Hi. It's my first time writing on the forum but I've read a number of discussions and have been very impressed by the collective knowledge of this group.

I'm facing a bit of a dilemma that I could use some advice on. The question is where I should upgrade my PC (specs below) or to buy a brand new one.

I recently bought IL2: Cliffs of Dover, and would love to be able to enjoy it closer to it's maximum potential (bugs not withstanding) within a reasonable budget.

My current setup is as follows:

Dell Dimension 9200 (detailed specs here : http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim9200/en/sm_en/specs.htm)
Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz (L2 Cache, 4M shared, 65 nm)
Nvidia GT 250
3 GB Ram (DDR2, 667MHZ)
375W power supply.
1900 x 1200 display


2 years ago, when I upgraded to the GTS250 from the stock 7900GS, it made my computer feel like an entirely new one. This system does a great job on games such as dawn of war 2, RUSE, Silent Hunter 5, Wings of Prey on close to max settings at 1900 x1200.

However, il2 cod (with beta patch 2) crawls on this system, and while I recognize that there ar still quite a number of performance issues that need to be addressed, I am seeing a number of reports of people with higher end systems finally being able to enjoy the game.

Option 1: Upgrade
Like I did 2 years ago, i can just upgrade the GPU but I recognize that my power supply no longer cuts it so i would replace it with a unit that can supply 500-600 Watts and buy something like a AMD 6850 or comparable NVIDIA.

Expected cost:
$200 for 6870
$60 for 500W PSU from Dell (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=A1311579&baynote_bnrank=1&baynote_irrank=0&~ck=baynoteSearch)
------
$310

Benefits (much cheaper - I could even get more expensive GPU, but does not upgrade the CPU)



Option 2: Replace

Example system from Cyberpower

Intel® Core™ i5-2500K 3.30 GHz 6M Intel Smart Cache LGA1155 (All Venom OC Certified)
[CrossFireX] GigaByte GA-P67A-UD3-B3 Intel P67 Chipset DDR3 ATX Mainboard w/ 7.1 HD Audio, GbLAN, USB3.0, 2x SATA-III RAID, 2 Gen2 PCIe, 3 PCIe X1 & 2 PCI [B3 Stepping]
4GB (2GBx2) DDR3/1600MHz Dual Channel Memory Module (Corsair or Major Brand)
AMD Radeon HD 6850 1GB GDDR5 16X PCIe Video Card [+142] (Major Brand Powered by AMD)
600 Watts - XtremeGear Power Supply - SLI/CrossFireX Ready
1TB SATA-III 6.0Gb/s 64MB Cache 7200RPM HDD (Single Hard Drive)

Expected cost:
$931

Benefits: More expensive, but future proof


What do you all think? How much does a newer CPU matter for gaming? Is there any incompatibilities I should know about?

Nothing is future proof. LOL

3rd option (what I'm doing): Upgrade into a new system over a few months, take the time to shop each part and get the best you can.

Month 1: Buy a case, good cooling system
Move your current pc into the new case, might as well use it.

Month 2: Upgrade your power supply to about 600 watts, get new graphics card. Start using them. I'm thinking ATI 5870, seems the best for the money, ~$200

Month 3: Motherboard

Month 4: CPU

Month 5: Memory

Just use the dvd drive you have now if it works well.
Combine steps as budget allows. I'm looking to spend around $7-750 total.

Replace entire system would be the thing. Investing money in that Dell would be a waste with it's DDR 2 memory. Also a power supply from Dell that's rated at 500W would be questionable to me.

I tend to buy Mobo/CPU/Ram all together, that way I can assemble, test and RMA anything that has an issue, if you order one, wait 30 days, order another, wait 30 days and order another, by time you get it assembled and burnt in the RMA doors on 2 of the 3 components are already closed.

A low cost step by step could start with a GPU -- e.g. HD5870 at about $200 (will equal or exceed HD6870). See if that does it for you.

If not, go for a new CPU, MB, memory, PSU, case: Should add up to about $500 if one shops sales and buys good stuff. Being an AMD/ATI fan, I suggest AMD/ATI for the best value -- but Intel is OK if overclocking is important to you

Total with GPU about $700.

But, if one wants to avoid building it one's self, then add $100 for a hard drive and optical drive and $100 to $150 to get it assembled with a warranty -- close to the price of the system you identified

The only further upgrade on the above options (that makes sense to me), is moving up to an HD6970 GPU and an extra hard drive for backups.

P.S. Depending on your timeframe: The all new AMD Bulldozer CPU is due in July (it is rumored).

Good point there Skate.

Thanks everyone.

Allen - I haven't been tracking the GPU market for a while but I did check Tom's hardware and used the chart below to pick the card. I tend to run my games at 1900x1200 since that's my monitor's native resolution and picked that specific example to check on the comparative performance.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2011-...siast,2668.html

Guess I'm a little confused about AMD's numbering system? Why does the 5870 exceed 6870? Wouldn't it be the other way around. Though after you mentioned that, I did check the charts and the 5870's are right up there in performance with the 6870's.

Nothing against AMD/ATI - but I've remember seeing quite a number of threads on ATI's having some graphical anomaly or the other (now mind you, this is purely an anecdotal, nothing I can prove). But looking at that chart, it looks like the ATI cards are up there (and I think they come with more VRAM at the same price point that Nvidia as well?)

Anyway, I think I'm leaning towards the GPU upgrade first. If that doesn't work, I can always use that in the next system - no harm done.

@Speedbump - The reason I looked at the Dell PSU is that I don't want fit issues with the PSU that I'm going to likely have with aftermarket companies.

I'm not sure about that numbering system either, best just to look at the reviews like you're looking at and compare each one to your budget.

As for the PS, that's pretty standardized. I'd just go with one from Newegg or Tigerdirect. Compare the measurements, but you'll be fine.
NEWEGG

I see a Coolmax there for a good price plus a mail in rebate.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...9-055-_-Product

You can do well for under $60 and get a 600 watt for a little headroom but without going overboard.
Pay attention to the connectors, it's nice not to have to use adapters all over the place to get set up how you want.

Thanks. Now I'm getting excited about this project. Been a while since I've been inside my PC's innards.

Logically, it should be as you say. However, AMD/ATI changed their numbering system with release of the HD6xxx series. Its the HD6970 that is the new upgrade to the older HD5870 (and out performs it in most cases). The HD6870 is not quite up to the HD5870 in many cases. As you note, 2GB of graphics memory is an improvement over 1GB at very high resolutions. But, 1GB will do the job up to and including 1920x1200 -- unless one wants to run very high AA, like 8X or more at high resolutions (I run 0AA as I don't find it needed at such high resolutions). Actually, I run Eyefinity at 5760x1200 0AA with no memory issues I know of.

FWIW, the HD6xxx and Nvidia GTX5xx series are 40nm fabrication "stopgaps" put in place because the 32nm fabrication process failed (at their mutually used chip fabricator) and is being replaced with a 28nm process. The GPUs for 28nm have "taped out" and await the 28nm fabrication process to be cost competitive. Likely, the 28nm GPUs will release this Fall or later. So, some of us went with HD5870 for about $200 (for the heck of it I bought 2 for Crossfire at that price) -- saving our cash for the HD7xxx or GTX6xx this Fall, or later.

Tom's Graphics card comparisons and CPU comparisons are about as complete and "objective" as one can find. So, using them to help decision making is good.

If you use 1 GPU, a 600W PSU is plenty. I would plan to get a "quality" (not no-name) 600 to 650W on sale for $50 to $65 at Newegg (I got a 650W and mine runs the Crossfire system below -- loads of everything in the case).

Excellent. Thanks for explaining that to me. Remind me to ask you about motherboards when I'm building my system I find the entire mobo designation system extremely confusing as well.

Ok,

I think I'm about to pull the trigger on the following but I wanted to do a quick last minute check.

HIS H687F1G2M Radeon HD 6870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card with Eyefinity
$199.99

COOLER MASTER Silent Pro M600 RS-600-AMBA-D3 600W ATX12V V2.3 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Bronze Certified Modular ...
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
$79.99

Total comes to $279


Side note:
Two questions

6870 vs 5870 - Allen, I know you recommended the 5870 instead. But after a little googling, it seems a number of the 5XXX series cards have problems with the RAM causing GSOD. Any thoughts on this? I don't seem to find the same number of folks talking about the same problem with the 6XXX series.

I have a Dell XPS 410/Dimension 9200 with a standard ATX PSU rated at 375W and I'm concerned about the hew PSU fitting properly, but there seems to be no way to figure that out online.

What do you think?

The screen of death was nominally a driver problem. In owning two HD5830 and two HD5870, I never had the problem. In fact, I never had a problem with a single-card installation. Crossfire will not play a few games and there is a minor infrequent issue with the "pointer icon" in Eyefinity.

Still, the HD6870 is nearly equal in performance. So, at the same price, its not dumb to get the newer version -- or older version -- one just does what "feels right" by their personal criteria.

I see a 24 hour special -- HD6870 for $180 delivered after rebate.

HD6870 $180

If you must spend $200, consider spending $210 delivered after rebate for the HD6950 -- much more card than HD6870 -- some HD6950 can be unlocked to give an HD6970 (don't know if this sale priced one can).

HD6950 24 hour sale $210

I think I would grab that HD6950 and not look back

Here's a 650W XFX PSU (identical to mine which runs the beefy system in my signature) at $59 delivered after rebate (its single rail which is what you want):

XFX 650W single rail

These are all things I would buy without blinking But, I can't guarantee you won't get a bad one -- just RMA it if you do

Thanks for the recommendations.

Some more questions.

1. Feedback on Newegg indicate the 6950 runs hot. I'm not running any aftermarket cooling systems and don't intend to. Do you expect this would be an issue

2. The 6950 says it needs two 2 x 6 pin for power. The XFX PSU says it has 1 x 6-Pin, 3 x 6+2-Pin. Are they compatible?

And one more question (this one is out there, so it's ok if you can't help me with this one).

The fan on this XFX PSU is on the top while the one on my PSU is on the side. To ensure the PSU fan gets fresh air, I guess I would mount it reverse from how it's shown on the website so that the fan is facing down?

My PSU

1. Yes, XFX (I have XFX HD5830) seems warmer than Sapphire at a similar price. But, it doesn't run "hot". The fan will keep it in the safe zone. Moreover, XFX gives a "double lifetime" warranty. So, little risk. I think XFX is a good brand -- but, in tough times, they are one of the first to cut prices

2. Yes, you have 4 6-pin and could run Crossfire if you wanted to (I do run Crossfire with my XFX PSU). The 6+2 functions as both a 6 pin and an 8 pin.

The XFX can be flipped both ways in a normal case. Your screw pattern seems almost normal. There is a slight difference in the screw slot shape. But, I can't be sure from the picture.

Thing is, virtually all (don't know if literally all) after market PSUs have the same screw points as the XFX. I.e. they're all the same. So, XFX is not a disadvantage there.

Worst case, drill another hole in the case if needed (assuming screws are the only fit issue).

Very worst case, buy a new case -- $40 to $90 depending on sales and what you want.

P.S. If you benchmark the XFX HD5830, and get the GPU to 100 percent for a while, the fan speeds up and goes from essentially silent/quiet to noticeable -- but, not loud to my ears. I assume the HD6950 might be the same. However, no question to me, I'd get it for $210 -- but, that's me.

AMD Changed the Model#s for the 6000 series to add more Teirs. They Added another Lower Level Tier aimed at low priced units.

These are Discreet Tiers only and doesnt count "Mobile SKUs"

in the 5000 Series We have:

Value Tier:
Radeon HD 5450

Low Tier:
Radeon HD 5550
Radeon HD 5570

Mid Tier:
Radeon HD 5670
Radeon HD 5750
Radeon HD 5770

High Tier:
Radeon HD 5830
Radeon HD 5850
Radeon HD 5870

Performance Tier:
Radeon HD 5870 X2 Dual GPU
Radeon HD 5970 Dual GPU
(Note, the 5970 is 2 5870 GPUs Stripped and downclocked, whereas the 5870X2 is two Full 5870 GPUs at 5870 Spec), So even though its numbered Higher the 5870 out performs it.)




For the 6000 Series we have:
(Based on performance of the 5000 series)
Value Tier:
Radeon HD 6450 (New Tier)

Low Tier
Radeon HD 6570 (Replaces 5450)

Mid-Low Tier
Radeon HD 6670 (Replaces 5670)
Radeon HD 6790 (Replaces 5750)

Mid Tier:
Radeon HD 6850 (Replaces the 5770, with 256Bit memory Interface)
Radeon HD 6870 (Replaces the 5830)

High Tier:
Radeon HD 6950 (Replaces the 5850)
Radeon HD 6970 (Replaces the 5870)

Performance Tier:
Radeon HD 6990 (Dual GPU) (Replaces the 5870x2 / 5970)


As for Temps, My Brother's XFX 5830 Runs 40 Idle in a warm room, and Peaks at 65.... .. @65% Fan Speed.


for comparison, my eVGA 8800GTS Idles at 55-60^C and gets above 75^c sometimes. at MAX fan speed.

I'd think the 6000 Series would run cooler than the 5000 series.

That's great and yes, based on the die size of the two cards, I would assume the 5XXX would run hotter as well.

@Allen - Ok - Just ordered both your recommendations on Newegg. Thanks for all your help. Now, if Il2 COD could just add a dynamic campaign ala BOB2, I think I would never leave the computer.

Did you measure to be sure that card will fit? Those things are very long and may be tight in a case like that.
Keep in mind that it will be double wide (2 slots) so be aware of any card you may need to shift around, and if your SATA cables are behind that slot, you may need to get some shallow right angle connectors to be able to clear the card.
Measure that length in particular.

Good thinking. I don't have any other cards on the slots and my current GTS 250 is about 9" long (while I think the 6950 is 11.5").

The good thing is, there's nothing the case is open across the entire length where the GPU slots in so I think I should be fine.

I looked it up later on, it's a much bigger case than I was picturing. A lot of space in there and didn't look like anything plugging in in the way.
I've got that GTS 250 and it was a nervous experience fitting it in my old Gateway case that first time. LOL

So update on how my upgrade on the PSU & GPU are going.

The PSU installed fine without any problems. The XFX 650 Watt PSU is the same width but slightly longer in length. Wasn't a problem since my dell dimension 9200 case is pretty big. The cable protectors are a little bulky though and I wish they could have been flat - but no biggie.

However, I'm running into a whole bunch of headaches with the XFX 6950 1GB GPU.

1. DVI outputs don't seem to work. I get a no-signal on my monitor. The monitor only has VGA and 2 HDMI's and I was using a VGA to DVI converter which worked perfectly. Switching to HDMI works but not having functioning DVI output on my card is a no-go.

2. BSOD while trying to install catalyst drivers. Every single time. A little searching on the web found folks recommending I use drivesweeper which I did use - but after every reboot, drivesweeper still shows a bunch of Nvidia entries. I've used CCcleaner to clean the left over registry entries.

I had to head to work, but I'll have to go home and figure out what's causing all these issues.

Sorry to read things aren't smooth sailing.

Hopefully, there is no actual hardware issue with the DVI from the GPU. Rather, its a monitor issue or driver issue. But, time and trouble shooting will tell.

One thing to check: Is it the correct driver package? Probably you got this right. But, when there is a problem its easier to start with the obvious. There are several to choose from. Most prominent are Windows 64b Vista/Win7, Windows 32b Vista/Win 7, and Windows 32b Win XP. They are all different -- XP does not support some advanced features. You probably need 32b XP?? FWIW, until last year we still had 32b XP on some of my extended family's computers and used ATI HD graphics cards without issue -- since a few months ago, its been Vista and Windows 7. Actually, now that I think of it, one grandson still has 32b XP and uses an ATI HD3870 -- constantly

You are on track with the idea of removing old drivers. Old drivers were an issue with XP. In particular, conflicts between old Nvidia and ATI drivers were common when switching manufacturers. Many of us had that headache one time or another. Though you are not at wits end yet, sometimes the only cure is to backup important stuff, reformat the hard drive, and reinstall Windows, and reinstall all drivers -- to get a clean start. But, one needs the latest drivers in hand -- first.

Also, check the connections. Re-seat the card in the slot, be sure the 6pin power plugs are completely seated. Try the other DVI port -- there is a preferred DVI port (it may matter when converting to a VGA output). I presume you are using the DVI to VGA converter supplied with the HD6950 in the XFX box.

On two of our home computers, we use an HDTV/monitor as a monitor. Both HDTV/monitors have VGA, DVI, and HDMI. We prefer to use the HDMI with the monitors -- and it seems fine. So, HDMI per se is not bad. Rather, you have to figure out if you got a bad card (lacking working DVI). Not convenient, but if there is an available DVI input monitor to simply try the DVI, that might save some time.

Jumping right to Windows 7 is not recommended (even though its a great OS) because old computers usually have some hardware that is incompatible -- yet another problem that you don't want (I went through it moving from XP to Vista).

You need to be using a DVI to HDMI cable. Don't involve VGA anywhere, that reduces you to VGA capabilities and limits you. Be sure you've hooked the card up to the power it needs, it's not just dropping in a slot.

As for the drivers...it shouldn't be that difficult, are you having any other issues?
Go directly to the ATI site and get the latest driver for that card and try again.

If you just can't get the nvidia driver uninstalled, it could be due to using these other means and it has upset the uninstall ability by losing components of it. I'd reinstall the nvidia driver, then uninstall properly through the card's properties in the device manager. and go to the control panel to uninstall programs and uninstall any nvidia software that is still showing, like the 3D business etc.

Try installing the ATI card's driver and see how it is. Again, DVI to HDMI cable. Cheap on Amazon, Tigerdirect or any of the usual sources. Get rid of anything VGA, it's holding you back.

Thanks Allen. My comments are inline below.

///

Sorry to read things aren't smooth sailing.

Hopefully, there is no actual hardware issue with the DVI from the GPU. Rather, its a monitor issue or driver issue. But, time and trouble shooting will tell.

One thing to check: Is it the correct driver package? Probably you got this right. But, when there is a problem its easier to start with the obvious. There are several to choose from. Most prominent are Windows 64b Vista/Win7, Windows 32b Vista/Win 7, and Windows 32b Win XP. They are all different -- XP does not support some advanced features. You probably need 32b XP?? FWIW, until last year we still had 32b XP on some of my extended family's computers and used ATI HD graphics cards without issue -- since a few months ago, its been Vista and Windows 7. Actually, now that I think of it, one grandson still has 32b XP and uses an ATI HD3870 -- constantly

* I actually upgraded to win7 a while back so that's what I'm running right now. Hope that's not going to be an issue. Can't budge on that.

You are on track with the idea of removing old drivers. Old drivers were an issue with XP. In particular, conflicts between old Nvidia and ATI drivers were common when switching manufacturers. Many of us had that headache one time or another. Though you are not at wits end yet, sometimes the only cure is to backup important stuff, reformat the hard drive, and reinstall Windows, and reinstall all drivers -- to get a clean start. But, one needs the latest drivers in hand -- first.

* Definitely would like this to be my last resort. If only because I can't ever seem to properly back up all the save game files for all my games - always end up having to start from scratch.

Also, check the connections. Re-seat the card in the slot, be sure the 6pin power plugs are completely seated. Try the other DVI port -- there is a preferred DVI port (it may matter when converting to a VGA output). I presume you are using the DVI to VGA converter supplied with the HD6950 in the XFX box.

* Definitely seated properly (rechecked a number of times). I thought I tried both DVI ports, but I'll try again tonight. I know there's supposed to be a primary and secondary port. I am not using the DVI to VGA connector that came with the card (haven't actually looked for it) since I had one from before.

On two of our home computers, we use an HDTV/monitor as a monitor. Both HDTV/monitors have VGA, DVI, and HDMI. We prefer to use the HDMI with the monitors -- and it seems fine. So, HDMI per se is not bad. Rather, you have to figure out if you got a bad card (lacking working DVI). Not convenient, but if there is an available DVI input monitor to simply try the DVI, that might save some time.

* My monitor is actually a HDTV (similar to yours) with 2 HDMI & 1 VGA connection. On my previous attempts to use HDMI, I was less than impressed with the image quality and switched to VGA which was much better. I don't mind using HDMI but I definitely don't want to hold on to a defective card.

Jumping right to Windows 7 is not recommended (even though its a great OS) because old computers usually have some hardware that is incompatible -- yet another problem that you don't want (I went through it moving from XP to Vista).

* see above.

=

Do consider using the DVI/VGA connector supplied by ATI -- rather than the old one.

I had a problem with a simple cable just a couple weeks ago. Did not use the one that came in the box -- used one I had been using previously (without problems). Could not believe that was the problem (as there are no active components in the cable -- just wire -- and, oh yes, a simple "choke" element). After trying everything else, I changed the cable as a last resort -- it was the problem

Hey Raw Kryptonite,


You need to be using a DVI to HDMI cable. Don't involve VGA anywhere, that reduces you to VGA capabilities and limits you. Be sure you've hooked the card up to the power it needs, it's not just dropping in a slot.

* Never had good luck with HDMI in terms of image quality. Always looks worse to me than VGA. Card is definitely powered up since it does display with HDMI albeit in the default 1024 x 768 resolution that you get before installing catalyst drivers. However, in trying to install catalyst drivers, I get BSOD's every time.

As for the drivers...it shouldn't be that difficult, are you having any other issues?
Go directly to the ATI site and get the latest driver for that card and try again.

* Did that - BSOD's every time It starts installing.

If you just can't get the nvidia driver uninstalled, it could be due to using these other means and it has upset the uninstall ability by losing components of it. I'd reinstall the nvidia driver, then uninstall properly through the card's properties in the device manager. and go to the control panel to uninstall programs and uninstall any nvidia software that is still showing, like the 3D business etc.

* Ok - I'll try that.

Try installing the ATI card's driver and see how it is. Again, DVI to HDMI cable. Cheap on Amazon, Tigerdirect or any of the usual sources. Get rid of anything VGA, it's holding you back.

* Radioshack will have this I'm assuming. It's one the way back to home for me.

Great news - everything works.

Got home and did the catalyst install and it worked perfectly. HDMI output still looked terrible. Didn't properly detect size of the window, fonts looked wierd etc.

So I tried switching the input from HDMI to the other DVI port and it worked. Perfect.

Playing IL2 COD at 30-40 FPS over water - everything high except land, forest and shadows turned off (holy crap - its beautiful - especially impressive given that I'm playing it on a 6 year old computer with C2D 6600 CPU and 3gigs of ram).

Definitely worthwhile upgrade. I'm able to play every game I have on the highest setting.

Thanks for all your help Allen & Raw Kryptonite.

Whew!

Glad to read things went as initially expected

You got a good card and PSU. You should be set for a couple years plus on GPU and maybe longer on PSU. If you do get the CPU upgrade bug, you won't need to change the GPU or PSU

Glad you got it sorted out!