Completely disagree, If I need a story to be tell I would go for a movie or just take a book. In a game I create my own story. Don't understand all that "story" and campaign fixation. You got the editor and could make whatever story and campaign you would want just in a few minutes.
To be honest I have never feel any need of a "story" at all. In other games I prefer to be surprised with what I see on the screen and discover what is going on during the gameplay.
For a flightsim a "story" would be just a waste of resources. I need more planes, more details, more realism. In a word more content to explore. The content is what keeps my interest, not a story.

Umm, the only thing I can say to all of that, is you don't know much about IL2. There's soo many dynamic campaigns for both SP and MP available it would probably take 5 years just to play them all. If you are simply loading the game as it was patched, instead of downloading user created content, no wonder you have this idea in your head. There's no other flight sim ever made that has anywhere the amount of immersion (while flying) than what is available in IL2. If you expect it to be part of the game, sorry, but you're going to have to take that extra step and download a campaign to play. Dry is the last thing it is. But from what you are saying, you simply haven't explored the IL2 community.

As far as COD is concerned, we for instance, are running a map with over 300 AI bombers all doing different things (bombing targets etc.) tanks moving into positions, ships moving around etc. This is far more than you could've ever experienced in F4. Do you expect to take off and 5 seconds later have a contact to shoot at or something? I mean, do you need to be spoon fed everything? Then definitely, I agree, IL2 should not be your sim (either one) because all Oleg/Luthier has ever done is lay the foundation for people to build from. But it's such a good foundation that you can recreate w/e you want with it. And that's exactly what they've done with IL2 of old, and that's exactly what people are figuring out how to with IL2COD.

All I can say, no offense, is you really don't know much about IL2. Especially if you think there's more to do in the barren wasteland of ROF.

My thoughts exactly.

Never really thought that I'd need a story to enjoy IL2.
My fun and thrills always came when seated in the cockpit and 'flying' the game.
The fact that its still on my hard drive after all these years speaks volumes. I guess until CoD catches up with more theatres and aircraft it's due to remain there!
My biggest excitement and feel for 'being there', can only come from flying online with a group of chaps that I have flown with as a squadron, using tactics and methods we have all practiced and rehearsed.

Nobody is aksing for it to tell a story, ala Wing Commander for example. You are taking one minor quote from Para Bellum and turning it into his entire argument. The entire IL2 series had serious problems populating a world outside the waypoints. It took Lowengrins excellent DCG, or a lot of work by 3rd party campaign designers to populate the world in a realistic fashion. Unfortunately these worlds were still populated by utterly atrocious "all seeing" AI and the GUI was purely functional. Nothing from the mission/campaign design, the AI, the GUI or the breifings/de-briefings added to the immersion of the overall experience. As an offliner in IL2 you had to constantly fight the games lack of immersive qualities, right from the GUI to the actual gameplay.

Let me give you an very typical example of how a mission in IL2 played out.

Load game, be presented with a purely functional GUI that in no way provides atmosphere.
Read very, very basic briefing that doesn't give target/recon images, waypoint info, flight info or anything that would be deemed usefull. Just a basic, fly to here and kill stuff brief.
Watch friendly AI crash into a small hill on the way to the target.
If you deviate from the route you will be presented with vast emptyness.
Meet enemy AI and watch them fly in a fashion that defies physics/gravity.
Watch the enemy AI evade your every move like they had Spidey senses.
If you do survive fly home with a conga line of enemy aircraft chasing you.
Never once feel that you are invovled in a simulated war.

Cliffs of Dover suffers from the exact same problems. Flying the aircraft is nice, fighting the enemy leaves you with many, many WTF moments. Right now Cliffs of Dover is nice to fly around to admire the scenery, it is also OK for a quick skirmish. Anything larger than that is an excerise in frustration, you can't even command you own flight due to messed up radio commands. Technically very nice, no immersion or feel of being involved in any kind of large scale war.

It isn't like any of these concepts are new to flightsims, most of these issues weren't issue for sims 10+ years ago.

Technically CoD is a step forward re FMs/DMs etc. I believe that the devs think as long as that is there the rest is not needed, after all the community will do the rest... right?

God mate, I do hope they actualy let the community get involved.. it will benefit the game and WWII scene no end, and it's not like we have many other options to choose from either.

Thanks, you saved me the time typing exactly the same.

2005AD,

So in the real war, command gave you a fancy GUI and said "this is exactly where the enemy is going to be"? I don't think so. Most people had to patrol and many sorties ended up with not even spotting an enemy plane. A well written briefing tells you exactly what you need to know, in MP or SP. As far as immersion is concerned, the tools to make anything you want were right there in front of you. That's exactly what 3rd party did. There's soo many good SP and MP missions out there right now, it would take years just to be able to play them all. As far as the AI, you do realize they can and have been modded right? There's many different versions floating around for old IL2 that stop exactly what you are talking about.

Btw, how is the GUI suppose to provide atmosphere? Being in the cockpit is what provides the atmosphere and in IL2 that atmosphere is limitless. Why don't you hop into the IL246 FMB and count the # of objects or verities of objects that are at your disposal for virtually every theater of war. Name another sim that even comes close to this? Lets just say the # of objects in in the thousands upon thousands. Believe it or not, I know this is hard to grasp, but there have been people that actually use all those objects in missions! Who'd a thought eh?

How in the world did IL2 have any sort of problems populating the map outside of the waypoints? You do realize it has more objects allowed in a mission than any other flight sim ever made right? Have you really ever played a good 3rd party campaign? Or are you another poster that only played what OM/Luthier provided in the game? Is this the only forum you frequent? I mean, no sim is perfect, but what you are saying about IL2 makes me think you never really even played it or realized what is out there for it. Almost everything you said is either false or long fixed by 3rd party, except for the GUI thing which is only a briefing. Sorry if the immersion in IL2 only comes from flying in the flight sim it was made around. If I had some dumb GUI taking up GBs of my HD space I'd delete it.

So true! I think it's a Russian thing.

There is no GUI in a real war, fancy or otherwise, real life doesn't have GUIs, but games do, they may as well add to the experience.



Yes but flying off the deviated course in real life does not equal flying into the twilight zone. In a real war if you fly of the deviated course you will meet other air/ground assets doing their thing. This does not happen in Cliffs of Dover or unmodded IL2.



Indeed it does, unfortunately neither CoD or IL2 do this, you don't even get weather conditions, target/recon images or waypoint details.



Sorry but I am of the firm opinion that good, immersive missions and campaigns should be included with the sim. Not the pile of crap that was served with CoD, they essentially handed us a turd and said "polish this". From what I have read on many forums the majority agree.



I tried all of the modded AI and none of them helped that much if at all, no matter how much you polish a turd it is still a turd.



How did you go from the GUI to the "many wonderfull objects in the FMB"? The vast majority of people who purchased IL2 and CoD have zero interest in making their own missions and I am one of them. On the subject of the GUI go play EAW or SH3 to see how it is possible for a GUI to have atmosphere and immersion.



Again with the "IL2 has loads of objects in the FMB"... people don't fly in the FMB. I did play many 3rd party campaigns, once again all you prove is that you didn't read my post, or you would have deduced from this sentence that I did. "It took Lowengrins excellent DCG, or a lot of work by 3rd party campaign designers to populate the world in a realistic fashion". My issue isn't with the fact that it took 3rd partys to populate the IL2 universe, it was with the poor AI and lack of immersion and poorly done briefings etc. The devs have done exactly the same thing with Cliffs of Dover, handed us an empty vessel and asked us to fill it ourselves.

Now to get back on topic. The review was pretty much spot on, CoD deserves no more than 50% in its current state. It is an empty sterile world with very poor written and designed missions. Unfortunately it is first impressions that last.

Flying is the experience I bought a flight sim for.



Again, this sounds like you've never played any other missions besides the default ones. Many missions have objects, AI both on the ground and in the Air on every sq. km of the map.



What part about a good briefing don't you understand? Most of the briefings I have read tell you exactly where to expect the targets, grid coordinates, and so on. Do you really need a picture of a tank to be able to read the same line that says there's tanks in sector J13 in the briefing? Wow lol..



Ah, well I don't. I'm a firm believer that a sim should develop a platform that is able to create the war you are flying in. That's what makes a sim long lasting. Considering IL2 is both the most popular and long lasting (active) sim of all time, I'd say they hit the nail on the head for the majority of flight simmers. Lastly, I lose all immersion when I find out I'm flying against a robot. Again, just a difference of opinion.




Yeah, it's understandable. Robots aren't quite as smart as human beings (some of them anyways). If you don't want stupid AI, fly against a real human like real pilots did.



I guess this is another thing that went over your head. Atmosphere and immersion is created with recreating the map or mission you are flying in. These thousands of objects allow you to recreate any experience you want. And actually, IL2 has the biggest mission making community (3rd party) in any sim ever made. Another thing that just showcases what you can recreate with it. If you are flying in a "dry arena" the only person to blame is yourself.



Immersion comes from what is in a mission and what you see while flying. Yes the devs have done the same thing, thankfully. And because of their way of doing things, this will become as popular as the 1st one they made (the most popular sim of all time). If you didn't like the 1st one or the dry robot stuff you got with it in vanilla, you honestly thought that it was going to be different in the same team's next creation?

Hmm, I guess bad judgement on your part.

Ok. I understand you point of view, but I have totally different perception of an immersion factor. Things you mentioned look more like features of a kind of strategy game . A one that looks like a lot of bugs creeping on you screen. In such a game you generally have a pretty GUI, briefings, a lot nice images and even a cool intro movies that look great and take probably more money to develop than the game itself which looks ugly.
All those things are completely out of my interest. They rather irritate me. I generally skip all those briefings and intros. All I want from a GUI is a big "play" button and another smaller one for settings. That's all.

As regarding to empty scene I wonder did you see the editor in the game? If i want to play offline the first thing I do is creating a mission. I prefer my own one because I do not waste my time to study 3d party ones and because the mission creation is a part of a fun in the game. It's probably just came from a perception of a game as an entertainment where you take an active part rather than just watching like a movie. And CloD allows you to populate you scene for an extent never seen before.

I can agree with AI comments but where did you see a good AI in games? For a good AI you need to get rid of AI and play online with real people. The game perhaps needs a better, more modern on-line organization, elements of MMO game probably and it's the only my wish for better immersion factor.

Bliss,

I understand your points, no need to keep going over them. You feel the immersion is in the flying, fair enough. I and many others think it is the entire package that counts. you also keep mentioning how great the FMB is and the number of objects it contains. In my opinion this is pointless without decent gameplay mechanics to go with them. Right now Cliffs of Dover has limited gameplay elements and many missing or broken features that seriously reduce its ability to shine as an SP experience. Also the most popular and long lasting (active) sim of all time would be the MS Flight sim series, not one ounce of combat yet the userbase and popularity makes IL2 pale in comparison. Now if you meant combat sim then I agree but that doesn't mean IL2 was/is without major faults.

I flew with a few different squads in many online wars using IL2, they were great fun but time constraints no longer allows this. I do not want nor demand the ability to replicate this experience in SP, I just want some decent SP and CoD doesn't deliver in its current state. Ironically I found some of the dumbest things ever done was done by humans online, AI by contrast were rocket scientists

In response to Soaringbirds question, the best AI I have ever seen in any game or sim, is the AI in the latest patch for BoB2 WoV. Not once do they make me think WTF, that is not possible, there are plently of sweaty palm moments and they give a very good account of themselves without defying physics and reality. I still play BoB2 WoV on occassion but I would like to have the same experience in a sim with a better damage model and 2011 graphics. I was hoping CoD would come close, it doesn't. Only time will tell if Cliffs of Dover ever meets that criteria.

Bliss and Soaringbird, it is obvious that you are mostly (or even exclusively) online only types. That is your call, but constantly telling us SP only types to "go online to get a good experience", or "make it yourself using the FMB" is missing the point entirely. Some do not have the time, nor the inclination to do so, we should not be asked to fix the devs mistakes. Right now the Cliffs of Dover campaigns are a very shallow experience (leaving IL2 asside). They may be fixed by 3rd parties but that does not excuse the poor effort the developers put in to meeting our needs. Please, please, please don't say "but the FMB has loads of stuff to do it yourself", that is not the point. We bought Cliffs of Dover to fly, you know that part you claim is the most important part. We did not purchase it to learn a complicated FMB, just to make missions that we know exactly what will happen next.

You do realize that BOB2WoV is a SP only game? I would sure as hell hope they'd have made a huge developing step to the AI considering that's all you can fly against.

And noone is telling you to go online, we are just simply telling you if you want to have the feeling of flying against a real opponent, there's no better way than actually flying against a real opponent lol. And what does only having 1 hour or should I say little time have to do with playing online or not? Hop in a server, hit fly and you're off. MP is the easiest thing to do with little or no time. Not to mention the dynamic part of it, is built right in.

Btw, IL2's default campaigns and SP missions will always suck. I'm here to tell you that. So when the next expansion comes out, before you make 75 posts regarding how much they suck, please at least remember I warned you. This is something that is not going to change anytime soon.

About your point on making missions to know what is happening next. 1st you claim you need an awesome GUI to lead you by the hand with everything from intel and where things are going to happen, waypoints, and objectives so you are in the know. And in the next line you say by making a mission and knowing what's going to happen, takes the fun away? So in the 1st one you'd know what's going to happen by the brief or good gui as you say, and in the 2nd one, again you know what's going to happen because you make the mission. I guess there's no pleasing you.

And yes, you did buy it to fly. So did I. And I'm having a blast with it. Last night I hopped on the server with around 300 bombers all bound for various targets on both sides. Tanks and ships moving into position. Ground crews scurrying around. Planes taking off, radars bouncing intel all over the place. I just happened to get in the air before my field got devastated by 30 Dorniers. It was amazing and truly immersive.

And btw, both sims, the old and the new, are both called IL2.

It turns out there is no point debating with you, every single one of the points you make above has NOTHING to do with what I said. You keep adding your own interpretation on to my points, even when they are unambiguous.

I state BoB2 WoV has great AI. your reasoned response is... it's SP only so shouldn't be compared to IL2. How the hell is that relevant, you really do go to any lengths to defend CoD.

I state IL2 CoD stock missions suck and the devs should have done much better... you state so what that will always be the case, and I should accept it. Totally missing the point that this isn't bloody acceptable.

I state I want the offline campaigns to have immersion and decent AI with plenty going on.... somehow you went on a rant about how if I wanted to feel like I was flying against real opponents I should fly online. Again missing the point entirely.

I state briefings should give more detail and be more immersive... you take that to mean I want to know every single thing that is going to happen, how and when. Again you miss the point.

So in a game called a flight sim that ONLY has SP mode, you don't see that the devs of said flight sim would focus on the ONLY other planes you fight against more over on a flight sim that focuses more on the online human vs human aspect of it? I don't think I missed the point at all. But you seem to have.

I never said anything saying it shouldn't be compared to IL2. I suggest you read what I actually said. Just to repeat, a game with your only opponent as a robot, probably should make a pretty good robot. A game with the largest online community in the flight sim world, mainly focuses on the online community part. Do you understand, maybe partly now?

As far as the SP part it's always sucked. In 10 years worth of patching for original IL2 it always sucked. My point is if you didn't think the same team making a new sim wouldn't follow the same path after doing so for 10+ years, then it's your fault for not making the obvious connection. Moaning about it is not going to change it. They simply don't focus much on the SP part of the game, and simply never have. Hopefully you now understand that point. And for future reference, maybe if you continue to buy the IL2 series sims, you might finally be able to make the connection.

You stated you wanted a GUI that shows good intel with waypoints, recon photos, objects (basically you want a nice system that shows you what to do and where you need to go to do it - aka detailed reports / immersion) You also said making missions you'll know exactly what is going to happen which is why you don't like it. But yet fail to realize that doing both allows you to know exactly what to do or what's going to happen.

You're right, there is no point debating. Virtually all your moans and what you are crying about, are still there 10+ years in the 1st IL2. Maybe, just maybe, you can finally make the connection and realize they aren't going to change it any time soon. I don't feel sorry for people that simply can't add 2 + 2 together.

Yep, it's all our fault. Expecting the devs to actually improve upon a major feature of the game? Now that's just silly.

+1

Yeah it is pretty silly thinking that they are magically gonna improve SP considering for the last DECADE with IL2 they haven't.

Guys is he still talking bollox? I have him on ignore now, you know the saying.

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience".

His entire argument for total lack of any remotely decent single player content is "make it yourself", or "you expect too much", or "go online". Now we are getting the, "what did you expect" BS. He keeps trying to tell us it is our fault IL2 CoD sucks.