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#3260648 - 04/05/11 10:11 AM Re: Another new system post [Re: SkateZilla]
Allen Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/13/99
Posts: 4748
Loc: Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Originally Posted By: Allen
...I have my two 110CFM fans set to half speed (I suppose that might mean one-quarter CFM) -- i.e. about 55CFM (but, that's a guess)...


TBH I dont see how a Push/pull doubles the CFM ...


Maybe it doesn't smile

I distinguish between two fans with nothing between them and two fans with narrow cooler-slots between them.

A single fan on a CPU-cooler must accelerate the air from a stand-still and into air that is standing still (in the way of the new air). Moreover, the cooler slots provide "friction-like" resistance that must be overcome. The net result is that a 56CFM fan on a CPU-cooler does not actually provide 56CFM. I would not be surprised if it provided less than half that in "genuine" air flow through the cooler.

With push-pull the second fan helps move the dead air out of the way of the exhaust (by providing the push at that point). It also provides pull that creates a "partial vacuum" between the narrow blades of the CPU-Cooler that reduces the friction-like resistance. All this help adds up. To what exactly, I don't know. One would need accurate engineering airflow measurements. However, I would not be surprised if the "genuine" airflow were increased to nearly double the original amount -- remembering that the original amount might have been half the fan's rating.

Just some thoughts. Maybe someone has made good measurements and published them on line somewhere.

Anyhow, push-pull with two 56CFM fans definitely lowered the temperature vs one 56CFM fan in my experiment. I got pretty much the same temperature with two 56CFM fans as with one 110CFM fan. But, two 56CFM were quieter than one 110CFM. At the end of the day, regardless of the actual CFM being pumped, the system operated as though two fan CFMs were additive (in my small experiment).

The above is not being sold as absolutely true in an engineering sense. Its just my "hand waving" explanation for what I observed.
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#3260678 - 04/05/11 10:32 AM Re: Another new system post [Re: Allen]
SkateZilla Offline
Skate Zilla HD Studios
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Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 8120
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
Originally Posted By: Allen
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Originally Posted By: Allen
...I have my two 110CFM fans set to half speed (I suppose that might mean one-quarter CFM) -- i.e. about 55CFM (but, that's a guess)...


TBH I dont see how a Push/pull doubles the CFM ...


Maybe it doesn't smile

I distinguish between two fans with nothing between them and two fans with narrow cooler-slots between them.

A single fan on a CPU-cooler must accelerate the air from a stand-still and into air that is standing still (in the way of the new air). Moreover, the cooler slots provide "friction-like" resistance that must be overcome. The net result is that a 56CFM fan on a CPU-cooler does not actually provide 56CFM. I would not be surprised if it provided less than half that in "genuine" air flow through the cooler.

With push-pull the second fan helps move the dead air out of the way of the exhaust (by providing the push at that point). It also provides pull that creates a "partial vacuum" between the narrow blades of the CPU-Cooler that reduces the friction-like resistance. All this help adds up. To what exactly, I don't know. One would need accurate engineering airflow measurements. However, I would not be surprised if the "genuine" airflow were increased to nearly double the original amount -- remembering that the original amount might have been half the fan's rating.

Just some thoughts. Maybe someone has made good measurements and published them on line somewhere.

Anyhow, push-pull with two 56CFM fans definitely lowered the temperature vs one 56CFM fan in my experiment. I got pretty much the same temperature with two 56CFM fans as with one 110CFM fan. But, two 56CFM were quieter than one 110CFM. At the end of the day, regardless of the actual CFM being pumped, the system operated as though two fan CFMs were additive (in my small experiment).

The above is not being sold as absolutely true in an engineering sense. Its just my "hand waving" explanation for what I observed.


Increases the Efficiency of the airflow over the surfaces of the the heatsink basically, makes sense...

I understand from an engineering point how 2 Fans running is better than 1, but I just couldn't see how some articles and sites came up with the "add a 2nd fan and double the airflow" bit. a 2nd fan would decrease airflow resistance and internal pressure between the fans by pulling air out of the heatsink, and allowing the pushing fan to push air in more quickly and cleanly, and the work load is reduced on both fans and the airflow is quieter as a result. so Push Fan brings in Cool Air, as Pull Fan Pulls out hot air, both fans can operate at reduced workloads since 1 fan isnt trying to do the entire job of pushing air in and out the back end. its not doubled airflow, its cleaner more efficient airflow, and cleaner more efficient aiflow also allows more efficient heat dissipation (heat moving from blades to air), which results in more efficient cooling.

And as you mentioned 2x 110 CFM Fans running at 50% is quieter than 1x 110CFM Fan at 100%.

i just unplugged 1 of my 120CFM Fans last night because it was rattling (or the mount was). and the noise output of my system dropped like a brick.

My brother's system runs 4 90CFM Fans and you can barely hear them, my system with the 2 120CFM Fans inline with the CPU heatink (Intake, Zalman9700, Exhaust) sounded like a friggen jet engine.

now my head hurts... lol..


Edited by SkateZilla (04/05/11 10:46 AM)
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#3260686 - 04/05/11 10:35 AM Re: Another new system post [Re: Lucky]
Lucky Offline
Old Guy
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Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 1151
Loc: Upstate N.Y.
I have a couple extra Antec 120mm 3 speed fans lying around but I don't know what CFM they are. Depending on whether the second fan interferes with the memory slot or not I'll try them in a push\pull configuration. I did order a PWM Y connector also just in case.

On my current system I have 2 120mm fans on the front. 1 120mm fan on the side. 1 120mm fan in the back. 1 220mm fan in the top. Plus the video card fan, CPU cooler fan, PSU fan. Thats 8 fans total. Yes it's loud. All the case fans are 3 speed fans and I have them on high.

Right now the 2 front and the side fans are intake. The back and top and PSU fans are exhaust.


Edited by Lucky (04/05/11 10:47 AM)
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#3261237 - 04/05/11 08:26 PM Re: Another new system post [Re: Lucky]
Thee_oddball Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 25
this fan that fan...push...pull just get a Thermaltake’s Xpressar RCS100 and call it a day smile
http://www.xpressar.com/product/rsc100/rsc100-features.html
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#3261875 - 04/06/11 10:27 AM Re: Another new system post [Re: Allen]
JAMF Offline
Frugalite & P-38 fan
Senior Member

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 2776
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Allen
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
TBH I dont see how a Push/pull doubles the CFM ...


Maybe it doesn't smile

I distinguish between two fans with nothing between them and two fans with narrow cooler-slots between them.

A single fan on a CPU-cooler must accelerate the air from a stand-still and into air that is standing still (in the way of the new air).
Meh, Make sure the air isn't standing still. That way, you can have a push-push-pull-pull airflow going (like I do).



You see, the air gets sucked in from the bottom (through filters) and blown towards the HSF, then blown through and sucked out the top of the case. wink

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#3261924 - 04/06/11 10:59 AM Re: Another new system post [Re: Lucky]
SkateZilla Offline
Skate Zilla HD Studios
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Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 8120
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
I use a Push-Push-Pull Setup, as I cant mount a fan to the back of my Zalman9700, but the 120CFM Exhaust is only 3 inches from it and is inline perfectly with it. so
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#3261959 - 04/06/11 11:26 AM Re: Another new system post [Re: JAMF]
Allen Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/13/99
Posts: 4748
Loc: Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: JAMF
...the air gets sucked in from the bottom (through filters) and blown towards the HSF, then blown through and sucked out the top of the case...


My system has a similar arrangement (not two heat sinks back to back). Rather, a fan blows into the case towards the heat sink fan, then 110CFM heat sink push, then heat sink, then 110CFM heat sink pull, then a short distance 110CFM case exhaust (plus an overhead exhaust). All the 110CFM fans are actually running at about half maximum RPM (I use ASUS FanExpert to control them).

I really like the idea of refrigeration cooling -- as noted by Thee-Oddball. Even water cooling is limited by air-temperature in most cases. Refrigeration has the possibility of "going low".

Thing is, the refrigeration system has to be "powerful enough" to dissipate the energy -- or things may run hot. I considered using a small room air conditioner in combination with standard water cooling plumbing (AC unit located in basement under my office) -- would cost around $200 total with what I picked out. However, too much trouble for someone not an OC fanatic (I am fanatical about other things smile ).
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#3261993 - 04/06/11 11:52 AM Re: Another new system post [Re: Allen]
SkateZilla Offline
Skate Zilla HD Studios
Hotshot

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 8120
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA


Originally Posted By: Allen
Originally Posted By: JAMF
...the air gets sucked in from the bottom (through filters) and blown towards the HSF, then blown through and sucked out the top of the case...


My system has a similar arrangement (not two heat sinks back to back). Rather, a fan blows into the case towards the heat sink fan, then 110CFM heat sink push, then heat sink, then 110CFM heat sink pull, then a short distance 110CFM case exhaust (plus an overhead exhaust). All the 110CFM fans are actually running at about half maximum RPM (I use ASUS FanExpert to control them).

I really like the idea of refrigeration cooling -- as noted by Thee-Oddball. Even water cooling is limited by air-temperature in most cases. Refrigeration has the possibility of "going low".

Thing is, the refrigeration system has to be "powerful enough" to dissipate the energy -- or things may run hot. I considered using a small room air conditioner in combination with standard water cooling plumbing (AC unit located in basement under my office) -- would cost around $200 total with what I picked out. However, too much trouble for someone not an OC fanatic (I am fanatical about other things smile ).


Back in the Athlon TBird Socket A days I used to run a hose from my window AC unit to the side of my case, where the CPU Duct was located, removed the duct, but had the fan sucking in 65 ^F air. I eventually stopped using that setup because I didn’t want to risk condensation.
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