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#3203528 - 02/09/11 10:52 PM Re: SAM Simulator ***** [Re: Hpasp]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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Was browsing for more info on the elusive SA-4/3M8M3, instead I found these:

http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega.html
http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega_rapotice.html

Also, I'd be very interested in any information you could provide about the SA-4, such as the reference sites you used while creating the system. I've been unsuccessful so far in finding any truly in-depth information regarding the SA-4, or the 3M8M3.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3203820 - 02/10/11 07:16 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hpasp Offline
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The best sites, that I found, are at the bottom of the SAMSIM homepage.
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

The pictures were shot at Hungary:

Hungarian Air Defense Museum, Zsmbk (Volhov, Neva, 1S12 Long Track)
http://legvedelmimuzeum.hu/en.html

12. Arrabona Air Defense Regiment, Gyor (1S32 KRUG)
http://www.raketaezred.hu/

Army History Museum and Park, Kecel (Vega, Shilka)
http://www.museum.hu/museum/index_en.php?ID=961

About the SA4, I got the usual (~1500 pages of) Hungarian language manuals...



Last edited by Hpasp; 02/10/11 07:19 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3203829 - 02/10/11 07:46 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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PLCC Offline
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Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega_rapotice.html


This page contains a link to an interesting video about that S-200 site: http://www.fortifikace.net/soubory/rapotice_video.mp4.

Can anybody identify the instrument that appears at 2:50?

#3203873 - 02/10/11 09:33 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PLCC]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Certainly.
hahaha

That is the leftmost round instrument of the K9 cabin. (It is not simulated)
In this cabin, the commander of the site were guided the firing batteries.





Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3203874 - 02/10/11 09:33 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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NaiseFail  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
About the SA4, I got the usual (~1500 pages of) Hungarian language manuals...


Ugh.. It's always a language I can't read, lol. After spending a few more hours Google diving, I'm really surprised by the lack of interesting information. It seems like every site I find that actually mentions the 2K11-M1/SA-4 just repeats what all the others say. And so far the only internal images I've found are pictures taken by someone who thought it'd be great to place a massive watermark of his email address right through the middle. Pretty sad as they're up close pictures of some of the station panels..

I am however rather pleased with some of the pictures I found of the missile, a performance chart, and pictures showing how the radar deploys/stows.

Quote:






Also, two new questions. First, after the initial launch of the missile, are the solid fuel boosters ripped off of the 3M8M3 missile, or is there a system to release them? Secondly, what does 1 do?

#3203878 - 02/10/11 09:36 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PLCC]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,632
Hpasp Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,632
Hungary, Europe
This page contains a link to an interesting video about that S-200 site:
http://www.fortifikace.net/soubory/rapotice_video.mp4

Extremely good find!!!
Everybody should watch it.
thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/10/11 09:37 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3203887 - 02/10/11 09:48 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,632
Hpasp Offline
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Posts: 2,632
Hungary, Europe
1, SNR Frequency selector switch.
You can find the same at the Volhov "Z" panel.

Usually guarded so one frequency was used in peacetime, and another in wartime.
(In case the enemy listens before the hostilities begun.)

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/10/11 09:50 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3203901 - 02/10/11 10:00 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Mar 2007
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NaiseFail Offline
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NaiseFail  Offline
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Virginia
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
1, SNR Frequency selector switch.
You can find the same at the Volhov "Z" panel.

Usually guarded so one frequency was used in peacetime, and another in wartime.
(In case the enemy listens before the hostilities begun.)

That's a pretty good trick. Does the Gammon have that ability too?

#3204229 - 02/10/11 06:03 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
All the WarPact, (and I assume) that Western systems were capable of it.
(You need the capability to tune your frequency away, if you are close to another similar system.)


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3627385 - 08/16/12 09:49 AM 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef)  
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Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,632
Hungary, Europe
Lets discuss 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) specific issues here...


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3630510 - 08/21/12 07:10 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Sep 2011
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piston79 Offline
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piston79  Offline
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Posts: 1,658
For what purpose is this button?


#3631368 - 08/23/12 12:42 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: piston79]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

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Posts: 2,632
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: piston79
For what purpose is this button?

Click to reveal..



That is a three state "h - delta h" selector.
Used during initial system check.
Should be in the middle setting during battle.

So its wrong in the sim.

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/23/12 12:43 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3638016 - 09/04/12 12:55 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,632
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,632
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Is a Krug 'engagement' really one missile though? ~ I had the impression (not confirmed by checking the manuals I must admit) that almost all fired 2-3 missiles per target.

With 2 rounds for the engagement, the equivalent SSKP is 83% & within the range of the other missiles.

Obviously in the 'real world' nothing like this accuracy should be expected from any of these systems, especially if you have dense jamming and ARM considerations that might force dropping track, plus manoeuvring fighter targets.


Manual describes different cases:

Using one 3M8M3 missile...
... against a 6g maneuvering target, you have 50~90% hit probability.
... against a less than 5g maneuvering target, you have at least 75% hit probability.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3639105 - 09/05/12 07:36 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,658
piston79 Offline
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piston79  Offline
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Posts: 1,658
Picture
Picture2

It is from this site:
http://pilot.strizhi.info/2006/12/16/1463

Some memories:

Quote:
On Emba shot on a "Virage" - РМ on the basis of ЗМ8. Shot also against reflector (parachute) and against(La-17) earlier.
Here such event. In 1985 shot on "Virage". On the first target any of 9 stations of crew has not track succesfuly. Shooting have stopped - crews - couple of weeks training. As then it turned out - in РМ have not put an angular reflector - no one knew is it on purpose or not..
After two weeks on two targets spent 7 rockets.
I.e. reflection 3М8 is not enough for this complex...


From here:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2005/03/t32120,7--pochemu-zrk-krug-ne-postavlyalsya-na-eksport.html

#3640831 - 09/08/12 08:23 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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piston79 Offline
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Is it nnormal, when the target is in full tracking and switch off the transmitter - to have on display killing zones and point of impact?
Also, still when SNR is hit, the game terminated (that was reported as a bug by someone before...

#3641054 - 09/09/12 07:23 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: piston79
Is it nnormal, when the target is in full tracking and switch off the transmitter - to have on display killing zones and point of impact?


Yes, that is from the analogue computer. (used first time in the KRUG)

Originally Posted By: piston79
Also, still when SNR is hit, the game terminated (that was reported as a bug by someone before...


That is, how it was designed.

If a KRUG SNR is hit, that is also terminal for its crew.
(You are sitting right below the antenna)


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3641332 - 09/09/12 08:00 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481
max2012 Offline
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Posts: 481

Question at KRUG minimum target height of 150 meters.

The report will show here how is it 125 meters hit the Tomahawk!

Click to reveal..


Asuluk training ground.

Practice target:
LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk

2K11 KRUG-M1


00:10, Practice target LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk launched

+++++++++++++++++
00:00:20, SNR ON AIR


00:03:02, Missile launched
Target distance: 28km
Target azimuth: 70
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 125m
Missile guidance method: TT (Three Point)


00:03:32, Missile exploded
Practice target LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 14m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 22sec



#3646984 - 09/19/12 06:40 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: max2012]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,632
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,632
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: max2012

Question at KRUG minimum target height of 150 meters.

The report will show here how is it 125 meters hit the Tomahawk!

Click to reveal..


Asuluk training ground.

Practice target:
LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk

2K11 KRUG-M1


00:10, Practice target LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk launched

+++++++++++++++++
00:00:20, SNR ON AIR


00:03:02, Missile launched
Target distance: 28km
Target azimuth: 70
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 125m
Missile guidance method: TT (Three Point)


00:03:32, Missile exploded
Practice target LA-17K simulating BGM-109 Tomahawk killed by SAM. (miss distance: 14m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 22sec




No. This was the target altitude at missile launch, not at missile impact.

00:03:02, Missile launched
Target altitude: 125m


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3647550 - 09/20/12 02:24 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481
max2012 Offline
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max2012  Offline
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Posts: 481


I realized then show the height of target during missile launch.

And you can make in the report, has been shown to target height, after the destruction of the goal?

A6 can knock KRUG, A6 flying at an altitude of 100 meters?

Tornado can also KRUG

#3647555 - 09/20/12 02:28 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481
max2012 Offline
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max2012  Offline
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Posts: 481
I'll try to knock Tornado and A6 with KRUG

If I succeed, then most error

Because the minimum height destroys targets in KRUG only 150 meters

Tornado aircraft target flying at an altitude of 100 meters, and the A6 is also in the simulator.


Last edited by max2012; 09/20/12 02:28 PM.
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