I know there are a few threads dedicated to various efforts with this hardware, but as general rule, I think we call agree a sim forum can never have too many threads devoted to super-awesome Hotas restoration/modernization

Ok, so I'm finishing up the process of ordering a Suncom Hotas from a member here, which by the time I'm done will leave me with two F-15 sticks (bought one on amazon for $40 the other day!). One of them is a Talon , and the other seems to be the "talon light" which has a big red button in place of one of the hats. I'll also have the talon throttle.

I plan to make this a build/research thread, and any help/advice would be greatly appreciated As a general background to my skill set, I know my way around a soldering iron, and am decent with taking apart/reassembling products like this.

My general idea is to use the Leo X-board to run the devices. That said, my questions are:


1. Can I run both A stick and Throttle on one board, or will it run out of switches? (side note, I plan to use my G940 pedals for rudder, leaving them attached to the 940 stick itself, which will be used for RoF and CoD). For example, on the main page for the board, it looks like it only supports one hat-switch (although I'm sure I can assign other hat switches as buttons)

2. Are all of the current pots/switches/hats/etc "plug and play" compatible with the board?

3. Are there any drop-in replacement switches/pots for any of the aforementioned suncom devices? The buttons on the Talon stick are showing age, as are the hats, so replacing them is on the to-do list. New pots can't hurt if they are easy replacements as well.

4. If there are no drop-in replacement switches, any thoughts on where to get switch gear? Preferably in the states, but I'm open to over-seas as well.

5. Will I need any software for the Leo board? Or will in-game options (DCS series, Thirdwire sims, RoF, CoD, FSX) be fine?

Thanks in advance for your help everyone!

1. According to spec:



So, it could be limited as far as buttons go - controller buttons would be ok, but not side panels - , but for axes, you should have plenty to spare.

2. From what I gather any common HALL sensor or pot are recognized by it.

3. No proprietary/'drop-in' per se that I know of; you need to de-solder and solder new switches. They are easily available at any electronics store.

4. Mouser.com, Digikey.com, Newark.com, or simply Ebay, but when looking on ebay search for brand compents, like APEM, C&K, OMROM, NKK, etc...

5. Leo's module is plug and play. Again, as described;

A challenging project.

1 - For throttle you need: 2 axis an 21 buttons.
For stick you need: 2 axis and for buttons in stick handle - if dont change anything:
9 buttons + HAT.
Or 11 buttons + HAT if you modify the switch in middle left side of grip to 3 positions (like in real F-15).
21 + 11 = 32

So you run of buttons (in BU0836) to reuse the 4/5 red toggle switch originally used for programing modes in stick base (in some Suncom versions) and same in throttle base - near LED's.
I suggest remove this buttons and cover holes.

Notice that after plug G-940 pedal (3 axis) you still with one axis available in BU0836 - use to some trim device like in Warthog throttle.

About HAT's, one Suncom HAT is for POV control and need to wire in specific locations in BU0836. Another is just 4 buttons, wire in any 4 of 32 available.

Notice that using BU0836X (instead BU0836) increase number of wires running between stick and throttle.

2 - Yes. Since you is not reusing Suncon PCB and electronics (that are a DOS gameport devices) and instead "building" a new stick with BU0836 interface, you can use any commercial available momentary or toggle switch and pots (or HALL sensor), for example you can replace the shoulder button in top of stick with one "knitter switch" available in L.Bodnar page (check available space first ).

For pot's: Unfortunately Suncom stick use a exclusive oscillatory plate gimbal system (that are good, in same manner similar to one use by Tm Warthog) and need pots with same dimensions of original ones:

Length = 60 mm Oops! 30mm
Height = 11 mm
Width = 7 mm

Wiper travel = ~11 mm

Since original Suncon pot are make in 1990's and are 100k - for BU0836 ideal is 20/50k - you need some luck to find one that match. You can adapt one slight smaller, but if is slight lager no.

I suggest look in Doc'Flyer pot>HALL conversion posted here in SimHQ.

3 - No since Suncom maker dont exist anymore.

Spare HATS for stick is virtually unavailable (unless replacement parts sold for registered users by Thrustmaster).
Loook in www.splash-one-bandit.com - probable the best place to find.

I know a CH model available in Digikey - but is priced:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1114837&k=HAT
If link is broken, search for 679-2289-ND part - manufacturer 500-526.

4 - For Windows, yes PnP. To program buttons use game GUI, or payware Xpader, or freewares SVMapper, JoyToKey.

I have some pictures about "USBerize" Suncom gear posted here, later I link here.

Good luck with your project, and post pictures of your WiP.

Sokol1

My suggestion also would be to remove the fake antenna knob pot and put a real pot instead (to be used with the remaining free axis), for the knob you can contact splash one bandit.

Alright, thanks for your advice so far everyone. A few things:
-the G940 pedals are staying with the 940. For all purposes of this Suncom project, they do not exist. This also frees up three more Axis. All my sims support multiple controllers, so this is not an issue.
-I'm going to stick with the stock pots for now, unless sokol1 your telling that the Leo board won't be happy with them?



also, The HOTAS has shipped , time to look at parts:

So, there's the LEO X-board (simpler wiring than the regular board)

and looking at the splash one Bandit page (http://www.splash-one-bandit.com/parts.html) I'm thinking:

-One of these to match the small china on the front of the #2 throttle


One of these, to match the radar cursor on the front of the #2 throttle, unless the Radar cursor on the site is ready (still shows "coming soon")


One of these to match the castle on the stick. Although I might look for a CH 8-way version instead. The castle on the stick sits right where I like having my POV hat.


One of these to match the large China on the stick (I'll probably use this for trim)


Probably about 4 of these to replace the buttons on the stick.

Of note, the above are 9mm, but there are also 13mm offered on the site. Which size would work better with the suncom?

I'll also probably get several of the micro toggle switches offered I count 5 on the throttle, and 1 on the stick. I figure I'll reuse the switch covers in place now. That said, which kind should I go with? The options are:
(on)-off-(on)
(on)-off-on
on-off-on
Do "()" mean that that is a momentary position ,as in the switch will return to off when let go?
Also, is each "on" in the above list it's own button? for example:
on-off-on=button 1-no signal output-button 2?




Other parts questions:
What to do about adding a dual-stage trigger?

Aggressorblue,



Original Suncom pots are labeled 120k:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8366/suncompot.png

L.Bodnar say that any value from 1kOhm to 100kOhm will work fine. In general small values have high electric consume and high values tend to pick noise, so try whit originals, maybe a shielded (mic) cables help.

Tip from GranBichus in X-plane forum: since Suncom pot have two trial wire these in parallel, you lost resolution (half) but get a more clear response.




The only difference between 4 and 8 way HAT's is how is wired in specific place in USB controller, you can use 4 way HAT as 8 way, in case of CH (ie from Digikey) you can easily change for work as 8 way, already documented:
http://snomhf.exofire.net/8-WayHat.html


Yes, all original switch's in Suncom SFS throttle work in this manner.


ON= button 1 otput - OFF is common wire for button 1 and 2 - ON= button 2 output


Easy to do, too. Just ad a momentary switch, see this how to - for CH, but the principle is same:
http://snomhf.exofire.net/dualTrigger.html
All dual stick trigger sticks (Tm F-22, Cougar, Warthog, X-52, G940...) work in same way.

Trigger in Suncom F-15 have a very small travel (~3mm), you need increase this to add 2 trigger.

My Suncom F-15 2 stage trigger:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7828/gatilho2.png
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7364/gatilho21.png


Sokol1

Thanks again Sokol1!

Regarding hats, are you saying that the 4-way hats available at splash one bandit could also be used as 8 ways?

Put another way, the Stock hats in the Talon are a cross shape. Physically allowing movement North-South-East-West only. Would the Bandit hats allow North-west, South East, etc.?

Oh, I also just placed my order for the X-board. Cost me $82 (stupid US $...).

Costs to date:
$45 for Talon stick (amazon)
$90 for Throttle/stick shipped (SimHQ User)
$82 for the board

For hook in BU0836 HAT circuit you dont need a 8 switch HAT, you need a 4 switch HAT that move
N - NE - E - SE - S - SW - W - NW, that's mean: click two buttons at same time at 45 degrees corners.

Well, I dont know how Splash Bandit HATS are build - if they limit physically the movement in the 45 degrees corners like in this CH F-16 modified by Snomhf.
But, from this page:


Mail them.

BTW - At one and half year ago I buy one Suncon SFS throttle in eBay for... U$ 9,90.

Sokol1

Sokol1 has said it correctly, I use to build the 4way switches that would only actuate one micro switch at a time. I had customers ask about the POV option (8way) so i re-designed the post and now all the switches can activate 2 micro switches at the same time.

Yes, () means its momentary and returns to center for the toggle switch description. Each switch will use 2 switch positions on the BU0836. The toggles from the SFS are "flat lever" toggles and the hats are designed with a slot. My toggle switches have round lever. I'm still working on making the molds for the toggle hats, but can sell you some before the production mold completed.

The 9mm red pushbutton switch is the closest thing to an Otto or Mason pushbutton switch, but much cheaper. The 13mm switch is closer to the size of a dime and a little bigger than a Cougar pushbutton. I myself prefer the 9mm.

I'm still working the production mold for the Radar Cursor. If you can wait a few days, I can have the production mold completed by then.

I have to ask, will you be using the Suncom stick and throttle Hotas or a different model? My switches and not "drop-in" to any commercial Hotas. The suncom split throttle uses PCBs for the switches on the front of both throttles, you'll have to remove all that and then build up the inside to adapt my switches to it. Same goes for the stick.

I'll be happy to answer any more questions you might have.

Steve
www.splash-one-bandit.com

Thanks Steve and Sokol1!

Judging by your question about "drop ins' you probably figured out I was the one who emailed you about two weeks ago. As long as they are all self contained (ie, I can just run wires from the x-board to the hat/button/switch pins) they'll work. The hats will also work. I don't really need dedicated buttons for "nw, se, etc" but I wanted to make sure it's not locked into a cross shaped channel like on the stock talon. What's annoying there, is you can't roll the hat, so to go SE, one would have to push east> back to center> South. As long as I can roll straight from East to South, I'm good (I prefer that vs going strait SE actually).

I don't mind waiting for the radar cursor. The board will probably be a week or two anyway. The Hotas set is due tomorrow, so I'll have a better grasp on what I do and don't want to replace by later this week. What I'll probably do, is figure out what I want each position on the hotas to do, and go from there.

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST CONTAINS GRAPHIC DEPICTIONS OF HOTAS NAUGHTY BITS. READER DISCRETION IS ADVISED


Blame Sokol1, hes the one who wanted pictures


Am I the only one who felt stupid when realizing that the top hex bolts are just for display...after unscrewing them...



The easy part: disassembly





thinking about soaking these parts in detergent to get rid of the earwax like grease used, and to get rid of a decades worth of someone else manhandling them....Thoughts?



I should be able to work with these. It's a less complex system than I thought. I might try Hall sensors after all.


As I said, that's the stick I had from amazon. The Hotas should arrive tomorrow. I can't wait

Nice to see someone else trying the Suncom/USB mod I'm attempting something similar (or rather "have been", as I've had it in a state of disassembly for the better part of a year).
From the SFS stick, I've added another hat to give the same functionality as the stick you have, but I've also done my own dual-stage trigger mod, as well as adding a pair of tact switches to the thumb AAQ switch, so that it goes back and forth as well, instead of just down.

I got stuck when attempting to thread so many wires through the stick handle - how do you guys manage that? IIRC, I need to thread about 18 or so wires down the handle (4+4+3+2+1+1 + 3 grounds - Hat+Hat+AAQMod+Trigger+Pickle+NWS) - how the heck do you guys make it fit?

If you attempt to do the hall-probe mod on the original sliding pots, just take care when you do final assembly so that you get a smooth action.

Couldn't you tie the 3 grounds together inside the stick, and just run 1 ground down through the stick handle to the board? That would only save you 2 wires, but it would help.

If I understand the way the row/column matrix works in the BU0386 board, the grounds can only be common for buttons inside a particular row/column (6x6 matrix); because I've got 15 buttons, I need to spread them out across three rows, which means three separate ground wires.

Well, I'm using the X version of the board, so it's my understanding that one of it's benefits is that is does away with the need for a matrix. That might make the wire problem worse though.

That said, the throttle came today, and I have to say I'm impressed. The thing that jumps out most is the range of travel it has. That should come in handy with precision flying. my biggest gripe with both the logitech g940 throttle and the saitek x52 throttle is the short throw they have. It makes aircraft like the VRS superbug tough to fly formation with, as nailing the "sweet spot" where your holding a precise speed without accelerating/decelerating can be twitchy.

it's also refreshing to use a throttle without detents. No one likes dentents. They only do their job if you can adjust their position. otherwise chances are good their placement is just awkward. Of course, the reason most Hotas advertise them is just so they can put another "feature" on the box.

Another point: Why can't modern throttles just do as the Talon, and place the resistance adjustment on the side?

Pics inbound tomorrow or thursday when I get a chance to root around inside.

Gopher,



Assuming that you use a BU0836 (6x6 matrix) and not X.
Too hook Suncom F-15 11 buttons + HAT (4 buttons) you need:
To Buttons 1, 2, 3... 11 use wires of Row 1 (6 buttons) and Row 2 (5 buttons) = 2 wires.
To HAT use wire of Row 6 (buttons 33, 34, 35, 36) = 1 wires.
And wires of all 6 Collumns = 6 wires.

Total = 9 wires go through stick pole hole, then combine all inside grip accord matrix
an use one diode for each button (wire from Row 1 go to button 1, then to 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. etc.)

That's is advantage of Matrix, use few wires.

If instead you use BU0836-X you need more wires: one for each button + HAT (4) = 15
More one common (GND) for all = 16 wires. In this case use thin wires.

Agressorblue,

Good job! You just do the funny part of the thing: disassemble. Assemble all again is another history.

Sokol1

Doesn't the matrix method also have issues with multiple button presses, where as the X-board could (in theory) accept input from all buttons at once?

Hi Blue,

That's what the diodes are there for, to stop multiple keys. The diode blocks the signal from the board being fed back to another switch through the closed contacts.

Andy

Well, here's where things currently sit:

The Throttle, as of yet un-opened. It's in pretty good shape




With the base plate removed:



All the boards gone gone:


The Throttle assembly completely removed from the base box


This is the inside of the #2 throttle handle. It looks like those switches can be reused.


I held on to all the spare wires, figure it'll be useful for re-wiring control innards


The pot assembly:

So, here's my plan so far:

The Leo board (which just shipped BTW ) will be housed in the throttle, for a few reasons:

1: I'll probably set it up first, as my G940 stick is still doing fine, and I'm not sure How I want to go about doing the Talon stick yet (considering doing a dogleg style extension).
2: As seen above, with the throttle "gutted", it's quite roomy
3: I'll probably use a similar 16pin connector as in place in the Original setup, to make my system modular.

Right now, I'm looking at completely gutting the Slider pots in the throttles, and using the actually Pot housing (not the plastic one) with the Hall sensor. Would the Metal housing interfere with the Sensor? Also, how far apart can the Magnets be?

On the other hand, I could probably set up a Rotary pot with Some RC control horn gear. That said, if a pot has a greater range of travel than the throttle, will I be unable to achieve Maximum to minimum thrust, or can I calibrate out the extra range of the Pot, so a game just sees the physical range of travel?

Actually, if anyone has a link for a guide to setting up Hall Effect Sensors, that would be great, and probably save some time.

Agressorblue,

The problem I see to convert SFS pot with HALL inside is the long travel of wiper.
In any case look at DocFlyer solution for convert Suncom F-15 pots to HALL:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ub...tml#Post3108472
He says that get 100% of response from HALL.

for SFS I think that use R/C helicopter ball link and a rotary setup, with pot or HALL is more practical:
Here's mine: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2904142/Suncom_SFS.html#Post2904142

I reuse SFS handle PCB's with minor modifications, see drawings.

Sokol1

Ok, so I've been studying Doc flyers pics, and I think I can do that. Your mod to the throttle might also work Sokol1. I am curious though, with your throttle mod, are you saying you limited the physical travel of the throttle Handel sweep, or the travel of the Pen stick/magnet setup? I think I have a solution to the latter:

<this arm would allow me to fine tune travel arc, which, in concert with adjustable push-rod horn hardware, would give me slop free operation.


I'm still looking for general info as to what the "rules" are when it comes to placing Hall sensors. Any help there would be great. Also, does anyone recommended and specific type of Hall sensor? Or any Specs I should look for when shopping for them? I had my eyes on these guys: http://cgi.ebay.com/5pcs-NEW-A3144-A3144...812437641712859

Throttle travel don't change, but with different lengths in throttle lever and in lever that rotate Bic section I match the ~90 110/120 degrees of movement in throttle levers to ~40 degrees in magnets (around Bic section).
In lever - made by PCB part - that rotate Bic section are multiples holes for adjust, like in this Servo horn (linked).
This arrange are a "ad hoc" solution.
In the next (SFS) I think in use RC helicopter ball links, more "elegant".
http://img.alibaba.com/wsphoto/v0/384003507/Metal-Ball-Links-and-Bar-RC-Parts-RC-Accessories.jpg

For HALL sensor you need Radiometric type. This in eBay link dont say this, maybe are just switch...
I advise buy one already tested - Allegro A1302 EUAT:
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=allegro+hall+sensor&_sacat=0&_odkw=honeywell+hall&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l131

Or A1321 - that is more sensible. Or Honeyweel SS495/496 series.

You already read this?

http://www.jpfiles.com/hardware/uni_stick.pdf

And this: http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/content.php/172-Mikes-Tips-%28Rotary%29-Hall-Position-Sensors


General layout - with only one magnet:
http://img641.imageshack.us/i/hall2a.jpg/

Sokol1

Thanks for the links Sokol1, that's exactly what I needed

Time to hit the books...

Alright, so the X-board came a few days ago, and I have to say it's a very impressive bit of hardware.

That said, are there any instructions out there for this thing? Namely I want to make sure I don't short something out by putting wires in the wrong places. It seems that the forums on Leo's site are down, so that option is out at least.

Hall sensors on on their way too. Got 5 for about $10, so I can afford to burn one out if I make a mistake.

aggressorblue, I hope you do not mind me joining your topic.
I also just bought a Suncom F15E and Suncom Talon Stick/Throttle combo. I'm looking into modifying the combo too.

I have 3 possibilities:
1. Buy a gameport>USB adapter. Will probably just buy one to try out the stick. The feel is great, by the way.
2. Go down the separate board way, the same as your approach.
3. I have an old Saitek X45 Hotas. Could I just re-use it's electronics and buttons and integrate it into the Suncom Hotas? The Saitek pots will have to be replaced by the Suncom ones.

Just thinking out loud.

Not sure what to do with the F15E stick. It's the same as the Talon one, right, only with key programming possibilities?

I'm using Win7 64 bit by the way and will use the Suncom Hotas for the VRS F18 Superbug addon for FSX and DCS A-10C.

Thanks.

Regarding 3:
http://i49.tinypic.com/2uh506h.gif

Thanks Jeroen!
I suppose it is the wiring diagram of the X45. No clue (very little) how to read it. (yet)
But I'll find out!

1 - These USB>Gameport adapter use 8 bits controller... and dont work for all programmable buttons of gameport HOTAS (Ie Suncom, CH-F16 or Tm F16/F22).

But, since Suncom use keyboard emulation through DIN/PS2 keyboard connector, you have chance to get work axis through USB adapter and buttons - include HAT's - through keyboard connection and use the four modes to program buttons and HAT's.

Sokol1

Yes.
The colors correspond to the wires going to the PCB inside the stick.
the numbers correspond to pins on the throttle's connector.

SH1/SH2 stick hats 1 and 2
S1-S6 stick switches 1 to 6
TH3/TH4 throttle hats 3 and 4
MU/MD mode up and down
AU/AD aux up and down
T7/T8 throttleswitch 7 and 8
JX/JY joystick X and Y axis
TH throttle axis
RD rudder axis
R1/R2 rotaries 1 and 2

The triangles are diodes to prevent key ghosting.
Rectangles are resistors.
U, D, L, R ect are the directions of the hats.
UL, UR etc are the diagonal directions and a combination of up/down and left/right.
The switches are laid out in a matrix.
The analog axes use pots.
They share two lines in common on the outer pins. (5V and ground)
The middle wiper pin has a seperate line for each pot.

So this project is still going, I've just been stalled on the issue of linking handle travel to the Halls in the throttle.

What I'm now looking at, is replacing the main bolt upon which everything hinges with something hollow. I kept looking at the throttle setup, wondering how to get the linkage to adapt to the incredible range of travel, and a few hacks and slashes later, I'm left right back where I started, except with a few pointless holes drilled in the throttle.

The plan is to use the concept behind Sokol1's Bic assembly, except to make the "bic" the very axis upon which both throttles pivot. With magnets attached to either side of each throttle, and the Halls assembled in the middle, this seems the best way to take the massive and awkward range of mechanical travel out of play.

The advantage to this, is it allows for zero mechanical slop, and is pretty clean when all is said and done.

What I'm wondering, is would I be able to get something like say, a copper tube, that's threaded yet hollow in the center, in the same size as the main bolt. I've attached the pic below to show what I'm getting at:


That silver bolt sticking out of the base would need to be replaced with something hollow.

My concerns are:
If the tube is non-magnetic (like say, copper or brass) would it insulate the Hall from magnets placed outside said tube? The idea here is the shaft does not move, but the throttle handle rotates around it (this is the way it is currently arranged)

Agressorblue,

In his collective project, Loubial put HALL inside a aluminium tube:

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=39514&d=1275076883

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=878433#post878433

http://www.checksix-forums.com/showthread.php?t=159606&page=2

Sokol1

Alright, so I ordered some 5/16th tubing and some collars to hold everything together.

The issue now is I don't think the A1302's are sensitive enough. I did some basic testing today, and they appear to have too be to close to the magnets I've chosen (small rare-earth canopy hatch magnets used on RC planes).

That said, Allegros site says the A1321 is out of production, and will be replaced by a new model, A1324 (same sensitivity/input voltage range), but those won't be shipping till October (Allegro is currently filling out orders for the A1321 until then, but only if you were already in the supply chain).

So, should I look for another Hall that has about 5 mV/G of sensitivity and an output of 5v or less, or do I get stronger magnets?

Is not these magnets too small/weak?

Check specs of Honeywell SS495A - SS496A HALL sensor,they are well used too.

Sokol1