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#3325123 - 06/22/11 03:04 PM Controller recommendations  
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robnpat Offline
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Looking at a new controller when CH comes out and thought about the Logitech G940. I have the Logitech Extreme3D but want something different for CH. Any thoughts? I just can't wait for CH to be released, even in a Beta form copter

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#3325167 - 06/22/11 04:18 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Rich_Price Offline
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For helos it's got to be the Virtual Blade!! tactical
copter

Not that I'm biased or anything!!


Edit: with Apache Flights Controls in development.................. Errr still!!

Last edited by Rich_Price; 06/22/11 04:21 PM.
#3325208 - 06/22/11 04:57 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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How is that going Rich is it still on the back burner? Or are you working on the controls again?


I've got a bad feeling about this.....
#3325293 - 06/22/11 05:55 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Rich_Price Offline
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Hellooo!!

They will be on the back burner until the end of August when I'm back from honeymoon. They will then be moved straight to front burner and on full blast. I have been given free reign by the boss for after we get back!! Lol

#3325311 - 06/22/11 06:13 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Flexman Offline
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I'd love to test with the Logitech G940, using a force-sensing stick (X65) rekindled my enthusiasm for something that wobbles smile I'll shoot Logitech a support/eval query and see if they want to help us out with some testing. Non of the other stick makers responded to such inquiries so I don't hold my breath.

Rich's Virtual Blade system will be getting our full support of course. Can't wait to try out the new advanced flight model on it, getting close to that milestone. A floor mounted system is a perfect way to feel connected to a cockpit. It's more of an installation than a joystick though wink Much much harder to sneak past the wife when you have to move a sofa out of the way to use it.

Force feedback isn't something we can easily support due to the multi-platform interface API being used and there shouldn't be a need to add force-feedback. I can see how it might benefit certain events, to relay cues normally felt through the airframe. It's not a priority and I wouldn't rule it out at a later date. New toys on my desk have a way of generating enthusiasm and extra bits of code.

The G950 looks like it has enough switches to operate all of the stick mounted Apache functions. Certainly looks the part and probably built like a tank.

Currently testing with a Saitek X65F but not liking the form factor much. I'm used to flying helos with my arm rather than wrist, so I don't get on with force sensing, I like the movement. X52 is better suited in that respect. That's just my personal preferences, technically it works really well, quite sensitive however I've found Saitek drivers only map a sub-set of the rotary axis to the Windows media layer so they are not all available. Not having tested any other of the more recent HOTAS systems I can't say if they do the same thing.


Richard - You Have Control
Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3325313 - 06/22/11 06:15 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: Rich_Price]  
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Flexman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rich_Price
Hellooo!!

They will be on the back burner until the end of August when I'm back from honeymoon. They will then be moved straight to front burner and on full blast. I have been given free reign by the boss for after we get back!! Lol


Blimey, you got/getting married? Congratulations.
Great timing too smile


Richard - You Have Control
Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3325319 - 06/22/11 06:20 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Rich_Price Offline
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Certainly am Flex, end of next month. Will send you an email tomorrow or catch you on msn, I have got something to chat about!! thumbsup

#3325787 - 06/23/11 07:21 AM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: Flexman]  
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arneh Offline
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Originally Posted By: Flexman
I'd love to test with the Logitech G940, using a force-sensing stick (X65) rekindled my enthusiasm for something that wobbles smile I'll shoot Logitech a support/eval query and see if they want to help us out with some testing. Non of the other stick makers responded to such inquiries so I don't hold my breath.


I tried to get one from them in return for implementing Force Feedback and support for the specific G940 buttons with lights in EECH. They initially were supportive and said they would do it, but then just stopped replying to any further inquires. But since you have a new sim instead of modding a 10-year-old one, you might be more successful smile


Quote:
Force feedback isn't something we can easily support due to the multi-platform interface API being used and there shouldn't be a need to add force-feedback. I can see how it might benefit certain events, to relay cues normally felt through the airframe.


I think the biggest advantage to force feedback in a helicopter sim is that you can implement the force trim properly. It may not seem like much, but once you get used to it, it feels so much better to just have the center position move when you press trim, instead of having to move the stick back to center.

#3325789 - 06/23/11 07:32 AM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: Flexman]  
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tagTaken2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Flexman

Force feedback isn't something we can easily support due to the multi-platform interface API being used and there shouldn't be a need to add force-feedback. I can see how it might benefit certain events, to relay cues normally felt through the airframe. It's not a priority and I wouldn't rule it out at a later date. New toys on my desk have a way of generating enthusiasm and extra bits of code.


Is there a trimming system, ala Black Shark?

#3325811 - 06/23/11 08:54 AM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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AD Offline
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South East Asia
I'm a big fan of CH Products gear so I use the CH fighterstick. I've found it to be a great multi-purpose stick with a light sensitive feel. I used a Saitek X-45 before that and found it to be clunky and unresponsive, it has a decent throttle though.

Cheers


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#3325822 - 06/23/11 09:32 AM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Flexman Offline
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I've avoided a Black Shark style trimming system which is suitable for military spec simulation but isn't desktop friendly.

The advanced flight model has an auto-trim feature which doesn't require force-feedback. With auto-trim you shouldn't have to think about it and doesn't exclude any joystick controller. How does it work?

During normal flight the pilot is naturally correcting attitude when changing speed or altitude. Auto-trim gradually moves this back to centre position over time. The result is that you position the stick back in the centre as part of small corrections to flight attitude you make anyway. It's totally intuitive.

*edit* This can engaged/disengaged from the FMC page, left column.

When I get around to adding force-feedback there will be a force-trim system which should be a simple matter of disconnecting auto-trim and setting the physical stick position to the virtual stick position (then attaching an input to toggle this mode).

The Khronos group that oversees OpenGL specification are working on a cross-platform input specification which I hope will simplify/unify controller interfaces...someday. That day can't come soon enough.


Last edited by Flexman; 06/23/11 09:37 AM.

Richard - You Have Control
Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3325823 - 06/23/11 09:35 AM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Flexman Offline
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Too bad there are no force feedback pedal systems. That would be handy in the helo-simulation too.


Richard - You Have Control
Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3325828 - 06/23/11 10:00 AM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: arneh]  
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Flexman Offline
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Originally Posted By: arneh
I tried to get one from them in return for implementing Force Feedback and support for the specific G940 buttons with lights in EECH. They initially were supportive and said they would do it, but then just stopped replying to any further inquires. But since you have a new sim instead of modding a 10-year-old one, you might be more successful smile


I hope so, Logitech I presume have a simple SDK like they do with their keyboards. Saitek have something similar with the DirectOutput SDK which I got working but they never got back to me. Hey ho. A smart person should wrap up all these different interfaces but it's a lot of work.

Originally Posted By: arneh
I think the biggest advantage to force feedback in a helicopter sim is that you can implement the force trim properly. It may not seem like much, but once you get used to it, it feels so much better to just have the center position move when you press trim, instead of having to move the stick back to center.


I'll need some FF hardware to play with. And coding will have to be via SDLs force-feedback calls. Otherwise I'll have to go backwards re-do the joystick code with DirectInput. Unless there's an alternative generic FF interface?

Last edited by Flexman; 06/23/11 10:02 AM.

Richard - You Have Control
Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3328844 - 06/26/11 07:29 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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DethJeff Offline
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flex... Im curious what you dont like about the X-65 ( I have one)...

I THOUGHT I would miss the "physical referencing" that you get from a moving stick, but I didnt. I was wondering what your thoughts on this were.

I find my self porpoising a lot in A-10, but, in Apache: Air Assault I find the stick works very well (could be because of the dumbed-down x-box flight model too).

two things I like about it is the ability to switch the amount of force on the fly and the fact that your hand isnt moving makes repositioning of your hand for HOTAS commands unnecessary.

I wish the ergonomics were better (the stick & throttle are too big for me) and the crappy plug going to the stick would stay in.

Overall (so far) i found the x-65 isnt horrible but isnt great... just different. I will say in A-10 I have to pull fairly hard to come out of dives and I do like that a lot.

#3329004 - 06/26/11 11:37 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Flexman Offline
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My personal preference for helicopters are joysticks I can operate using arm movement, not my wrist. I didn't like the gloop in the throttle, took a while to work out and isn't a problem now. Sometimes it will calibrate off centre and there's no means in the driver to centre it (which is really odd). The tension adjust hex screw under the throttle is tiny and seems to be made of soft material. Don't under any circumstances touch it.

I love the textured metal construction...except where it isn't metal, some hats are plastic but most are not. Other than that it's quite a nice lump to have on the desk. The control panel for sensitivity adjustment is quite handy, when flown with CH you can switch to F1 mode for hovering and final descent when every twitch in the velocity vector counts.

What it might lack in physical comfort is made up for by consistency. Apart from the odd day when it powers up slightly off to one side it never drifts or looses tension. It's like what you said DethJeff, not bad but not great either. I've never had a perfect joystick though.

Just prefer a bit of arm waggling in my helo sims.

#3330118 - 06/28/11 07:36 AM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: Flexman]  
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tagTaken2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Flexman
I've never had a perfect joystick though.



Sorry to hear that. My MSFFB2 would be one of the first things I would evac from the house during a fire.

Probably the first thing.

#3330695 - 06/28/11 08:36 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: tagTaken2]  
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Recklezz Offline
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Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
Originally Posted By: Flexman
I've never had a perfect joystick though.



Sorry to hear that. My MSFFB2 would be one of the first things I would evac from the house during a fire.

Probably the first thing.


God I hope you're not married...
If you are... I hope your wife doesn't read the forum deadhorse

#3331901 - 06/30/11 11:03 AM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Flexman Offline
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Originally Posted By: robnpat
Looking at a new controller when CH comes out and thought about the Logitech G940. I have the Logitech Extreme3D but want something different for CH. Any thoughts? I just can't wait for CH to be released, even in a Beta form copter


Just to announce we'll be adding the G940 and Extreme3D to the official list of supported joysticks.

I've just done some preliminary testing with both the Logitech Extreme3D and G940. The G940 is a surprisingly nice stick and throttle with the same rubberised feel as the older Saitek hardware. A really nice HOTAS for flying the Apache especially with the self-centring disabled. I'll be adding force-feedback support for the trim lock.


Richard - You Have Control
Tricubic Studios Ltd. (dev blog)
#3332246 - 06/30/11 08:11 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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robnpat Offline
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Excellent, Flexman! Think I will start saving my pennies now so I can get it when CH becomes available

#3332262 - 06/30/11 08:36 PM Re: Controller recommendations [Re: robnpat]  
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Raptor9 Offline
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Flex, I've never used a force feedback gaming stick (I have a Saitek X52). For flight sims that have force trim, when you engage the force trim, will the stick lock at it's current position like a real helo cyclic? Say if you're hauling a** at 130 knots, will the "force trim" hold the stick forward when engaged?

Or do these things just shake when you land or get shot at and stuff?


Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
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