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#3466995 - 12/02/11 07:50 PM Re: Helicopters in air to air combat [Re: Flyboy]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 3426
Originally Posted By: Flyboy
GrayGhost - Thanks for the info, but I never specified 'modern' AAMs, just so you know that I wasn't even pretending to cover the whole spectrum with my perhaps seemingly complete answer.

So as long as the rotors of a helicopter are spinning, it is possible for an AAM to lock on and act as an ASM? Cool, so that little 'quirk' in Longbow 2 where I was locking onto landed Hinds, Hips and Havocs with Stingers wasn't a game bug then!?


They'd still act like AAMs. AAMs can indeed have trouble hitting grounded targets, though the AIM-9X is apparently getting an A2G mode (basically you turn off the prox fuze and go contact only).
As for locking onto landed hinds - the LB2 radar locks onto tanks ... on the ground. No problem there wink

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Also if LB2 is anything to go by,


It isn't.

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no amount of fancy DIRCM, MAWS or ECM suites will do a sh*t the good,


MWS will detect the missile launch regardless of the type of guidance. DIRCM will blind the seeker if it's IR/IIRC (and I mean totally white it out), while ECM can deceive/blind radar seekers or guidance. There are some types of guidance that will not be affected by either probably, but those missiles can be defeated by other means oftentimes (usually just by having more range wink ). No system is perfect of course - ECM might not work, and DIRCM might miss, but in general both can be very effective, especially for a heli sitting in the clutter. Having said this, a strong SAM defense (we're not talking about an SA-8/9/13/15/19/22 here and there) is very nasty to helicopters.

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as it's the one who first gets a missile 'off the rail' that has the complete advantage.


That tends to be true, but it's a little different with respect to SAMs.

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And as a Stinger only has a range of around 5 or 6 Km, we all know how that ends up...


Against what though? You won't be engaging SAMs with stingers, and no other heli has a better ranged weapon for air to air work anyway.

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In any case, I'd hope that Western missiles/acquisition suites are the most advanced and that any potential Eastern enemy would be using less advanced or older generation missiles/acquisition suites that are less effective at picking out helicopters from ground clutter, etc. As long as an F-15C has an advantage, that's all that matters!


Depends. The eastern manufacturers are catching up, and the superiority gap is closing, and closing fairly fast. It doesn't mean that western kit isn't superior - often it is, but not at the mind-bogglingly wide range it used to be. In any case, really - any guy with a gun (and in this case, by guy we mean chopper) can pop out from behind a hill, surprise you, and make sure you end up having a really bad day. No advanced anything required.
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#3467613 - 12/04/11 04:41 AM Re: Helicopters in air to air combat [Re: GrayGhost]
Flyboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 3015
Loc: England, UK
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
As for locking onto landed hinds - the LB2 radar locks onto tanks ... on the ground. No problem there wink


I wasn't talking about the radar, obviously the radar would pick up a landed helo. If you'd read my comment properly you'd know that I meant the Stinger's onboard seeker. The FCR has no authority over how the Stinger functions, helicopters have been fitted and trialled with A2A missiles for years before fire control radars were even installed on them.

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Against what though? You won't be engaging SAMs with stingers, and no other heli has a better ranged weapon for air to air work anyway.


Against, um, enemy jet fighters and their missiles with ranges of 40+ Km! This topic is about 'Helicopters in air to air combat' after all! You brought up the whole thing about SAMs. And yes there is a possibility for a helicopter to have an air-to-air advantage over 5 or 6 Km - you must know that the Russian Vikhr can theoretically be used against helicopters, and that has a range of up to 10 Km?

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#3467702 - 12/04/11 07:58 AM Re: Helicopters in air to air combat [Re: Flyboy]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 3426
Originally Posted By: Flyboy
I wasn't talking about the radar, obviously the radar would pick up a landed helo. If you'd read my comment properly you'd know that I meant the Stinger's onboard seeker. The FCR has no authority over how the Stinger functions, helicopters have been fitted and trialled with A2A missiles for years before fire control radars were even installed on them.


It locks onto a heat source and has a contact fuze. Other than intervening obstacles, I don't see a problem.

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Against, um, enemy jet fighters and their missiles with ranges of 40+ Km! This topic is about 'Helicopters in air to air combat' after all! You brought up the whole thing about SAMs. And yes there is a possibility for a helicopter to have an air-to-air advantage over 5 or 6 Km - you must know that the Russian Vikhr can theoretically be used against helicopters, and that has a range of up to 10 Km?


You can pretty much forget about a heli having any sort of advantage over a fighter other than surprise, which -can- happen, but generally the helis are just in trouble. That might be a little different against CAS planes, depending on what altitude they fly at.

As for the vikhr ... a weapon that is more than likely easily defeated if you can see it coming and, if you have an MWS at least, or you know that there's a heli somewhere (either by own sensors or via data-link or reports), then you can take precautions. The same goes for stingers of course, but the difference is that a Vikhr can be out-maneuvered by a heli.
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#3468572 - 12/05/11 04:10 PM Re: Helicopters in air to air combat [Re: GrayGhost]
Avimimus Offline
Contributing Editor
Two-speed Five-Blade Fan
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/01
Posts: 2980
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Modern AAMs work just fine against helis. An F-15C is easily capable of picking up and classifying a helicopter that's landed, as long as the rotors are moving - from 40-50nm.


Didn't keep an F-15E from taking out a flying helicopter using an LGB... ah, the chaos of practical events.

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#3468591 - 12/05/11 05:03 PM Re: Helicopters in air to air combat [Re: brownba]
GrayGhost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 3426
That helicopter was landed, and that's why they used an LGB on it. It took off while the LGB was in-flight.
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