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#329067 - 09/22/03 12:39 PM How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
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Lifer

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I found that interesting...with our recent proposal for a new austrian Jet Fighter, Lockheed Martin fell trough because their F-16's dont provide a "Digital Moving Map". I suppose by that they want something similar to the NAV Page in the Janes F-18 Simulation - a topograpic map with waypoint overlays.

Now I thought something like that was fairly basic by now? Or did we just get offered a lower version of the standard gear?

Lockheed offered to add a gadget (some form of PDA) that would tie to a Pilot's knees but why is that not on any MFDs?

How does this sim model it?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#329068 - 09/22/03 07:02 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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BeachAV8R Offline
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Well..in Falcon 4 you have a knee-map, but it doesn't really give you much situational awareness unless you compare it to the waypoints that are displayed on the HUD.

For instance, here is a "map" of the waypoints on the right MFD, but as you can see it doesn't have geographical data such as rivers, towns, etc.. It does plot SAM sites, radar ranges and I think the FLOT..but it sure would be nice to hit a couple buttons and bring up an overlay that shows towns and airports!




BeachAV8R



#329069 - 09/22/03 07:25 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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Wildman Offline
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RS,
I've seen the "moving map" display. An actually film that moves keeping the aircraft in the center. Its pretty old technology, but could have been updates.

One of the problems I see in having it is the requirement for the large terrain database you would need to have.

#329070 - 09/22/03 09:09 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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jeroen Offline
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That would depend on how detailed you want it to be and how much terrain you want to cover.

And you don't need every aircraft to carry the complete database. You can extract the area of operations for a mission from the master database and download that to the plane.


2147483647 angels can dance on the point of a needle.
Add one and they will all turn into devils.
#329071 - 09/22/03 09:38 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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Wildman Offline
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My big question is why? Its not like the miliatary navigates with VFR rules on combat missions.

I just don't see the benefit, not that everyone needs F-16s, I just don't see the combat reason behind the requirement.

#329072 - 09/23/03 04:24 AM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  

**DONOTDELETE**
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Because every tool that you can have in the jet that enhances your SA is invaluable. Having a moving map makes it easy to verify your nav, shows you where those mountains are you can duck into if need be, etc etc. Moving map is a huge bonus in the cockpit, no doubt about it.

Chris

#329073 - 09/23/03 11:41 AM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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Harry-the-Ruskie Offline
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Colonel,

Taking a breather from FB ? Fancy meeting you in here.

I still find it somewhat amazing that someone like Lockheed Martin are not in a position to provide Digital Moving Map for the F-16s which led to the rejection by the Austrians.

I thought something like a DMM would be relatively simple to implement.

But then again, I wonder whether the Austrian rejection had anything more to do than with just DMM. One moving map (or lack of thereof) is hardly reason to can the whole deal.

HTR

#329074 - 09/23/03 11:42 AM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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I think the prime reasons for a moving map around here are BORDERS. We are not as small as Switzerland, but not as big as Germany either. Chasing an illegal overflight you could soon find yourself in foreign airspace which means now YOU are the illegal intruder ;\)

So, for the kind of job our Birds do, namely Airspace Control in a rather smallish airspace, a map with borders on it is worth a lot.

#329075 - 09/23/03 12:22 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:
...Airspace Control in a rather smallish airspace, a map with borders on it is worth a lot.
What I've never fully understood is why they can't/didn't/couldn't overlay the SA info and/or current positions onto a ground radar screen?

That seems easy to me. If you're flying and want the SA map info, just turn on the ground radar and ..voila!... instant SA map, right?

Why they don't/didn't do it is beyond me. And as to the F4 sim, you'll notice that the border between North/South Korea shows, right? Why not the whole map?

I actually thought all this time that my sim wasn't running correctly because I have "minimal" computer. Imagine my surprise after all this time to find out that NO ONE has that info! \:\)

Baron Max

#329076 - 09/23/03 03:42 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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It's just a matter of what the aircraft software is programmed to do. The F-16s, having older software, did not (do not?) have a moving map capability.

Software changes come around infrequently enough. It costs money and time, because the fleet will usually strive to have the same software in all the jets. That software must be relatively bug free and properly integrate into the rest of the jets functions. Also the mission planning computers must then also be updated to accomodate the change in the software. It's pointless to have a jet capable of displaying all the nifty circles and arrows if you don't have the proper workstation in the squadron to input it. I've seen a few squadrons that had mixed aircraft and mixed software. There's nothing more frustrating than reaching up to select an option on the MPCD and figuring out that they moved it to another page!

In the end, I seriously doubt that the lack of a moving map was the ONLY sticking point on the purchase. It was likely one requirement on the list and, after looking at the capabilities and limitations of the competition, the gov't decided that the Falcon didn't have everything they were looking for.

Deacon

EDIT: Also, don't forget that the cost of any modification is directly tied to the quantity bought. If they wanted a moving map, it certainly could have been so modified but at a high cost if the prime purchasers weren't willing to buy it too.

It's the reason that an F-16 costs 15-20 million but a Harrier costs 35 million. Far fewer Harriers bought...far more expensive.

#329077 - 09/23/03 03:45 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Quote:
Originally posted by Harry-the-Ruskie:
But then again, I wonder whether the Austrian rejection had anything more to do than with just DMM. One moving map (or lack of thereof) is hardly reason to can the whole deal.

HTR
Well, we wanted a Moving Map and a Radar in the 400 Mhz Frenqency Range, both were "Must meet" criterias the F-16 could not meet.

But I think the Rejection had more to do with the attidude Lockheed brought into the deal. In response to the first open request they sent a proposal with the general tune of "we have plenty for your little airforce", but when time came for a detailed offer they could A) not show the details of their new radar because of security reasons and B) were offering that knee-pad PDA for a map which was not even past prototype status. No one likes to buy the cat in the bag, and of course we wanted a big "We support european aircraft" sign.

I couldn't belive the story myself, so that's why I checked in here. Seems that the waypoints are there, just not the topographic or political overlay that would make it a "full map".

#329078 - 09/23/03 04:25 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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Harry-the-Ruskie Offline
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Deacon & Colonel,

I see your points.

Political considerations-wise, there is some of the trepidation of prospective purchasers when considering American hardware, especially Malaysia here considering that our outspoken Prime Minister (Mahatir) who frequently traded barbs with Washington (and he did so for good reason too, I might add). It is no wonder my country went for multi-nation sourcing. In the end we ended up with a 'salad' fleet of MiG-29, Bae Hawks and F/A-18s....and soon to be added into the fray a bunch of SU-30MKK and a trade-in on the Hornets for SuperHornets.

The thing with neighbouring Singapore is that they bought AMRAAMS for their F-16s but part of the condition of sale is that these must be kept outside Singapore until they are actually needed. That's what I read in a defence publication anyway. I don't know how true that is. Funny if it was true though LOL \:D

#329079 - 09/24/03 09:10 AM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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Durrie Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Baron Max:
And as to the F4 sim, you'll notice that the border between North/South Korea shows, right? Why not the whole map?
If you mean on the HSI its not the border, its the FLOT.

#329080 - 09/24/03 01:00 PM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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BlackLion Offline
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in the Cockpit of whatever I a...
S!

being Austrian myself, and also having just served my time in the Austrian MOD, where we came to read a lot of MOD internal memos, regarding the Tiffie purchase (this because it became nearly a legal issue, the CO of our AirForce being accused of having gotten bribed), I came to the conclusion, the Tiffie was chosen out of political reasons;
it seems the final tender was written in such a way, that only the Tiffie could fulfill it;
as the Colonel said, it had something to do with the "we buy a Euro plane" attitude but also with the offset deals, and certain Austrian companies, getting the best of them;

regarding the Moving Map issue;
I personally do not see any need for such a device in a pure interceptor plane;
our old Drakkens fly without such devices and the need for them to show country borders is quite a good idea, but rather irrelevant, as intercepts here are conducted under very strict GC and these guys are really good in telling our jet jockeys when to break \:D

Colonel, if you need a good introduction on how modern fighter and bomber planes navigate, fly and fight, try to get this book

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/18...8863165-6874115

BL


Experience of battle divides those who talk about nothing but the anticipation from those who talk about everything but the memory of it.
#329081 - 09/29/03 12:23 AM Re: How do real F-16'S navigate?  
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-E Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackLion:
it seems the final tender was written in such a way, that only the Tiffie could fulfill it;
This is not a phenomenon limited to your Air Force... it's quite common across the globe, and usually only brought up when there are losing bidders.


Loser is the opposite of winner.
Looser is the opposite of tighter.

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