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#3202301 - 02/08/11 08:06 PM SAM Simulator  
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Hpasp Offline
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I opened this topic, to receive feedback, and answer questions about the SAM Simulator, that can be downloaded from here:
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home


In the row: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F), S-75M3-OP Volhov (SA-2E), S-125M1 Neva (SA-3B), 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B), S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B)

wave
Hpasp

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3202312 - 02/08/11 08:18 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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One announcement,

There were a voting ongoing at several forums, about the possible SAMSIM development paths...

1, Add ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka, with the 1986 El Dorado Canyon, and some War of Attrition scenarios.
2, Add SA-75MK Dvina with realistic Vietnam and War of Attrition scenarios.
3, Add the NASA Digital Elevation Model, to have realistic ground clutter.

The result is that more than 55% of votes were given to option 3.
Interestingly, all the ex-Fire Control Officers, who used to test the SAMSIM, were also voted to option 3, so we were missing the simulation of an important factor so far.

yep


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3202384 - 02/08/11 09:21 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hpasp Offline
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I'm also interested in what ranks would operate the systems. I'd also be interested in information regarding the educational process of SAM operators. What types of schools teach operators, etc.

So some quick history of the Hungarian Vega Site...

During the November of 1978, the decision was made to create the WarPact Vega belt, and Hungary should participate with one site.


1980 November, a Soviet expert team arrived, to find the best location to the site, and they selected Mezofalva.
1985 April, the 3month system training was held at Gatchina (near Leningrad) for 103 person.
(33 officer, 8 nco, 15 military high-school student, and 47 enlisted)

The building of the site was in considerable delay, the original deadline was end of 1985.

1986 April, the two Vega system arrived in 13 train, all together 200 wagon.
After installation, the system was put on alert by 1st of Sept, 1986.

1987 They had the live firing in Asuluk.

The organization consisted 603 person...
76 officer,
52 non commissioned officers
422 enlisted
53 civilian staff

The site was leaded by a lieutenant-colonel, and the two firing battery by Majors.


Last edited by Hpasp; 02/08/11 09:22 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3202555 - 02/09/11 12:36 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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Hmm, I see. Ok, next question!

I've started playing around with the SA-3, as I've never been very good with it and would like to become proficient. While re-exploring the system I found two switches that aren't covered by the manual, but seem to have some kind of effect. What if anything do these switches do?


Does switch 1 have something to do with nuclear armed missiles? That sure looks like a radiation symbol. I can't really venture a guess for switch 2. All I know is the first two positions are the RB light, and the third position is the H2 light.

Also, on the SA-2, why is the radar guidance switch set to K while the missile guidance switches are set to T/T? I still play with it here and there, and I constantly forget to set it to T/T due to the missiles defaulting to T/T. :/

#3202607 - 02/09/11 01:37 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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PLCC Offline
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Hi again! I am loving the Vega. You did a great job.

I am curious, which mapping software have you been using to create maps such as the one above?

Cheers,
PLCC

#3202766 - 02/09/11 06:24 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Curious about the Vega/Asuluk - the search radar appears to be in the centre of the Asuluk firing centre - according to the Search radar and map-overlay.
However, according to the IADS the battery is located some 300km to the SE in the Caspian Sea.

#3202797 - 02/09/11 08:46 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Does switch 1 have something to do with nuclear armed missiles?

No, the Neva system had no nuclear tipped missiles. Its range was too low for this purpose.
Just remember the real nuclear switches at the Volhov and the Vega has no "atomic" symbol at all.

That "channel 1,2" selector is just the inbuilt voice comm selector switch.
At the Volhov, you find these at the middle of the "q" screen, as a long row of switches.
(there, all the cabins could be selected one-by-one)

I can't really venture a guess for switch 2. All I know is the first two positions are the RB light, and the third position is the H2 light.

After the realization of the "ergonomic disaster state" of the Volhov system, (to be fair, for an expert user it gives more options, but for a lesser trained, it is way too complex to use it under stress) the development direction was aimed toward automation.

Even the developers planned that the Neva would launch only automatically when all the parameters are met.
(this was rejected by the military, so the manual launch possibility was included)

Back to the question...

Just remember how complex was the radio proximity fuse setting in the Volhov?
That switch is this at the Neva.

The leftmost setting "RV-SB" is the default automatic mode.
In this mode, the setting of the proximity fuse is automatically depending on the target altitude.
Either "SB" selector block against low altitude targets, or "RV" normal for full sensivity.

The middle setting "RV" is a manual mode, for full sensivity.

The rightmost "K3" is the same as the Volhov, detonate on radio command.

cowboy


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3202816 - 02/09/11 09:36 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Hpasp Offline
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Also, on the SA-2, why is the radar guidance switch set to K while the missile guidance switches are set to T/T? I still play with it here and there, and I constantly forget to set it to T/T due to the missiles defaulting to T/T. :/

"radar guidance switch set to K"
What switch, and where?
eek2

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/09/11 09:38 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3202818 - 02/09/11 09:38 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PLCC]  
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Posts: 2,662
Hpasp Offline
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Posts: 2,662
Hungary, Europe
Thanks.
biggrin
Google Earth.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3202824 - 02/09/11 09:41 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lieste]  
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Hpasp Offline
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according to the IADS the battery is located some 300km to the SE in the Caspian Sea.

Can you please be a bit more specific?
eek2


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3202859 - 02/09/11 11:13 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 210
NaiseFail Offline
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Hmm, good to know. I'm sure I ask a lot of annoying, mostly unnecessary questions, but I'm very interested to know about the full operation of the systems. I'm probably about the only person that would actually love to see the complete systems modeled. Such as being able to preform the missile diagnostic test on the SA-5 missiles before they're fueled, etc. Granted, I've no idea how this could even be simulated as the scenario time frames would have to be huge. Wishful thinking from someone who wishes they could've served on a SA-4/5/10 battery I suppose. ;D

I've also been wondering for awhile now if you'd consider adding a graphically adequate 3d engine to the sim sometime down the road? The way I see it, this would be a great tool for AARs. It wouldn't be necessary to have a 3d view while playing, rather it could be used to show you the fine points of an engagement.

Have you ever played or seen the Steel Beasts Pro PE AAR feature? Basically, it works by playing a recording of whatever scenario you just played. You've a set of controls to pause, play, skip to next event, and skip to previous event. It allows you to see exactly what happened to each main gun round you've fired. I know on several occasions I've missed a target and wondered how I managed to miss.



I think an open-source engine like Ogre 3D or something similar would provide great visuals, while not being too graphically intense for lower spec computers. Just imagine watching your SA-5 rotate and elevate towards it's target, suddenly the support bracket falls away, and a second later the missile jumps off it's rail. You could watch the boosters be ripped from the sides, the missile arc to it's target, and see it explode (hopefully) in proximity to it's target. Of course, you could also see your failed engagements, you could see exactly why you missed. You could see the target start a gentle turn which resulted in your missile bleeding off too much energy. Also, I think most people would simply like to visually see their engagement played out in 3d.

Of course, this could be down the road after the NASA terrain map, Davina, and ZSU. Assuming this is a feature you'd be interested in adding to your sim of course.

Other features I'd like to see would be an improved IADS screen to overcome the current problem of "contact madness". For example, a way to clear/hide targets that have been engaged, and a filter feature to hide friendly/civilian targets. Or going even further, the ability to filter based on the various contact types. For example, I want to see 0, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, but I don't want to see 1, 7 or 9. Even a simple contact viewer would be sufficient to avoid the problem of overlapping targets which denies you the altitude information needed for I87V, jamming engagements, SA-3 engagements, and general manual target radar searches. Granted, I don't know how these systems really work or what their capabilities are. The way your sim displays the IADS could already be an improvement over the real thing. I remember those pictures of people tracking targets on the IADS board with a grease pencil..

Of course more targets would be great. Such as AWACS and other fancy aircraft like JSTARS, etc. And of course, more jamming! I can't be any more specific there as my knowledge of jamming is limited. But I'd like to see what ever kind of jamming the SA-5 jamming selection switches are used for. Also, perhaps the jamming of the SA-2 system? I remember you describing a switch that shows rather two systems are being jammed, one was the missile guidance channel, and I forget what the other is. Granted, this would only be useful if it effects the Davina, as iirc, you said it doesn't effect the Volhov. And even then, only if there is a way to overcome the system jamming. There'd be little reason to use a system if it's always rendered useless by jamming, lol.

And finally a mission editor would be great to have. The ability to have real world airbase locations, and the ability to either assign aircraft to an airbase, or have a OOB for each airbase based on the year selected in the editor. I can only imagine the massive non-nuclear WW3 air war scenarios that would be created! Along with this would be an AI for the other SAM sites. I'm assuming there currently isn't a friendly SAM AI as I've never seen another SAM intercept a target while playing a scenario.

I'm tempted to say nuclear weapons, however that would probably be a somewhat boring feature. In short scenarios or in training you couldn't miss, and in larger scenarios you'd probably trigger a mutual release of nuclear weapons. And once nukes start flying the quality of the scenario would be massively deteriorated. There are a lot of people out there that love the topic of the cold war gone hot. But if you bring up the topic of nuclear employment the conversation will die off quickly. While some nuclear scenarios could be of interest, such as a US preemptive nuclear armed bomber raid on the soviet union, I just don't see enough of a use for nukes to suggest them.

In any event, I look forward to seeing the sim improved, and I look forward to the many surprises to come!

#3202863 - 02/09/11 11:21 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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NaiseFail Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Also, on the SA-2, why is the radar guidance switch set to K while the missile guidance switches are set to T/T? I still play with it here and there, and I constantly forget to set it to T/T due to the missiles defaulting to T/T. :/

"radar guidance switch set to K"
What switch, and where?
eek2


This one:

#3202976 - 02/09/11 02:09 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Amidkor Offline
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I found an interesting video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H1qLoW9hNM&feature=related

In it you can see:
0.12-0.14 - 9K33M3 OCA-AKM (http://www.kupol.ru/system/files/images/mesto%20operatora%20v%20BM%20OSA.preview.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K33_Osa)
4.44-5.10 - S-300 cabin

And a lot of work with the Plotting Table.

#3203196 - 02/09/11 05:50 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Hpasp Offline
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I checked, and the missile guidance switches should be in Half-Lead state instead of T/T.
I will correct it.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3203215 - 02/09/11 06:15 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Oct 2008
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Lieste Online sigh
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I didn't see the misplaced battery again at Asuluk, but it was offset on the first session - the target was in the range area and the battery near max range to the SE. If I see it again I'll get a screen capture.

I do note that the Vega gives a "missile launch" each time the fire button is pressed, but only fires the round and plays the launch sound if the safety is pressed first, and all firing parameters are met. Frequently see multiple weapons 'coming' from launcher 1, even when the system has 1 missile loaded.

If these are 'simulated' shots then they should be distinguished from real 'war-shots' in the AAR - but I think they are not, as sometimes a single target can be hit by more missiles than actually expended.

#3203245 - 02/09/11 06:41 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lieste]  
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Hpasp Offline
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I do note that the Vega gives a "missile launch" each time the fire button is pressed, but only fires the round and plays the launch sound if the safety is pressed first, and all firing parameters are met. Frequently see multiple weapons 'coming' from launcher 1, even when the system has 1 missile loaded.

It was caused by one misplaced "End If".
It will be corrected.
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3203287 - 02/09/11 07:22 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,529
Lieste Online sigh
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Lieste  Online Sigh
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Oops, had a runtime error type mismatch when operating the small controller on the lower right of the "X" station.

#3203299 - 02/09/11 07:30 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lieste]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Got it.
Before the weekend, I will create a minor release, containing all the fixes.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3203323 - 02/09/11 07:48 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,662
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,662
Hungary, Europe
Have you ever played or seen the Steel Beasts Pro PE AAR feature? Basically, it works by playing a recording of whatever scenario you just played. You've a set of controls to pause, play, skip to next event, and skip to previous event. It allows you to see exactly what happened to each main gun round you've fired.

Please do not expect the same features of an 125$ professional simulator, from a free stuff done by one person as a hobby.
sigh

Other features I'd like to see would be an improved IADS screen to overcome the current problem of "contact madness". For example, a way to clear/hide targets that have been engaged, and a filter feature to hide friendly/civilian targets. Or going even further, the ability to filter based on the various contact types. For example, I want to see 0, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, but I don't want to see 1, 7 or 9. Even a simple contact viewer would be sufficient to avoid the problem of overlapping targets which denies you the altitude information needed for I87V, jamming engagements, SA-3 engagements, and general manual target radar searches. Granted, I don't know how these systems really work or what their capabilities are. The way your sim displays the IADS could already be an improvement over the real thing. I remember those pictures of people tracking targets on the IADS board with a grease pencil..

The plotting table cannot handle more than 10 targets.
It was designed to be confusing, to give you the feeling that the Vietnamese felt seeing a 100 plane package incoming.

Of course more targets would be great. Such as AWACS and other fancy aircraft like JSTARS, etc.

There are two AWACS in the Giant Reach scenario. They are at the two most western racetrack.


And of course, more jamming! I can't be any more specific there as my knowledge of jamming is limited. But I'd like to see what ever kind of jamming the SA-5 jamming selection switches are used for. Also, perhaps the jamming of the SA-2 system? I remember you describing a switch that shows rather two systems are being jammed, one was the missile guidance channel, and I forget what the other is. Granted, this would only be useful if it effects the Davina, as iirc, you said it doesn't effect the Volhov. And even then, only if there is a way to overcome the system jamming. There'd be little reason to use a system if it's always rendered useless by jamming, lol.

I think about it.

And finally a mission editor would be great to have. The ability to have real world airbase locations, and the ability to either assign aircraft to an airbase, or have a OOB for each airbase based on the year selected in the editor. I can only imagine the massive non-nuclear WW3 air war scenarios that would be created! Along with this would be an AI for the other SAM sites. I'm assuming there currently isn't a friendly SAM AI as I've never seen another SAM intercept a target while playing a scenario.

Mission Editor is included, but switched off.
I do not want to allow its use, as with every new development, more and more new parameters are introduced, and the old scenarios got incompatible.
Allowing the Editor would mean, that you could only use your saved missions for the current release, and cannot for the later ones.
I certainly do not want that at the current state.

Later, when the parameters will not change so often, than it will be enabled.

I'm tempted to say nuclear weapons, however that would probably be a somewhat boring feature. In short scenarios or in training you couldn't miss, and in larger scenarios you'd probably trigger a mutual release of nuclear weapons. And once nukes start flying the quality of the scenario would be massively deteriorated. There are a lot of people out there that love the topic of the cold war gone hot. But if you bring up the topic of nuclear employment the conversation will die off quickly. While some nuclear scenarios could be of interest, such as a US preemptive nuclear armed bomber raid on the soviet union, I just don't see enough of a use for nukes to suggest them.

Neither I.

Please do not misunderstand my points.
Several feature development born out of the ideas from this, and other communities, and I keep my notebook open, and my pen ready for those.
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

While Fighter Pilots made movies, SAM Officers made History.
(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
thumbsup
#3203612 - 02/10/11 01:02 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Vulture Offline
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I just wanted to express my gratitude. This simulator gives me a lot of fun. It was actually great to see it from the "other side" as I am coming from the flight sim community.

Keep up the good work Hpasp!

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