me more enjoyment than most any full racing game. Best looks, best sensation of speed, transmits the brutal experience of racing a car with taunt go-kart-like suspension. Has to be modded, but this is easily the best Nordschleife that I've seen.

2)rFactor. Alone this thing is incredibly dull, so I don't give ISI credit for making it a good sim. Plus, Simbin bases their games on the same tech but seem to get much more out of it, so I assume ISI called it quits before reaching full potential. Modders make this one good, but at the same time, you don't know which modders base the cars and tracks on the real thing and which are just putting something out there for fun.

If I remember correctly, I think the whole idea behind rFactor was the modding community, which had been producing a stream of content for ISI sims since Sports Car GT.

I can't find a source now, but I vaguely remember reading an article pre-release that said that rFactor was being created as the modder's sim - little official content but wide-open for mods.

You are correct. Most people think that rF was a game, but it was really a modding platform. There are some really nice mods out there for rF:

Quick list:

Endurance Series Mod

V8Factor Unleashed - V8 Supercars

FVR V8 2011 -

DRM Revival Mod

DTM 2008/2009/2010 mod

I can see that. I'd still leave it on there as I've got it even though it would be more a developer's kit than a game. I hope there's more to rF2 from them when it comes out though.

rF2 WIP screens do show a lot more real cars and tracks.


Plus ISI has been working with a few of the modding groups to bring a few toys into rF2:
dynamic weather - rain
and
track surface - rubber build up and such

And I have heard that the "oval" AI has been improved too.

Well they sure as hell couldn't make it much worse. Well they could, but let's hope not.

Could they make it worst?

Yes, it's entirely possible.

Even games with good AI still have the occasional quirk:

It started out like a real NASCAR wreak and quickly becomes an ARCA race crash

Best racing sim?

First is of course GTR2 and Race 07. I can write a million words text on the reasons why, but I guess you guys knew most of them already ^_^. Had to ignore GT Legend, though; tried the demo and was glad that I did, the cars skid in all turns, I think they better put some turn-and-bank indicator in the cockpits..
Second is NASCAR Racing 2003. Put aside the "forgiving" 'caution detector' it's hard for anyone not to love this old sim. It's second only to SimBin's titles because of it very outdated graphics.
I'm thinking about placing Gran Tourismo 5 in third place, but I don't know if this one's a sim or a sim-oriented arcade. All I know, I learned how to turn off traction control and ABS and still finish strong in all racing sims I owned thanks to GT5.
GP Legend? Got one from my friend some 4 or 5 years back, reinstalled it recently, and is still wondering if probably Papyrus was actually wanted to make a Formula Drift simulation back then.. these little cars never go where I told them!

The question is what's the best? Not what's the most popular. That's a different question.

Here are the best racing sims:

1. NASCAR Racing 2003 Season. Why? An absolute masterpiece the day it was released. It had EVERYTHING, multiplayer and single player. It is still the best. The best A.I. of any stock car racing sim ever made, maybe the best A.I. of any racing sim of any kind. Ever. Period. iRacing can't touch NR2K3 for that reason alone. A one-dimensional (MP races only) sim like iRacing can't possibly achieve Best Racing Sim.
2. GTR2
3. GTR Evo/Race ON/STCC
4. rFactor
5. GPL

NASCAR HEAT on hardcore has the best AI. IMO. You run a clean lap and then set it for the AI base. If if run the "high line", they will too.
Platinum G2 - Sprint Cup with all the 2011 tracks
http://www.themodsquad.info/



Best part is that the mod is FREE and so isn't HEAT. FREE. Legal FREE.
"NASCAR Heat Essentials"

Best racing sims IMHO

1. IRacing - best online competition, track modeling, FFB, and hopefully soon new tire model physics, but spendy and no AI and being competitive requires a lot of time investment
2. netkarPro - best physics and FFB, no AI and limited car models, lots of potential here but feels rough and unfinished, I use it mostly for hot lapping
3. Race07/GtrEvo - great value, lots of cars models and tracks, physics and FFB are decent but not great, graphics and track modeling is dated, good fun
4. RBR - best rally physics and stages, graphics is becoming dated, still great fun
5. RFactor - great value and amazing mod variations, AI is bad, FFB is bad, physics are ok depending on mod, popular but I have hard time going back to it after the better physics and FFB in Race07
6. GTR2/GTL - dated physics graphics and FFB, favorites at one time but now I prefer to race the cars and tracks from both these titles that were made as mods for Race07

I have big hopes that rFactor2 will solve the bad FFB and AI problems and update the track and physics modeling which would make it the new killer sim, most likely a 2012 release I am guessing.

As another former SCCA racer, I actually do feel some of the immersion in rFactor. As recently as the Scoda Touring Car Series a week ago. A lot of what I had to do with a race prepped ITA Neon with throttle and brake feathering to get the balance through corners to get any kind of grip, it reminded me a lot of running in SCCA races. It's not the exact feel as being behind the wheel for real, but running door to door with 15-20 other drivers on a SimHQ race weekend is as close as I can think. I still get sweaty and sometimes the same sick feeling I used to get at the false grid before a big race.

Y'all will hate me for saying this, and it's probably just a friendly form of trolling (?), but...

My real life lately has gotten far more time-consuming than at any point in recent times. That's pretty much killed my hobby as I have no spare time for it.

But I do get a spare hour or two in the eveneings, once in a blue weekend. This weekend was one of those times. I decided to crank up my PS3 with GT5 (the only game on it).

I finally scored enough game points to buy a real race car: A SuperGT 500 Nissan GTR. In the "special events" section there's a race series for SuperGT (against the AI). All Super GT cars, all at real race venues like Laguna Seca and Nurburgring GP.

With the Traction Control and ABS turned off, the game set to simulation physics mode, and with the in-cockpit view, I was stunned at how great the immersion was. From FFB to vibration cues to AI response and tire physics, the game really held my attention.

I am certainly not saying that GT5 is a sim, especially since it lacks features that we expect in a sim: strategy, pit stops, etc. But it certainly wasn't lacking in challenge and subjective 'feel' in terms of car handling and response. And it looks pretty good, too.

Sauron, this was shot on a Win7 64bit PC



Now go buy a copy of this truly outstanding sim before they're all gone!

I left GT5 off my list due to the consoleness, but I would definitely consider it a sim and on par with Race07 and above rFactor for me on realistic driving feel.

I agree with you, the GT5 physics and FFB are definitely good, and the SuperGT cars are some of the best balanced car class in the game, I hoped at one time that there would be enough SimHQ folks with GT5 with enough interest to race a SuperGT league, it would be close racing fun.

I love GT5, but all the racing I do in this game is to get me money to buy some faster cars. What I really enjoy is doing Time Trial around tracks, preferably the "crazy" ones like Nurburgring Nordscleife. The AI drivers are way too arcade-like.

Ditto. But then again, my favorite thing to do in any race sim is to just turn laps and try to master the track with different types of cars. In that respect GT5 can scratch that itch, although I wish I could alter things like the fuel load, and tire wear rates, so that I could compress a stint to something more time-managable for me. But again, that's not something that console racing titles do right now.

Yeah It sounds like we all use GT5 similarly, for me it is mostly for hot lap enjoyment with all the various cars in my garage, mostly on Nordschleife and Suzuka, though I also enjoy some of the seasonal events and the AMG Academy events.

I also occasionally take part in some of the online track day sessions people host where you don't actually race but work on lap times on a track with other racers, it is similar to the iRacing practice sessions, but with many more car options.

I'm looking forward to the FM4 trackday feature for that too.

Man does this statement bring back a lot of memories!

Just to have some arts 'n crafts fun, I've posted some GT5 screenshots in the Screenshot forum.

Check 'em out here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3339199.html#Post3339199

Speak for yourself. I refuse to play that game. It's console.

Can you hit the spectators?

iRacing all the way if you've got a decent connection and enough money. The physics are superb (ISI sims like rFactor just don't convey the feeling of weight transfer you get from iRacing), it has wide variety of authentically modeled cars and tracks, and you can jump into a competitive race with real people at just about any time of day.

On the money front, I think it's helpful to keep in mind that a month's worth of an iRacing subscription costs the same as 16 minutes on my local karting track.

Ah ... PC Elitism ... just as fun a hobby as XBOX360 or PS3 fanboysm, or soccer hooliganism, the apparent joy in mooning the other team's fans is not to be denied :-)


Seriously though GT5 may be console (and has it's gameplay design problems) but the driving physics, FFB and track modeling IMHO are better than many PC so-called "sims" that are highly regarded on this forum, and so I think it belongs in any discussion of "Best Racing Sim", don't let your biases blind you :-)

Spent a great afternoon with GTR2/GTR Evolution and GT5. The first provides me with a great racing simulation and the second is an entertaining driving simulation/game. The design of GT5 can certainly be frustrating at times but, as others have mentioned, there are aspects that are well done. However, for simulating racing, the PC titles are still comfortably leading (for me anyway).

Spot on. While good physics and tire modeling are minimum requirements for a racing sim, you also need to capture the other aspects of racing, such as the strategic aspects of running a race (pit strategy, tire management, fuel management, brake physics, damage replication, visual scene, etc.). Without those elements modeled or modeled correctly, you just have a driving sim. I think that sums up the main gripe with GT5. Tire heating and wear are not modeled or modeled well (tires can be overheated, but they cool off in just a few seconds, and cold tires don't seem to impact handling much), and I rarely see my fuel gauge come off of full.

you can see it in endurance series

I revisited rFactor today for the Targa Florio, and I have to say that the rFactor physics and FFB feel much much better on my new GT2 wheel than they ever did on my G25/G27s, which had always a very vague weak FFB, and made it hard to come back to after I got used to better FFB in GTREvo and iRacing.

The combo of the GT2 + reelfeel + the Historix mod and the H shifter gear grind mod have really made me take back my previously bad opinion of rF, I am having a blast heel and toeing and tossing these old cars around the track.

It is still very mod dependent but with the right combo I finally see why some people rank rF pretty high on their list of best sims, I'm glad I rediscovered it from hearing the feedback on this discussion.

Last Sunday I had couple of mates in to watch F1 race at Silverstone. With my 'home' racetrack Poznan first time appearing in official release (latest official addon to GTR Evo), I created a custom grid with all types of cars available for GTR Evo. Road spec cars from Simbin (Audi R8, BMW M3s) same cars with race spec tyres, some road spec US muscle cars, some Radicals, some Caterhams and single seaters like Formula BMW., Formula Master and F1 2007. We enjoyed simulated trackday when so different spec of cars can share track at same time. Priceless experience when driving road spec M3 to the limit you hear and see F1 car flying by or when in powerful but heavy road muscle car you see Formula BMW light power light weight to go on outside. This the feature I like in GTR Evo - custom mixed class grids. Very often you watch races and you miss the sense how fast these cars are going untill you put them on same tarmac with road spec cars.

As far as physics go its a toss between Live for Speed (how crazy is that nobody even mentioned it so far?!!), Iracing and NKPro. I do not want to pay for I racing, LFS is my mainstay. Simbin stuff way below; LFS has probably the best FFB, good car variety (something for everyone) and its graphics aged most gracefully of all yesteryear sims.
But yeah, imho, LFS/Iracing/Nkpro all have tyre/suspensionphysics/ffb on a different level to everything else - as far as track racing goes anyway.

Best Auto Racing Sim? (I'd also never look at it as "If I could only have one...")

Nothing new: For online, rFactor gets the overall nod from me. It does well in just about any racing genre, and is also very mod dependant. I don't look at rFactor as a self-contained title. It's a platform, as advertised... Customize, Control, Connect. (I look forward to rF2.)

For offline, I'd go with GTR2, and/or the more recent Simbin titles. GTR2 came back for me after a recent refresher, trying the latest NAGP mod offerings for GT1 and GT2.

As mentioned by earlier posts, the Race07/GTR Evo/Race On series does seem like simpified physics, compared to GTR2, with somewhat improved FFB. I've used this platform more than GTR2 in recent times because of the Formula RaceRoom mod (the F1 look-alike).

GTR2 doesn't have the online racing friendliness of rFactor, but it does seem like a more complete and polished piece of sim-racing software. The Race07 series titles have some definite gaps, as far as completeness. GTR2 (and other Simbin titles) also include some excellent game features that may be incorporated into rF2. Time trials, Ghost Cars, ...

There are some older PC titles I haven't tried, so I can't include them in a "best" rating.
I'm still not interested in the iRacing pricing-scheme -- I'll leave it at "No thanks."
My kids might appreciate the console-racers.

LFS

RBR

netKar Pro

iRacing is used by Dale Earnhardt Jr, Justin Wilson and Will Power, so that might give you some idea of their feelings on the matter.

The question was not 'which is the best and cheapest'.

As good as it is in many areas, iRacing has no real SP, so it's half a game IMO. The ultimate "RPG-like" career mode, which is certainly hardcore. However, many complain about having to "unlock" cars and tracks in career mode in other games though, and that's what iRacing is all about. You can't just jump online in the public championships and race any series in there until you've spent months --as well as a good bit of money-- building up.

Right, and IMO that makes it unworthy of my time. It's the best simulation of yada yada yada, but the strings attached (monthly fee, tracks and cars sold separately, prove you're worthy to race them online, only events scheduled by others as you can't just race a friend and fill out the field with AI, etc) are just too much for me.

I'd go so far to say that I might go for it DESPITE both the pay-as-you-go and the pay-for-what-you-use double whammy IF it was a "full game" as you say with AI, SP, the ability to do your own custom races MP with AI, and so on. Likewise, with all those restrictions I might go for it IF the costs were reduced. In other words, you have too many items that are cons vs the pros to make it worthwhile. iRacing has some diehard fans, but they won't appeal to a larger crowd until they resolve some of these things. If you want to charge premium prices, you need a premium product, and that means you need some of these "basic" features that far cheaper sims have had for ages, like AI, SP that's more than test driving one car on a track, etc.

There are lots of times that I can go out on a track and get great lap times, but when I have to drive in traffic I lose a LOT of time because other cars take the preferred line away. You need to practice with other cars there, and if I have to rearrange my schedule to make a race I certainly won't also have time to rearrange for practice there on top of that!



The Jedi Master

I used to be a casual racer, at least with rFactor, which I enjoyed very much, but since starting with iRacing I have done practically nothing else. They way it sucks you in, keeps track of everything you do and rewards or punishes you for on-track behavior, really has to be experienced to appreciate the addictiveness of it.

When you race in the upper license levels you know the odds are most people really care about the race, their safety rating, etc.

It's also quite beautiful for a racing sim, runs very smoothly.

My complaint is that you can't race against real people at just any track, it must already be set up. While it has it's downside as far as money is concerned, the tracks and cars are absolutely topnotch, so you're getting what you paid for.

I suppose if you wanted to only race some other sim such as rFactor or GTR or GPL and had a league, it would be pretty good. But if you are not a league racer, this is like having one set up with every stat recorded, points awarded, etc. The product support is also excellent as they have a going concern with keeping this sim up to date and as good as simulation can be.

Which Sim is best?

It depends on the perspective.

Physics wise:
1- NKP
2- sims based on isiMotor2 (from rFactor to GTR Evo)
3- Racer
4- XMR
5- LFS
6- Shift2

iRacing is heavily flawed - in the more than 16 months since I first subscribed, it went from the OTM ("the best tire model ever!") to the NTM ("the OTM had several serious problems, but the NTM is light years away, much more advanced and fully theoretical") to the yes-the-NTM-has-several-problems-but-we-are-working-on-them. Cars exploding/slingshot to the air, wrong tire temps/pressure/wear, phantom collisions, track problems (people crossing the finish line cutting through the track...and being credited for whatever they achieved. Not to mention "little details" such as odd behaviour ("never ending slides" from straight line braking at low speeds, or unexpected (unexplainable) spins from the mildest of touches to the throttle pedal...when stopped and attempting to move forward).

Online racing:
1- iRacing (solid netcode, the best race management I have ever seen)
2- sims based on isiMotor2 (from rFactor to GTR Evo)
3- LFS
4- NKP
5- Shift 2

Graphics:
1- Shift 2 (as good as GT5, I think)
2- iRacing
3- LFS, NKP and sims based on isiMotor2 (from rFactor to GTR Evo)

Sounds:
1- Shift 2
2- sims based on isiMotor2 (from rFactor to GTR Evo)
3- iRacing
4- NKP
5- LFS

Tracks:
1- iRacing

Some modding groups (Vince Klortho and his team comes to mind, com8 too, NeelJ too, etc) produced fasntastic tracks for isiMotor2 based simulations, but iRacing's tracks are really well done.

If iRacing is so 'heavily-flawed' why do so many real world drivers populate it?

I just finished up an hour or so in GPL; after that it's hard to really think about anything else.

Hmmm...I have worked with and discussed the telemetry from iRacing. There is a specific child forum for that on the official forums, look up the feedback (from non-haters and non-fanboys) and discussions regarding the subject, if you want to understand what I and others are saying here and elsewhere.

As for the drivers...

Read my whole post, please. Handling/physics wise, it is heavily flawed, regardless of the hype and claims to the contrary. However, it is still a simulation, an evolving one (even if too slow or sluggish).

It is also the only simulation providing a true race management system. But on top of that, real world drivers (not that many, how can anyone claim otherwise?) also find its tracks quite well done. One of the most vocal real world drivers, Tony D'alberto,recently emphasized tracks above anything else; then came the fun factor, for driving against his buddies, and then the "somewhat realistic" handling of the car (he meant the Ford Falcon V8).

On top of that, as I said, iRacing netcode and prediction code is second to none.

Physics wise? Unfortunately, quite disappointing.



Brian Beckman had very good words for GPL.

Old stuff but good!

Well, the thousands of drivers who enjoy iRacing will continue to do so.

And if there are any deficiencies I'm sure their code people will get around to fixing it eventually.

Meanwhile, those who look for weeds will find weeds.

Just wanted to add an opposing view, I love the iRacing NTM compared to the OTM and have not experienced those crazy events you describe in all the hours of driving the NTM in lots of practice sessions endurance races.

While it is obvious NTM still has some things not quite right under the hood as far as tire pressure/temp/wear, the actual feel for the car and being able to drive it in a believable/predictable manner at the limit and recovering a slide is much improved now with the NTM compared to the OTM where you basically just slid/drifted the tires at the limit the whole time to be fast.

This is just my personal opinion, but I think many people just grew up on that OTM way of driving sims all these years via the papy sims since GPL, just sliding the cars through corners and now are having a hard time with the NTM because that is no longer fast and you can lose it much more easily, but I think eventually once they get used to it and once iRacing fixes some of those things under the hood with temp/pressures, most people will eventually agree the OTM was pretty unrealistic and the NTM is more like the real thing. The NTM beta felt crazy to me at first too like the car would swap sides unpredictably but after driving only the NTM for all these last few months and getting used to it on the GT and Skippy, I've come to believe the NTM is the best realistic and predictable physics out there even better than nKPro I think.

Just my $.02 as a fan of many race sims, I would have a hard time force ranking them all since I like different ones for different things, but I tend to spend the most time with iRacing, nKPro, Race07, FM4, GT5 recently - BTW fans of simracing like me are so spoiled with quality choices nowadays that I often find the fanboy/elitism fights between the different ones funny since it is easy to own all of them :-) or maybe I am just crazy.

Maybe thats why he hasnt won a race in how many years? and has blow how many engines?

j/k..

on the PC, iRacing hands down.

on a Console, its a toss up between FM4, GT5, Race Pro

In the official forums, when those of us pointed out the many deficiencies exposed by telemetry and replays (later acknowledged) to Dave Kaemmer himself in the thread he started about the NTM, the hateful fanboys said exactly the same thing you posted above. DK and a known engineer tried to cool things down by discussing particulars with us, but fanboys ruined that thread (as usual, the old method of silencing questions and criticism).

Basically, you're blatantly questioning "if there are any deficiencies", even though threads on the official forums prove(d) there are many problems. Ok. I know where you're coming from, so nothing more to say to you except this: those who pretend weeds are roses are worse than lunatics.




Nothing to do with the OTM. We had been pointing out its deficiencies for some time, the official response was it was the "best out there". Then they released the preview NTM, which was a big step forward in spite of its shortcomings, and the official saying was that the NTM was light-years ahead of the OTM, that the OTM was flawed but they had finally "nailed it". Then came 2.0, few things improved, and other serious problems were introduced. We either emailed DK, PMed him or discussed these matters in the telemetry threads, but to no avail. The latest update still didn't solve anything relevant, but by then many of us no longer bothered to give feedback.

Now...the NTM is better than NKP?! My!, the extent to which you people are willing to go...

I agree there have been lots of great experienced feedback on the NTM forum on iRacing about where it differs from real life, and I will be the first one to admit there is still some obvious tweaking needed with the NTM, you can tell by how much extra grip the tires have first 2 laps out of the pits and then they lose a bit of grip as they heat up and stay stable after that, which is backwards from what I would expect with cold tires coming out of the pits until they warm up and then until they wear out.

Still outside of that when I don't focus on the academic/statistical performance of the NTM, the driving feel and physics of it feels much more realistic/predictable compared to the OTM and yes also compared to nKPro.



Not sure what you mean by "you people" but I don't have any agenda (pro or anti iRacing) or belong to the Illuminati, I just love driving sims and calls them as I sees them, I like iRacing and nKPro but the NTM on the GT feels better to me than nKPro, your mileage may vary and it won't stop me from lapping Nordschleife, Macau, Imola or Trento-Bondone in nKPro and loving it.

Listen, that's all great but I think we all know the true #1, above and beyond all of those titles...

Well it's obvious iRacing is too porked for the truly sublime.

Please continue to enjoy your sim.

This is like the guy who proclaims Little League is so much purer baseball than the big leagues.

Fine, stick to whatever floats your boat.

iRacings biggest flaw is it's subscription based... And for that reason alone it will never take up space on my PC unless I hear nothing, and I mean nothing but good things about it... For now iRacings only claim to fame is it's tracks and netcode, 2 things that won't be hard for the competition to catch up on... So I'll continue to look at other options before even bothering with the iRacing website...

iRacings biggest flaw is ... that once you've tried it none of your current racing sims are good enough any more!
As an overall package nothing else compares.
Though WMD looks to have the potential.
Cheers
Keith

Here's your favorite race buddy putting on his official SimHQ Forum Manager's hat, which I hate to do in here because of all the places in SimHQ, this is the friendliest and needs the least amount (if any ever) moderating!

A simple question was asked about the best race sim. This is a loaded question in any forum, but I thought this could be different in here than the other forums. We all have our favorite sims. Give your opinion, but don't argue...and don't continue to argue.

ar·gue/Verb: 1.Give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view.


Whatever you choose, get out there and drive. Racing is all good!

I for one don't really enjoy iRacing as much as rFactor or GTR2. The prices aren't really an issue for me, but if I buy a track on there to race, and they only race it once a season, then it seems like a waste of money to me(I know you can practice and stuff but I really only like to play online). I don't do the oval racing so there are only a couple of series that you can run that have a lot of people on the road side. Skip barber series is who can drift the best around the track, rookie series is all right, people make more mistakes but that's fine, they are learning. The only series I ever enjoyed was the Corvette series, but it barely had anyone on when I was on. Here at SimHQ where I started sim racing, we race two to three times a week on all sorts of different stuff and we always have a bunch of people. You don't have to worry about safety rating or running into someone and having them report you. Plus after you buy the game everything else is free, sure the quality differs but it's still fun.

On the subject or real drivers using Iracing, I'm sure they are sponsored by Iracing so they have to say nice things about it, sure they probably have fun playing it too, but there are probably just as many real drivers using rFactor and GTR2.

Well said. No other racing sim, regardless of simulation infallibility or not, is as addicting as iRacing. Once you try it, nothing else will satisfy your sim racing needs like this one.

Unless you hate iracing, then something else will satisfy your needs.

IMO there is no 'best' sim. There is only the sim that fits your individual needs the best. For some that may be iRacing, for others it's GTR2, rFactor or something else. They all offer things that the others don't. It's just a question of what you want and the kind of environment you like to race in.

Agree. Too many personal preferences involve to make a single sim become absolutely, universally "best". So, any opinion here should be taken under "IMHO" context and respected. Anyway, I'm amaze that nobody gets killed here after so many pages. Someone in my local sim racing forum made a thread similar to this not long ago. He almost started a World War III.. Tells me about how a lot more mature you guys are, and why I prefer to hang around here than anywhere else.

Well said, for people like me various games are actually "best sim" for different things and moods I see no reason to bash someone else's best sim:
* iRacing - best online racing and "pickup" races that feel like league races since I don't have time for a league
* rF/GTREvo/Race07 - best variety of fan made racing mods and tracks that are unique and don't exist in other official sims
* nKPro - best sim with great physics and FF that also supports rain, great track mods and converted tracks from rF/Race07 etc (Macau is my favorite)
* GT5 - best Nordschelife (and now Spa) hotlapping sim with endurance type 24hr weather and changing daylight/night effects
* FM4 - best car collection and car career sim
* RBR - best rally sim
* SBK 2011 - best motorcycle sim

For me there are lots of "best sims" and I am just glad that we have all these quality options available at reasonable expense that I can afford, we've sure come a long way from the days where I caught the simracing bug on the C-64 and then PC.

Well said... We will always have our favourites for different reasons... And with such a vast array of packages out there, there will never be that one sim that has everyone loving it... Someone will always find a flaw that has another title raised above the general concensus...

You obviously have not visited the animals at the SimHQ Zoo located within the Cliffs of Dover/IL-2 Sturmovik Forums.