These terms are casually bandied about, and mostly just accepted. Ridiculous. And applied to anyone who dare criticise this game. Ridiculous, and loaded from the outset. And it's mostly just accepted. Even more riduclous. But sometimes them's the cards you are dealt. SO....

How about a bit more invention, if you don't mind. Aren't we also reponsible for the decline and fall of the whole world, all evils and ills, and the annoying dusty bits at the bottom of the cereal box. I mean, give us our due

And in the interests of equality how about we call fans and people pro the game 'sycophants' or 'sikkos' for short? or 'Worshippers' (wusses) or 'Disciples'? (Dissers). About the same amount of in-build condescension.

Of course, you can't just criticise, you have to be a Hater or a Whiner, right?

Good man. Bad man. Good here. Bad there. I'm good. You're bad. Yes you is. No I'm not. Don't call me 'is'.

You couldn't make it up. But people do, quite a lot.

Ben (a hater and proud. You see this t-shirt? I hate it. Not really? oh, ok then...)

Indeed, but sorry I've missed your posts that actually refer to the game itself, but do look forward to reading these in the future

Morning, cap'n sarcasm...err, or afternoon, or evening

Well, I've posted quite a bit about the game, but you're selective reading has obviously edited that out. But not to worry.

And you forgot to call me a hater or a whiner, or preferably both.

And did you look up Keith Douglas or Isaac Rosenberg?

Ben

Whiner, and proud. If I accepted this sim on face value it would not be patched. The game industry needs somebody like me on the front lines complaining. You hate me but you can sleep at night knowing I am there. Hoo ahh

Let me know when hater or whiner reaches the level of arss-licker, and then we'll have an honest comparison.

I'm honestly not against criticism. I like to know what to expect, and what to avoid should I not be aware of certain things. I think most folks are like that, but when criticism turns to personal attacks against developers and fanatics (and it does... ) all positive discussion goes out the window.

Now if someone wants to be honest and say, "Yes, I'm criticizing the game. I'm also pi$$ed off and am #%&*$# at the developers with my comments" I'd be more supportive of whiners. The confusion arises when whiners think that derogatory comments are the same as criticism.

All that doesn't mean to say I'm not guilty of the assertions. We're all human and things we love we take to heart. Simming is a hobby many enjoy with great passion. Passion can lead to over emoting. It's a game, and despite that passion folks (me included) would do well to remember that. After all, I don't know you - nor you me, but we all deserve the respect we'd carry ourselves with as if we were talking face to face.

No, no my post was not meant as a threat Ben, I'm just saying I've missed your posts that refer to the game.

See Ben, the reason I am member here is because I like playing games, not to do battle with other SimHQ members.

I don't know what your critiques are; FM, DM, AI, but I bet I would not disagree with them.

Enjoy!

The derogatory comments are funny and usually based in part on the truth. As long as they are directed at the sim and not people its part of the fun and the reason I surf this board

You've spent the last day or two doing a remarkably good impression of someone who is here precisely to do battle with another SimHQ member.

Bisher, I've been playing games since Falcon 3 and Red Baron 1.

As you well know, I haven't bought this, and very glad I haven't. WOuld I buy it in the future? Maybe. Would I spend on the serious upgrade needed to play it now? Not on your nelly. Does this disable me from commenting? Nope. I can mostly see what bits work, and what bits dont, from the posts here and elsewhere. And which bits aren't even there to begin with. And I can see where people refuse to accept even these basic facts. What's the point of discussing the finer points with people who wont even agree which way is up, and which way is down?

Several hundred posts bear this out, from people's whose opinion I have time for. When you have the devs themselves talking about cut features, you dont really even need the corroboration provided by gamers. But it's there anyway, just in case you think a decent campaign may have been sneaked in, or dynamic weather etc, and we hadn't noticed. It is obvious to the point where I dont need to upgrade and buy to find out.

One thing I do like: the cockpit self-shadowing, some of the details.

One thing I dont like: being labelled a hater (a stupid, vindictive, pre-emptive, perjorative and juvenile term) by people who exhibit preciesly those characteristics, but because they are on the fan or pro- side, think it doesn't apply to them. It does. I include you in that category, and others, including some Mods. Iy would be laughable if it weren't so, well, sad. It's like a mad cult. You sort of have to go outside for air occasionally Then you can see up is up , and down is down...:)

Ben

Totally agree Mahoney, I hope to focus on the game from here on out. Of the ten years I've been a member here , I've only spent maybe six months of that time in heated debate with fellow members

No Ben I had no idea you have not purchased the game.

Yes forum polorization seems to be a phenom that is not necessariy representative of the individual, rather a larger event that sucks the individual in. I feel the frustration as you do.

I'm totally disappointed about the features that were not implimented into the game as well

Good, then dont fall prey to the 'Freycinetting' of forum members as haters or whiners simply because they are against the game in its present form.

Back to the game. Now, where was I? Oh yes, saying why it stinks...

Let's hope the stink dies down. If it doesn't then I just hope it goes away as quickly as possible, and people are not dragged into something that may not (probably wont, in fact) materialise. Part me of thinks it's already way too late for this game in all sorts of ways.

Ben

Do you want cheese with that?

I think the playing field is far from level. Business comes first. "Whiners" and complainers are by definition anti-business. In concept they are considered a forum evil to be tolerated at best. Business people will find ways to make them uncomfortable. If a "whiner" can be tricked or goaded into breaking a forum rule the odds are probably against the "whiner's" survival. The booster can then go after the next complainer in line. Viewed from that perspective it becomes easier to ignore booster insults. For boosters the jaws of death may have rubber teeth. I agree with those forum members and other viewers who are of the opinion that gamers cannot win if they succumb to fear mongering and only buy CoD in hope of keeping the genre alive. Every post touting the product's potential warrants the disclaimer that no one knows whether the developers will receive the funds to make long term improvements to CoD. Further, we have no way of knowing whether staffing is adequate to make substantive changes if indeed major changes in gameplay quality are feasible.

Dear Haters and Whiners,

Despite all the mooing and whining and the "there will never ever be another WWII simulator, ever and it's all your fault you ungrateful bastards" posts, I find myself agreeing with a lot of the criticism. From what I've seen, watched, read and heard, this is nothing more than a tarted up half functional IL2/46 with some added bells and whistles. Same warts (AI, pop up buildings) and many of the same limitations (high altitude performance) because it certainly looks like the same freaking game engine or a very close derivative. I can't stomach the accusatory bleating of the "fanboys" and the constant nitpicking from the "Haters and Whiners" is getting almost as tiresome. Guys, we don't need a new post every day telling us the same stuff is broken over and over...We get it. It just pisses of the natives...I know practically nothing works right and there's not much content except the all important multi-player. I hope there are enough on line players to keep it afloat, because there's precious little else there unless you like simulating cockpit shadows and practicing CEM (which may or may not work properly). Frankly, there isn't enough there for me to plunk down full price money for it. I am not interested in having the modders, God bless them all, put all the content in the game that should have been there in the first place. It's not their job to finish someone else's job...But at least the lorries have license plates.

While were at it, I have seen a lot of posts about "you don't remember the early days of IL2, it was just as bad". I was and no. No it wasn't. I could install it on the machine that I owned and it actually WORKED!!! Framerates weren't great on my PIII, but I could fly it and kill things. Over land even!

Here here..That stuff about IL2 being just as bad in the early days is just Freycinetting (Falstaff term) propaganda.

Original IL2FB was at least 90% done. CoD is more like 46% done.

I remember eleven hours to download the Il2 demo, twice to get a working copy. I remember feeling awestruck sitting in my P39 in the rain then damaging a Ju88 and realizing I could watch in external view as the crew bailed out. Those moments created an incredible level of belief in OM. With CoD there is no where near that level of enchantment. It is not ten years better than Il2. There is no way that disappointment will not continue to sting as more and more gamers come to realize that fact.

Odd, I've been able to fly and kill things in CoD since patch one, maybe I'm imagining it or it's user error.

+3 Never had a problem with my PIII 800, NVIDIA GF2 and 256MB on WIN98 the game was more than playable with the correct settings

I loved the Il-2 demo. Spent hours trying to hit the tanks with RS-82s in the field by Chepelynka on the Smolensk map in the Il-2. I was very impressed with being able to switch to the Il-2 gunner's position and have the AI fly the plane, and then shoot off the elevators and rudder. And the original Il-2, in the early days. It was miles ahead of anything else in areas like the damage model, the accuracy of the flight models (at least, in the lower-altitude environment the Il-2 lived in), the AI... and the subject was fascinating. I really enjoyed learning about the Eastern front through Il-2.

I don't know whether CloD is a good sim or not - for me it is moot. I have a 3ghz single-core Pentium 4 with an AGP graphics card, and no prospect of replacing it any time soon!